[TTC Study] Chapter 60 of the Tao Teh Ching

[on the path]

Master Flowing Hands direct translation of Lao Tzu's Dao De Jhing.

 

"In dealing with evil, let Heaven do the bidding.

For Heaven can see all things and everything will find its just reward.

 

In dealing with evil, seek the Daoist Shaman

for he is in touch with Heaven and so is able to deal with evil.

 

Evil is powerful, so avoid any conflict and leave well alone.

Those that dabble in such things will only harm themselves and others.

Then the shaman's job is made more difficult and he may lose his life.

 

The shaman is a treasure to the people, for he calls up saints and

immortals and when the people are starving, he opens up Heaven and beautiful rain will follow.

 

He protects all things within a balance and performs selfless actions.

 

He is a sage and is treasured by Heaven".

 

 

Any thoughts, feelings etc?

[dawei]

It reads like Celestial Masters lineage, starting with the Xiang'er commentary on the Lao Zi (about 200 AD). This Flowing Hands translation sees the Sage as the Shaman master; one who intercedes between Earth and Heaven in regards to evil.

 

It also brings in the idea of the Will of Heaven in a Confucian Way. There is a well known saying: 天道酬勤 - Tian Dao Chou Qin. Idiom: Heaven rewards the diligent. You can google this phrase as an image and see many calligraphy examples.

 

It is interesting that the shift away from Shamanistic Ways, just prior to Lao Zi, expected each person to 'become the shaman' in a sense. Maybe in the way Buddhism says, "Buddha is in everyone".

 

Anyways, I want to read this guys translation more.

[Marblehead]

Hi On the path,

 

I welcome you to add this translation to the chapter discussions that we have been following in the TTC subforum.

 

I won't speak to it now.

[on the path]

Hi On the path,

 

I welcome you to add this translation to the chapter discussions that we have been following in the TTC subforum.

 

I won't speak to it now.

 

Hi Marblehead,

thanks for your reply, how do you mean by adding? Any one can download Flowing Hands Dao De Jhing from his site. Do you mean add the version to each discussion on each chapter? It might be an idea to start a fresh topic about his whole site, considering what he is saying about the future to come. I think there is a lot we all could discuss about it under another heading. I must see if I can scan in a copy of the front and back cover of his original book. Most interesting, because he says that Lao Tzu wrote down the very calligraphy on the front cover.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

thanks for your reply, how do you mean by adding? Any one can download Flowing Hands Dao De Jhing from his site. Do you mean add the version to each discussion on each chapter? It might be an idea to start a fresh topic about his whole site, considering what he is saying about the future to come. I think there is a lot we all could discuss about it under another heading. I must see if I can scan in a copy of the front and back cover of his original book. Most interesting, because he says that Lao Tzu wrote down the very calligraphy on the front cover.

 

Hi On the path,

 

Yes, Aaron (Twinner) just spoke to this. Would love to have Flowing hands interpretation in with the chapters already posted. Aaron set this subforum up so that the initial posting of the chapters would be in an identical format (the three translations). Then we discuss and others add their favorite translations/interpretation and that too is discussed.

 

This format will allow others to followthe TTC here chapter by chapter without the need to filter through a number of threads titled the same chapter.

 

And yes, I am sure that Aaron will merge this in with Chapter 60 as soon as we get to it. But feel free to post any of the chapters that have already been posted (we are at 52 right now) and I assure you there will be some of us who will read and perhaps comment.

 

Thanks!

[Marblehead]

Chapter 60

 

 

John Wu

 

RULING a big kingdom is like cooking a small fish.

When a man of Tao reigns over the world,

Demons have no spiritual powers.

Not that the demons have no spiritual powers,

But the spirits themselves do no harm to men.

Not that the spirits do no harm to men,

But the Sage himself does no harm to his people.

If only the ruler and his people would refrain from harming each other,

All the benefits of life would accumulate in the kingdom.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Ruling the country is like cooking a small fish.

Approach the universe with Tao,

And evil is not powerful,

But its power will not be used to harm others.

Not only will it do no harm to others,

But the sage himself will also be protected.

They do not hurt each other,

And the Virtue in each one refreshes both.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Ruling a large state is like cooking small fish.

When you use the Way to govern the world, evil spirits won't have godlike power.

Actually, it's not that evil spirits won't have godlike power,

It's that their power will not harm men.

