goldisheavy Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I usually enjoy reading your posts GiH ... but you have lost me here. I mean life isn't always pretty, including the aspect of personal relations. We shouldn't always get caught in a fight or flight response to insults. So we either fight insults by calling people to arbitrarily stop using insults regardless of how people feel inside and then applying brutal treatment when people fail at self-control or we run from them (as in, avoid discussions of controversies, or places where we believe we might get insulted). That's the fight or flight response. There is a third option. We can call it tolerance or compassion. People insult others because in part the conditions for that are right. Without addressing the underlying conditions that lead up to the insult, merely suppressing insults and controlling them by brute force, or running away from them, are cop outs. Edited July 20, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) @ Thuscomeone I didn't know you would take this so personally. I just wanted to point out that your view leads to a deterministic lifestyle that attributes everything to the d.o. process. I took it personally because of the way it is worded, the dismissive tone, and the icon. And please don't tell me to "lighten up." Men say that all time to take the blame off of themselves. Anyway, is it determinism? As in, do we really have control of anything? Nope. Not at all. Zip. Zero. It's all out of our hands. But this is the greatest freedom of all. Freedom from trying to manipulate and control. Freedom to just be. That said, we do still continue to live our lives under the illusion of control. Our thoughts naturally grant us those illusions. But even these illusions of control are simply just happening. But most are too scared to take the plunge and just let go. Not knowing that heaven awaits on the other side. Edited July 20, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Anyway, is it determinism? As in, do we really have control of anything? Nope. Not at all. Zip. Zero. It's all out of our hands. But this is the greatest freedom of all. Freedom from trying to manipulate and control. Freedom to just be. It doesn't sound like freedom because it's not an option to just be in your system of thought. People experience "just be"-ness based on their fate. Some are fated to experience "just being". Some aren't. No choice in the matter. In fact, due to conditions out of your control your state of just-be-ness can be ruined at any time. Considering how inconstant everything is, it would actually be a miracle if you could "just be" for more than a microsecond. Why did Buddha preach Dharma if enlightenment is not influenced by preaching but rather is determined by the impersonal universal expression? You do realize that Buddha has personally negated the view of fatalism? That said, we do still continue to live our lives under the illusion of control. Our thoughts naturally grant us those illusions. Thoughts do not have any kind of power like that. I can think about any topic I want. I can even stop thinking altogether for a time. I influence my thoughts a great deal. Thoughts don't influence me in a manner that's outside my sphere of influence. Thoughts have little power individually and whatever power they do have is derived from intentionality and contextualizing beliefs (e.g., if you believe thoughts have great power, they'll have more power than if you believe they have no power at all). But even these illusions of control are simply just happening. They are not "just happening." They are intentional. You intend these things to happen. You are responsible. Edited July 20, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted July 20, 2011 @ Thuscomeone I didn't know you would take this so personally. I just wanted to point out that your view leads to a deterministic lifestyle that attributes everything to the d.o. process. People with merely an intellectual view of D.O. would think that. Due to the fact of emptiness, this is not so. Malleability is deep and complex in every sentient being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) GIH, you are just like the monk at the end of the genjokoan. "Although you understand the nature of the wind is permanent, you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere." The way reaches and embraces everything -- including personal choice, will and practice. In fact, one's will can be stronger than ever after realizing anatta. Then will is actually free, whereas it was bound before realization. Edited July 20, 2011 by thuscomeone 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 20, 2011 GIH, you are just like the monk at the end of the genjokoan. "Although you understand the nature of the wind is permanent, you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere." The way reaches and embraces everything -- including personal choice, will and practice. I understand this cop out. It's like saying I have free will because I am fated to have free will. It's a rhetorical trick that fails to reflect the reality of life. Buddha had the same flaw as me. He too rejected fatalism because he failed to see how it reaches and embraces everything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I understand this cop out. It's like saying I have free will because I am fated to have free will. It's a rhetorical trick that fails to reflect the reality of life. Buddha had the same flaw as me. He too rejected fatalism because he failed to see how it reaches and embraces everything. It's not a cop out at all. And it's not fatalism. You're limiting it. Like I said, it embraces everything. Everything includes non-fatalism. It doesn't change anything at all. You can have all the intent you want. It contains all that. Edited July 20, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 20, 2011 It's not a cop out at all. And it's not fatalism. You're limiting it. Like I said, it embraces everything. Everything includes non-fatalism. Do you decide to spend time on this forum? Or is it something beyond your control? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 20, 2011 Do you decide to spend time on this forum? Or is it something beyond your control? I do decide to spend time on this forum. But the universe decides if I decide to spend time on this forum. In other words, the universe is expressing itself through a being that can make choices. So it's both ultimately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I do decide to spend time on this forum. But the universe decides if I decide to spend time on this forum. In other words, the universe is expressing itself through a being that can make choices. So it's both ultimately. So when someone commits a crime, we should put universe in jail, right? You're blaming the universe for the way you live your life? Edited July 20, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 20, 2011 I do decide to spend time on this forum. But the universe decides if I decide to spend time on this forum. In other words, the universe is expressing itself through a being that can make choices. So it's both ultimately. This is what I meant... