ChiDragon Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) 故 - Gu - Therefore 德 - De - Efficacy ; virtue 交 - Jiao - mutual intercourse or exchange; handed over 歸 - Gui - return/ give back / gather together / return (something to its owner) 焉 - Yan - ! "Therefore, the virtue was handed over and returned to....... " Edited August 18, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted August 18, 2011 故 - Gu - Therefore 德 - De - Efficacy 交 - Jiao - mutual intercourse or exchange 歸 - Gui - return/ give back / gather together / return (something to its owner) 焉 - Yan - ! Here is Jiao as a Bronze character: Seems to look a Body (or fish) with it's central Spirit in harmony, truly De in action. 故 - Gu - therefore (preposition) 德 - De - virtue (noun) 交 - Jiao - exchange (noun) 歸 - Gui - return (verb) 焉 - Yan - (suffix -able) Therefore, the exchange of virtue is returnable. Isn't "truly De in action" a relationship between two human beings? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2011 Therefore, the exchange of virtue is returnable. Isn't "truly De in action" a relationship between two human beings? Interesting concept. But not only between two humans but between one human and all else, I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 18, 2011 Therefore, the exchange of virtue is returnable. Isn't "truly De in action" a relationship between two human beings? To me, DE acting only on the human level is really just Confucian 'virtue'; the relationship of men. So that is why I prefer to avoid using 'virtue'. For me: DE is Dao in Man... the true mutual intercourse (or exchange) and return. Ergo, it defines the relationship of man and Dao. I think that I am just making more of the metaphysical point and others would like to just point out the physical, extended meaning. I just didn't go there in order to show the background to what Gui and Shen means. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 18, 2011 To me, DE acting only on the human level is really just Confucian 'virtue'; the relationship of men. So that is why I prefer to avoid using 'virtue'. For me: DE is Dao in Man... the true mutual intercourse (or exchange) and return. Ergo, it defines the relationship of man and Dao. I think that I am just making more of the metaphysical point and others would like to just point out the physical, extended meaning. I just didn't go there in order to show the background to what Gui and Shen means. When we interpret the Tao Te Ching, we exclude the thoughts of Confucians. Te in the Tao Te Ching is the virtue of being Wu Wei. Whoever follows the principle of Wu Wei or being natural was considered to have the virtue of Tao. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2011 When we interpret the Tao Te Ching, we exclude the thoughts of Confucians. Yes, absolutely. And by necessity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 18, 2011 When we interpret the Tao Te Ching, we exclude the thoughts of Confucians. Te in the Tao Te Ching is the virtue of being Wu Wei. Whoever follows the principle of Wu Wei or being natural was considered to have the virtue of Tao. We are talking about english word choice and connotation. By and large, if you use the word "virtue" in english, most everyone thinks morals/ethics. If it takes too long to explain what we mean by a different use of a word (virtue) then it's time to use a different word. JMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2011 I normally use lower case "v" for the virtues of man and upper case "V" for the virtue of Tao, state so at the beginning of a discussion of "virtue" and let it go after that. Using a different word to replace "virtue" might cause too much confusion. Of couse, we could always continue using "virtue" as the virtue of man and use "The Way of Tao" as the "Virtue of Tao". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 19, 2011 We are talking about english word choice and connotation. By and large, if you use the word "virtue" in english, most everyone thinks morals/ethics. If it takes too long to explain what we mean by a different use of a word (virtue) then it's time to use a different word. JMO. Hey, it was not the English word alone. We Chinese have the same problem with 德(Te) also. The first thing that they will think of was Confucius too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted August 19, 2011 We Chinese have the same problem with 德(Te) also. We danes have no problems with 德(Te) It's like dao a chinese character with primary 4 meanings depending on the negative: bu dao = not walking = dao is defined as a "subjective" verb or adjective fu dao = not walked = dao is defined as an "objective" verb or adjective wu dao = not a walk = dao is defined as a "subjective" noun fei dao = not a way = dao is defined as an "objective" noun Without a negative is dao being a noun or a not noun defined by the wordorder rules and with a personal pronoun means "objective" and without means "subjective". Insert 德(Te) in the scheme and your problem disappears Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 19, 2011 We danes have no problems with 德(Te) It's like dao a chinese character with primary 4 meanings depending on the negative: bu dao = not walking = dao is defined as a "subjective" verb or adjective fu dao = not walked = dao is defined as an "objective" verb or adjective wu dao = not a walk = dao is defined as a "subjective" noun fei dao = not a way = dao is defined as an "objective" noun Without a negative is dao being a noun or a not noun defined by the wordorder rules and with a personal pronoun means "objective" and without means "subjective". Insert 德(Te) in the scheme and your problem disappears Did you mean...??? We danes have no problems with 德(Te) to confuse your own self without having a thorough understanding of its meaning from the original source. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 19, 2011 Hi all you ghost busters I've just swung down the pole to serve you up my original post back some time ago!! Yes its Flowing Hands chapter 60!!! CHAPTER 60 In dealing with evil, let Heaven do the biding. For Heaven can see all things, and everything will find its just reward. In dealing with evil, seek for the Daoist Shaman. For he is in touch with Heaven and so is able to deal with evil. Evil is powerful, so avoid any conflict and leave well alone. Those who dabble in such things will only harm themselves and others. Then the Shaman's job is made more difficult and he may lose his life. The Shaman is a treasure to the people, for he calls up Saints and Immortals, and when the people are starving, he opens up Heaven and beautiful rain will follow. He protects all things within a balance and performs selfless actions. He is a Sage and is treasured by Heaven There must be a ghost in there somewhere! Perhaps I could start up a new thread about what is an immortal?? Might be interesting? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 19, 2011 There must be a ghost in there somewhere! Perhaps I could start up a new thread about what is an immortal?? Might be interesting? Well, in my very biased opinion that is a "FAIL! translation. Yeah, me and my silly subjectivity. Hehehe. Too much duality - good and evil. There is no objective good or evil. All is subjective - all of the mind of man. Well, IMO, Saints and Immortals are equal to ghosts. Remember, I don't believe in ghosts so that says something about my beliefs in Saints and Immortals as well. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 19, 2011 Well, in my very biased opinion that is a "FAIL! translation. Yeah, me and my silly subjectivity. Hehehe. Too much duality - good and evil. There is no objective good or evil. All is subjective - all of the mind of man. Well, IMO, Saints and Immortals are equal to ghosts. Remember, I don't believe in ghosts so that says something about my beliefs in Saints and Immortals as well. Too bad these two words still have to come out from your mouth, even though you don't believe them, just like LaoTze does... Happy Halloween.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 19, 2011 Too bad these two words still have to come out from your mouth, even though you don't believe them, just like LaoTze does... Happy Halloween.... Hehehe. If you ever see me change please let me know. I like change but then I like logic too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 20, 2011 Well, in my very biased opinion that is a "FAIL! translation. Yeah, me and my silly subjectivity. Hehehe. Too much duality - good and evil. There is no objective good or evil. All is subjective - all of the mind of man. Well, IMO, Saints and Immortals are equal to ghosts. Remember, I don't believe in ghosts so that says something about my beliefs in Saints and Immortals as well. Hi Marblehead, I think this chapter is wonderful!! It encompasses all that is great about the Chinese perspective of ancient and modern times. I do believe that in Lao Tzu's time, shamans were the hub of most societies; consulted for all manner of things and represent the very nature of balance between energy that has life and a body and energy that is alive but has no body. It is very Daoist, this is why I singled it out. The whole great history of Daoism is intertwined with spirits and Immortals and Shamans. Even Chuang Tzu refers to 'Holymen and shamans in his stories. Daoism is probably unique in the world in respect that it is the only philosophical/religious practice that does not have a God head, but sees that animals and people through the process of enlightenment can become Gods. Chuang Tzu once said that blindness is not just physical it can be mental also!