But it's not [just] that their power won't harm men,

The Sage, also, will not harm them.

Since these two do not harm others,

Therefore their Virtues intermingle and return to them.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 60 Ruled by Tao

1. Ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish.

2. With the presence of Tao beneath heaven,

3. The ghosts cannot extent their power.

4. It's not only that the ghosts cannot extent their power,

5. But its power cannot harm anyone.

6. It was not even that their power cannot harm anyone,

7. A ruler also does no harm to anyone.

8. Since both do no mutual harm to each other,

9. Then, the virtue of peace was returned to the people.

 

1. 治大國,若烹小魚.

2. 以道莅天下,

3. 其鬼不神;

4. 非其鬼不神,

5. 其神不傷人;

6. 非其神不傷人,

7. 聖人亦不傷人.

8. 夫兩不相傷,

9. 故德交歸焉.

[Marblehead]

Nice and acceptable translation, in my opinion.

 

Have I mentioned that I do not believe in ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?

[ChiDragon]

Nice and acceptable translation, in my opinion.

 

Have I mentioned that I do not believe in ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?

 

Thank you...!!!

 

I don't believe in ghosts, neither, nor did LaoTze. Anyway, he was only use "ghosts" as an illustration for those who believe in ghosts...

Edited August 14, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Thank you...!!!

 

I don't believe in ghosts, neither, nor did LaoTze. Anyway, he was only use "ghosts" as an illustration for those who believe in ghosts...

 

I love that. Hehehe.

[dawei]

It simply amazes me that every translation shown translates Shen (神) as power. In almost any other chapter it is "spirit" but here they want to play on the idea the demon/evil/ghost, GUI (鬼) and it's SHEN (神) as power. I personally find this too much subscribing to mythological masturbation without really understanding these terms.

 

The combination of terms Gui-Shen was most often translated as "spirits" in pre-han. But we do have a few examples of explaining their separate meanings. In the below note that Qi (气) is associated to Shen (most often translated as spirit); and that Gui (most often translated as ghost) is defined as "dust to dust" (returning to the earth upon death).

 

In the Confucian text, Ji Yi (Meaning of Sacrifice):

 

"Zai Wo said, 'I have heard the names GUI (鬼) and Shen(神), but I do not know what they mean.' The Master said, 'The (intelligent) spirit(气) is of the shen(神) nature, and shows that in fullest measure; the animal soul [GUI](鬼) is of the GUI(鬼) nature, and shows that in fullest measure. It is the union of GUI(鬼) and shen(神) that forms the highest exhibition of doctrine. All the living must die, and dying, return to the ground; this is what is called kwei [GUI] (鬼). The bones and flesh, moulder below, and, hidden away, become the earth of the fields. But the spirit(神) issues forth, and is displayed on high in a condition of glorious brightness. The vapours(气) and odours which produce a feeling of sadness, (and arise from the decay of their substance), are the subtle essences of all things, and (also) a manifestation of the shan(神) nature. On the ground of these subtle essences of things, with an extreme decision and inventiveness, (the sages) framed distinctly (the names of) kwei [GUI] (鬼) and shan(神), to constitute a pattern for the black-haired race; and all the multitudes were filled with awe, and the myriads of the people constrained to submission.'" -- Legge

 

In the Leizi:

 

"The spiritual(神) element in man is allotted to him by Heaven, his corporeal frame by Earth. The part that belongs to Heaven 'is ethereal and dispersive, the part that belongs to Earth is dense and tending to conglomeration. When the spirit(神) parts from the body, each of these elements resumes its true nature. That is why disembodied spirits(神) are called kuei [GUI](鬼), which means 'returning' [GUI](鬼), that is, returning to their true dwelling-place. 'The region of the Great Void.'

 

The Yellow Emperor said: 'If my spirit(神) returns through the gates whence it came, and my bones go back to the source from which they sprang, where does the Ego continue to exist?' " -- Legge

 

Having thus translated countless Confucian and Daoist writings, Legge's translation of this chapter goes as:

 

Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.

 

Let the kingdom be governed according to the Tao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy.

 

It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy,

but it will not be employed to hurt men.

 

It is not that it could not hurt men,

but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.