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 20, 2011 I took it personally because of the way it is worded, the dismissive tone, and the icon. And please don't tell me to "lighten up." Men say that all time to take the blame off of themselves. Anyway, is it determinism? As in, do we really have control of anything? Nope. Not at all. Zip. Zero. It's all out of our hands. But this is the greatest freedom of all. Freedom from trying to manipulate and control. Freedom to just be. That said, we do still continue to live our lives under the illusion of control. Our thoughts naturally grant us those illusions. But even these illusions of control are simply just happening. But most are too scared to take the plunge and just let go. Not knowing that heaven awaits on the other side. I wasn't telling you to "lighten up" in the condescending matter. I was just clarifying the tone behind the post wasn't as cynical or ill intentioned as you might have viewed it. I don't see that as the greatest freedom, to let all responsibilities go and blame everything on the universe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 20, 2011 GIH, you are just like the monk at the end of the genjokoan. "Although you understand the nature of the wind is permanent, you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere." The way reaches and embraces everything -- including personal choice, will and practice.. Yeah, that might be your mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 20, 2011 People with merely an intellectual view of D.O. would think that. Due to the fact of emptiness, this is not so. Malleability is deep and complex in every sentient being. I don't know. I think for you, it's mostly attributed to gurus and and teachers d.o.'ing through you. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 20, 2011 So when someone commits a crime, we should put universe in jail, right? You're blaming the universe for the way you live your life? Nope. We should put the person in jail because the person is accountable for their actions. You don't get it. Try again. "That's ok, you will someday" - Kevin Spacey, American Beauty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Nope. We should put the person in jail because the person is accountable for their actions. You don't get it. Try again. "That's ok, you will someday" - Kevin Spacey, American Beauty So when you kill a person it's you. But when you go on this forum it's the universe? Or does the universe sort of confuse itself into being a person, does all these evil deeds, gets punished, suffers a long time, and have to wait for eons and eons to become enlightened back to being the universe..??? Or if it's both, where do you end and the universe begin exactly? Edited July 20, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted July 20, 2011 Malleability is deep and complex in every sentient being. What part is malleable? Malleability is usually a metallurgical term as to how workable a metal is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted July 20, 2011 I don't know. I think for you, it's mostly attributed to gurus and and teachers d.o.'ing through you. . I have direct experience. Don't pretend to know me through reading stuff here, or whatever you think you intuit through that. I've seen directly the big bang, and I've been a Brahma in the higher realms directly. I am still afflicted here through this physical peanut butter incarnation due to various subtle habit patterns, but I do know better. Regardless of whether you see that or not. Like I said, if there was a monistic essence, you'd be able to be absolutely omniscient about absolutely everything that ever was and ever will be as all things are this one awareness according to you. If the Buddha didn't even have this level of omniscience? Anyway... that's enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 20, 2011 "Hardly anyone understands that phenomena are illusions of mind basically just by hearing this kind of logic." "Illusions" of mind? What does this mean? I had an idea or 2 related, that I'm finding hard to put into words but it sort of goes like this. - why would a mind make anything up in the first place ? ("illusion") Notice I said 'a mind' but I'm not stuck on this notion, for various reasons I need not explain here. - if a mind makes something up and decides that it doesn't want to continue making that thing up then what's stopping it doing otherwise? I'd say "nothing" but looking around me says otherwise, what gives? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I have direct experience. Don't pretend to know me through reading stuff here, or whatever you think you intuit through that. I've seen directly the big bang, and I've been a Brahma in the higher realms directly. I am still afflicted here through this physical peanut butter incarnation due to various subtle habit patterns, but I do know better. Regardless of whether you see that or not. Like I said, if there was a monistic essence, you'd be able to be absolutely omniscient about absolutely everything that ever was and ever will be as all things are this one awareness according to you. If the Buddha didn't even have this level of omniscience? Anyway... that's enough. If you have seen the big bang, then how does that help the rest of us, that you have judged as being lower than your esteemed self? What good is it except used as an ego trip. This has nothing to do with anything. The big bang is proven to have happened. So what! You have said the Buddha is omniscient in other posts. You imply that the Buddha had a certain level of omniscience. There are no levels of omniscience! Edited July 20, 2011 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted July 20, 2011 You have said the Buddha is omniscient in other posts. You imply that the Buddha had a certain level of omniscience. There are no levels of omniscience! Omniscient about the nature of things, not omniscient about every nuance of everything and anything that ever was. I've stated this repeatedly over the entire time I've been here and you've argued with me many times about it and I've corrected your assumptions many times. I often wonder if you have the ability to learn anything new anymore? You seem quite rigid in your understanding, of course you probably think that of me... oh well. The term omniscience is an English term, so you keep wanting to project this English term over what the Buddha stated in Pali, and this won't work. It has to be contextualized. They don't mean the same thing. Be a little more flexible ralis, it will help your understanding of the flexible nature of all phenomena in general. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted July 20, 2011 "Hardly anyone understands that phenomena are illusions of mind basically just by hearing this kind of logic." "Illusions" of mind? What does this mean? I had an idea or 2 related, that I'm finding hard to put into words but it sort of goes like this. - why would a mind make anything up in the first place ? ("illusion") Notice I said 'a mind' but I'm not stuck on this notion, for various reasons I need not explain here. - if a mind makes something up and decides that it doesn't want to continue making that thing up then what's stopping it doing otherwise? I'd say "nothing" but looking around me says otherwise, what gives? If it hasn't attained Buddhahood, it has never learned how to see through the appearances of it's stories or other minds stories which cross influences it's stories. Remember, there are endless minds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted July 20, 2011 Which part of a human are you referring to as being malleable? I am well aware of the definitions. Generally primary definitions are the more acceptable. All, from unconscious to subconscious to conscious, even physical. It's all equally empty of static essence, thus malleable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