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2011 Hi Marblehead, I think this chapter is wonderful!! It encompasses all that is great about the Chinese perspective of ancient and modern times. I do believe that in Lao Tzu's time, shamans were the hub of most societies; consulted for all manner of things and represent the very nature of balance between energy that has life and a body and energy that is alive but has no body. It is very Daoist, this is why I singled it out. The whole great history of Daoism is intertwined with spirits and Immortals and Shamans. Even Chuang Tzu refers to 'Holymen and shamans in his stories. Daoism is probably unique in the world in respect that it is the only philosophical/religious practice that does not have a God head, but sees that animals and people through the process of enlightenment can become Gods. Chuang Tzu once said that blindness is not just physical it can be mental also!! Yea!!! for you. Hehehe. Yep. Just my understanding but I would say that during Lao Tzu's time the animistic religions were still very dominant. I think the beliefs and culture changed by Chuang Tzu's time but yes, he still did reflect them occasionally. When I started reading the TTC I had already had enough of the religious stuff so mentally I just eliminated it from the TTC when I read it. Did the same with Chuang Tzu. I mean, afterall, I was already an Atheist when I read my first translation of the TTC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 20, 2011 Yea!!! for you. Hehehe. Yep. Just my understanding but I would say that during Lao Tzu's time the animistic religions were still very dominant. I think the beliefs and culture changed by Chuang Tzu's time but yes, he still did reflect them occasionally. When I started reading the TTC I had already had enough of the religious stuff so mentally I just eliminated it from the TTC when I read it. Did the same with Chuang Tzu. I mean, afterall, I was already an Atheist when I read my first translation of the TTC. I think a subject about immortals would stir up a few perspectives and be most interesting to read!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2011 I think a subject about immortals would stir up a few perspectives and be most interesting to read!!!! Hehehe. Think so, do you? I'm sure it would increase my blood pressure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 20, 2011 Hehehe. Think so, do you? I'm sure it would increase my blood pressure. I think the way is virtue is doing my blood pressure in, whats he on?!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 20, 2011 I think the way is virtue is doing my blood pressure in, whats he on?!!! Yeah, the way of virtue will take a lot of stress off us. We old people get to take at least Cholesterol, high blood pressure meds and 80mg aspirin. Goes with the age. Hehehe. Luckily that's all I have to take. Any idea what we are supposed to be talking about here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 21, 2011 Yeah, the way of virtue will take a lot of stress off us. We old people get to take at least Cholesterol, high blood pressure meds and 80mg aspirin. Goes with the age. Hehehe. Luckily that's all I have to take. Any idea what we are supposed to be talking about here? Its terrible getting old we'll soon become ghosts ourselves !!!!!!! We can then consult lord Lao in person and ask him about his DDJ !!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 21, 2011 Its terrible getting old we'll soon become ghosts ourselves !!!!!!! We can then consult lord Lao in person and ask him about his DDJ !!!! Well, there is the possibility that the ghost of the memory of me will haunt some. Yeah, were it possible, there are a few people who no longer exist in this realm who I would love to sit down with and have a nice discussion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
on the path Posted August 21, 2011 Well, there is the possibility that the ghost of the memory of me will haunt some. Yeah, were it possible, there are a few people who no longer exist in this realm who I would love to sit down with and have a nice discussion. Hey old timer!!!, hehe, did you know that Lao Tzu was being offered blessings and believed to be a great Immortal in around 165AD? and the Fang Shih or wu were around many thousands of years before this, moving from the north of Siberia to northern China, spreading down south and reaching southeast Asia. Here is a picture of my Master a modern day Shaman who believes in Huang Lao Xian Shi. Huang Lao Xian Shi's temples are found mostly in south east asia, places like signapore, malaysia Hong kong Etc. I took this photo of Master Tong back in the 1980's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 21, 2011 That looks like a pretty short sword he has there. Hehehe. (Surely just the shadows in the picture.) Yes, I am aware of all that. I try really hard to not say anything negative about that stuff but I don't hesitate to state that it is not a part of my belief system and I oftentimes state why. Yes, I know that many folks tried to immortalize Lao Tzu. I think some have. I have no problem with that as it is their personal belief. Shortly after I joined this board I did mention that after feeling comfortable with the TTC and Chuang Tzu I thought I would look into Religious Taoism but found that it didn't fit into my life, my inner essence, and therefore abandonded it. The only problem I would have with a Religious Taoist would be if they distorted the teachings of Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu and to this point I have not seen this violation. But I still don't believe in ghosts. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