 

When these two do not injuriously affect each other,

their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Tao). -- Legge

 

The Zouzhuan has:

 

"When a man is born, (we see) in his first movements what is called the [PO] [魄] animal soul. After this has been produced, it is developed into what is called the [HUN] [魂] spirit. By the use of things the subtle elements are multiplied, and the [HUN and PO] [魂魄] soul and spirit become strong. They go on in this way, growing in etherealness and brightness, till they become (thoroughly) spiritual and intelligent. When an ordinary man or woman dies a violent death, the [HUN and PO] [魂魄] soul and spirit are still able to keep hanging about men in the shape of an evil apparition; how much more might this be expected in the case of [boyou]. … Belonging to a family which had held for three generations the handle of government, his use of things had been extensive, the subtle essences which he had imbibed had been many. His clan also was a great one, and his connexions [sic] were distinguished. Is it not entirely reasonable that, having died a violent death, he should be a [GUI] [鬼] ghost?"

 

The Liji

 

11, tr. Legge, compounds hun and po with qi "breath; life force" and xing "form; shape; body" in hunqi 魂氣 and xingpo 形魄. "The [魂氣] intelligent spirit returns to heaven the [形魄] body and the animal soul return to the earth; and hence arose the idea of seeking (for the deceased) in sacrifice in the unseen darkness and in the bright region above." Compare this modern translation (Yü 1987:374), "The breath-soul (hun-ch'I 魂氣) returns to heaven; the bodily soul (hsing-p'o 形魄) returns to earth. Therefore, in sacrificial-offering one should seek the meaning in the yin-yang 陰陽 principle."

 

 

Note:

1. In Legge's translation, "Manes" means 'souls of the deceased'; a perfect meaning of Gui but not well known

2. Legge says "Spiritual energy"; the confucian text above clarifies that "Qi" is associated to the spirit SHEN [ergo, Hun], as opposed to death and returning to the ground is Gui [ergo, Po].

3. To me... and it appears to only be me so far... this is a great comparison of Hun (魂=cloud-soul,sky,3 in number) is SHEN; and Po (魄=white-soul,earth, 7 in number; also stands for the dark side of the moon) is GUI. Po is the animal soul of the Hun's celestial soul.

 

I would put forth that the translations above have very little understanding on how to translate the text. If this is about ghosts, demons, and their power then let's just write another script for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Avatar Air Bender series...

Edited August 17, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

It simply amazes me that every translation ...

 

Thanks for your efforts. That was of value to me.

 

I hold to the understanding that man has both a soul and spirit. I have little support for this understanding but what you presented has added to that support.

[dawei]

Thanks for your efforts. That was of value to me.

 

I hold to the understanding that man has both a soul and spirit. I have little support for this understanding but what you presented has added to that support.

I think that most who translate don't really have any soul or spirit left

 

That's why it is so absent from their translations

[lienshan]

I would put forth that the translations above have very little understanding on how to translate the text.

I agree so here is a Mawangdui translation of the first lines:

 

Ruling the great nation is like frying a small fish.

Use this way to reach the world.

The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't its ghost isn't spiritual.

It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man".

 

Notes:

 

line 2: yi (use) omits zhi (this) that marks dao as the noun way here.

line 3: the line ends with a ye marking "His ghost not spiritual" as a subject noun phrase.

line 3: qi marks gui as a noun and bu marks shen as an adjective.

line 4: X ye fei Y ye means like in line 1+2 of chapter One: It is X; It is not Y

line 4: qi marks shen as a noun.

 

I read the lines as comparing the spirit and the ghost of a human to those of a fish.

Edited August 17, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

I think that most who translate don't really have any soul or spirit left

 

That's why it is so absent from their translations

 

Hehehe. That's bad!!! Shame on you.

[dawei]

I agree so here is a Mawangdui translation of the first lines:

 

Ruling the great nation is like frying a small fish.

Use this way to reach the world.

The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't its ghost isn't spiritual.

It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man".

 

Notes:

 

line 2: yi (use) omits zhi (this) that marks dao as the noun way here.

line 3: the line ends with a ye marking "His ghost not spiritual" as a subject noun phrase.

line 3: qi marks gui as a noun and bu marks shen as an adjective.

line 4: X ye fei Y ye means like in line 1+2 of chapter One: It is X; It is not Y

line 4: qi marks shen as a noun.

 

I read the lines as comparing the spirit and the ghost of a human to those of a fish.

your trying a poetic style which produces less meaning than those without a soul... but it's a free country (or forum) to spread whatever BS you can shovel... as long as your not asking others to take the shovel.

 

I assume you do this so people won't have to actually discuss what you write; instead they are forced to ignore it or point out it's outer space origins. I would actually think that it would be better to produce something worth discussing instead of doing it this way... just my observation.

 

I also observed (with a little google help) that you get absolutely no response at another website where you spam their folders with your translations too. With a little time to view, I can see you seem to essentially run back and forth between websites to post and get no response from either site... I guess the benefit is that now if someone googles you, they can see you spam two websites with your translations.

[Procurator]

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You guys get so silly sometimes.

 

But I keep on reading.

[lienshan]

Hehehe. You guys get so silly sometimes.

Ruling the great nation is like frying a small fish.

Use this way to reach the world.

The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't its ghost isn't spiritual.

It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man".

A sage and a man add no wound.

The pair of men aren't reciprocally wounded.

Therefore is virtuous submission returnable.

 

As long as they say that I (but not my translation) am silly

 

Laozi is really hard to figure out when reading the exavacated texts!

sheng ren means "a sage" but a ye character marks the two characters as a subject noun clause,

that'll say "a sage and a man" is the subject, which is confirmed by liang (a pair) in the following line.

[Marblehead]

As long as they say that I (but not my translation) am silly

 

No, I will always respect the efforts of those who wish to translate the TTC on their own even if I don't personally like the translation.

 

But you guys like to pick on each other for some reason, like brothers do sometimes. Hehehe.

 

I still have a problem with the word ghost, of course, but that's just me.

[dawei]

I still have a problem with the word ghost

We may not be able to extricate ourselves from the connotations that comes with the word 'ghost'. But here are more thoughts on how to understand the passage:

1. The 'fish' in the opening is really more like 'delicacy', one has to carefully handle it so as to not unsettle it. A small fish, IMO, is not a very good analogy to use since the smaller the fish the less likely it falls apart, if you've ever cooked various sizes of fish it may make sense (but it's not a big point to push).

2. Food is thought to have a spirit. So don't handle it too much and allow it's transformation to go without disturbing it.

3. Gui and Shen are also simply Yin and Yang as a polarity to spirit. Gui is the earthly and Shen the heavenly. Once a person died their Gui returned to the earth and their spirit lived on. If their spirit was not handled well it became disruptive to others (ie: harmed people). This was anciently called an "evil spirit". Because of the way this was thought to affect people's health; it transformed into "evil qi" over time as more medical explanations spoke of 'Qi'.

 

So the 'cooking of small fish' is symbolic of how to handle people carefully and not disturb (or harm) them, and thus not disturb their Gui-Shen (Yin and Yang aspects of their spirit). Then when they die, their spirit will in turn not harm others. So there is a picture of a Sage (living) who takes care not to interfere others so their spirits (inside a person while alive) do not interfere others (outside a person once dead).

 

When these TWO (or when both) the person and the spirit are not causing harm and interference, there is harmony in accordance to the Way. Thus, their "De" harmonizes their body and spirit to 'interact in returning' (ie: promoting the natural arising and returning without disturbance).

Edited August 17, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Okay. Very good. I can deal with that now. Thanks.

[lienshan]

I still have a problem with the word ghost, of course, but that's just me.

The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't "its ghost isn't spiritual".

It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man".

 

I read Laozi's arguement concerning ghosts this way:

 

The ghost of the small fish being fryed doesn't harm the cook.

One cannot know, whether the ghost of a fryed small fish is spiritual or not?

But one knows, that one's own spirit doesn't harm a man.

 

That'll say the spirit of a fryed small fish harms as much as the ghost of a human.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Enough of the ghosts. I am calling Ghostbusters!

[dawei]

The last line is interesting way to tie it all up:

 

故 - Gu - Therefore

德 - De - Efficacy

交 - Jiao - mutual intercourse or exchange

歸 - Gui - return/ give back / gather together / return (something to its owner)

焉 - Yan - !

 

So, through "De", the body and spirit mutually exchange and 'gather together' as one. The inner spirit is not disturbed and so it returns to it's owner (Gui to earth and Shen to heaven) without causing anyone harm .

 

Lots of imagery, IMO is going on in the very end.

 

Here is Jiao as a Bronze character: Seems to look a Body (or fish) with it's central Spirit in harmony, truly De in action.

 

Edited August 17, 2011 by dawei