Lucky7Strikes Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Edited July 22, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 22, 2011 I am not commited to the view at all. I'm just attempting to point to something. Even letting go just one core belief would send your life into a tail spin. You'd cry like a baby. I'm not saying it cannot be done. I believe it can be. But you have to be serious and understand the implications. If what you're doing has no day to day implications then you're doing nothing of significance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 22, 2011 I would say that true seeing of "emptiness is form" is what really ends all views. If you see emptiness is form as a verb, not a noun, views are finished. There is one thing that is free from views. It is not empty, relative, ultimate, karma, rebirth, no-rebirth. What is it other than you -- typing, thinking, seeing? by the way rebirth is the continuity of a causal process... Happening even now, and occuring even at death as of course the process of karma cannot stop having effect until the process of karma creating stops. Rebirth is not the passing of a static noun entity or soul. As such, rebirth is also a verb: rebirthing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 by the way rebirth is the continuity of a causal process... Happening even now, and occuring even at death as of course the process of karma cannot stop having effect until the process of karma creating stops. Rebirth is not the passing of a static noun entity or soul. As such, rebirth is also a verb: rebirthing. No, "rebirth" is not a verb. Snapping your fingers, eating a sandwich, taking a piss -- verbs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 22, 2011 No, "rebirth" is not a verb. Snapping your fingers, eating a sandwich, taking a piss -- verbs. Yes. What I meant is that rebirth shld more accurately be a verb, just like awareness should more accurately be called awaring, just as wind is actually the blowing, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Yes. What I meant is that rebirth shld more accurately be a verb, just like awareness should more accurately be called awaring, just as wind is actually the blowing, etc. No. Rebirth doesn't matter. Nor does non-rebirth. There is no awareness, no rebirth, no wind. There is just hearing the bird, now. Not "hearing the bird, now." "Rebirth" is dead, "awareness" is dead, "wind" is dead. Typing fingers --emptiness is form. Minister Rikuko talked with Nansen. Rikuko said, "Dharma-teacher Jo said, 'Heaven and earth and I have one and the same root; all things and I are one single body.' How wonderful this is!" Nansen pointed at the flowers in the garden, called to Rikuko and said, "People of our time see these flowers as in a dream." Edited July 22, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 22, 2011 No. Rebirth doesn't matter. Nor does non-rebirth. There is no awareness, no rebirth, no wind. There is just hearing the bird, now. Not "hearing the bird, now." "Rebirth" is dead, "awareness" is dead, "wind" is dead. Typing fingers --emptiness is form. Minister Rikuko talked with Nansen. Rikuko said, "Dharma-teacher Jo said, 'Heaven and earth and I have one and the same root; all things and I are one single body.' How wonderful this is!" Nansen pointed at the flowers in the garden, called to Rikuko and said, "People of our time see these flowers as in a dream." the arising of memory is rebirth The karmic tendencies, habitual tendencies manifesting is rebirth How obvious rebirth is right now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) the arising of memory is rebirth The karmic tendencies, habitual tendencies manifesting is rebirth How obvious rebirth is right now No. The arising of memory is just the arising of memory. Not "the arising of memory." Remembering yesterday, thinking about today. Switching off the lamp next to the bed. Emptiness is form. Edited July 22, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 22, 2011 No. The arising of memory is just the arising of memory. Not "the arising of memory." Remembering yesterday, thinking about today. Switching off the lamp next to the bed. Emptiness is form. Words do not mean anything to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 Words do not mean anything to you. They are tools. Nothing more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Hahahah! What a twist! :D Path of non-knowing merge with the all-knowing! Everything returns to the ordinary mind. When it's been an illusion all along, who's to abide anywhere? Edited July 22, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 22, 2011 No. The arising of memory is just the arising of memory. Not "the arising of memory." Remembering yesterday, thinking about today. Switching off the lamp next to the bed. Emptiness is form. is there no cause for this arising? If you think arising arise without cause, then there is no rebirth. If there is, then there is rebirth. In other words, a process of causal continuity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death. ~ Dogen Note: 'you do not return to birth after death' is not the denial of rebirth, it is the denial of the notion that a soul reincarnate, but the assertion that rebirth is the continuity of a causal process, neither same nor different Do not suppose that ash is the continuation of firewood, but do not suppose that firewood would simply annihilate suddenly either. Not finding entities but seeing dependent origination, one becomes free of extremes of eternalism and nihilism. Edited July 22, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 22, 2011 you do not return to birth after death. You do not return to the beginning of the day at the end of the day, but there is always another day. Ash can be made to return to firewood in the mind of a bodhisattva who has attained tolerance of the inconceivability of phenomena. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted July 22, 2011 They are tools. Nothing more. Tools for what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death. ~ Dogen Note: 'you do not return to birth after death' is not the denial of rebirth, it is the denial of the notion that a soul reincarnate, but the assertion that rebirth is the continuity of a causal process, neither same nor different Do not suppose that ash is the continuation of firewood, but do not suppose that firewood would simply annihilate suddenly either. Not finding entities but seeing dependent origination, one becomes free of extremes of eternalism and nihilism. Xabir, you don't have to take my advice here. But if you do, you should go back and read your blog post about views, as I'm not sure you fully understand its implications yet. That is because you don't fully understand "emptiness is form." Or what emptiness is form is pointing to. You're still caught in a very subtle dualism, dividing emptiness from emptiness. I'm not talking about rebirth or any sort of thing like that. You're starting from concepts, and until you see beyond them, you will go no further. If you want to talk Dogen, you should focus on the 4th line of the Genjokoan. The first three lines are conceptual. The fourth is beyond concepts. You're stuck at the third line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 22, 2011 Tools for what? Living, functioning, discrimination, pointing out that which is beyond words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Xabir, you don't have to take my advice here. But if you do, you should go back and read your blog post about views, as I'm not sure you fully understand its implications yet. That is because you don't fully understand "emptiness is form." Or what emptiness is form is pointing to. You're still caught in a very subtle dualism, dividing emptiness from emptiness. I'm not talking about rebirth or any sort of thing like that. You're starting from concepts, and until you see beyond them, you will go no further. If you want to talk Dogen, you should focus on the 4th line of the Genjokoan. The first three lines are conceptual. The fourth is beyond concepts. You're stuck at the third line. Actually, I do experience the entirety and not just the 4th line, non-conceptually. There are a few experiences involved: Maha, Disjoint and unsupported, and Anatta. The aspect of dependent origination is Maha... this is a non-conceptual experience. Apparently you experience Disjoint and unsupported, and Anatta, but you did not realize dependent origination or experienced Maha otherwise you wouldn't say they are conceptual. This also explains why in the earlier part of the post you insisted on impermanence and denied D.O. When you experience Maha, everything is a process of everything coming together to manifest this moment without agency. Rebirth totally makes sense in this (non-conceptual) perspective. You will totally understand what Dogen meant by: Zazen is “mustering the whole body-mind (the whole of existence-time, inclusive of “A” and “not-A”) to look at forms and listen to sounds,” which is described by Dogen as “direct experience.” If you read Dogen stuff, you will know that the most important thing he keeps emphasizing is Maha. Edited July 23, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Actually, I do experience the entirety and not just the 4th line, non-conceptually. There are a few experiences involved: Maha, Disjoint and unsupported, and Anatta. The aspect of dependent origination is Maha... this is a non-conceptual experience. Apparently you experience Disjoint and unsupported, and Anatta, but you did not realize dependent origination or experienced Maha otherwise you wouldn't say they are conceptual. This also explains why in the earlier part of the post you insisted on impermanence and denied D.O. When you experience Maha, everything is a process of everything coming together to manifest this moment without agency. Rebirth totally makes sense in this (non-conceptual) perspective. You will totally understand what Dogen meant by: Zazen is “mustering the whole body-mind (the whole of existence-time, inclusive of “A” and “not-A”) to look at forms and listen to sounds,” which is described by Dogen as “direct experience.” If you read Dogen stuff, you will know that the most important thing he keeps emphasizing is Maha. Eh, not sure you know what I mean by non-conceptual. I understand d.o. D.O. has lead me to a place where d.o. doesn't apply. It sounds like you're still stuck on certain experiences. This isn't a certain non-conceptual experience. It's seeing what is happening now and that concepts don't fit that happening. You have to stop conceptualizing and see how conceptualizing itself ties into rebirth. "Emptiness is form" is talking about YOU, xabir. Seeing, smelling, hearing, moving your hands, walking. Drop the talking about certain experiences and just Look at YOURSELF. What else do you think it's pointing to? sheesh. Edited July 23, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Eh, not sure you know what I mean by non-conceptual. I understand d.o. D.O. has lead me to a place where d.o. doesn't apply. It sounds like you're still stuck on certain experiences. This isn't a certain non-conceptual experience. It's seeing what is happening now and that concepts don't fit that happening. You have to stop conceptualizing and see how conceptualizing itself ties into rebirth. "Emptiness is form" is talking about YOU, xabir. Seeing, smelling, hearing, moving your hands, walking. Drop the talking about certain experiences and just Look at YOURSELF. What else do you think it's pointing to? sheesh. Seeing is not just seeing (no independent essence, dependently originated), therefore it is seeing. As Diamond Sutra keeps saying over and over again with countless examples: A is not A, therefore A is called A. It is the entire universe manifesting this seeing - the whole body-mind, which means, the eyes, the trees, the space, the wind, everything! You can never hope to experience D.O. if you don't realize and experience this: Zazen is “mustering the whole body-mind (the whole of existence-time, inclusive of “A” and “not-A”) to look at forms and listen to sounds,” which is described by Dogen as “direct experience.” p.s. Maha is not an experience, but the natural state of seeing, hearing, smelling, moving your hands, walking. When walking, the universe walks. There is no point in time where it isn't actually Maha. And yes, concepts don't fit, but it isn't enough just to say concepts don't fit... you need to realize and experience what dependent origination is in real time and at that point concepts do not apply. Even those in I AM stage says "concepts don't fit" and "this is about YOU", "look at YOURSELF", etc. But they know nothing about non-dual, Anatta, D.O., etc. Non-conceptuality per se doesn't liberate, the realization does, it liberates you from extreme views. Edited July 23, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Seeing is not just seeing, therefore it is seeing. It is the entire universe manifesting this seeing - the whole body-mind, which means, the eyes, the trees, the space, the wind, everything! You can never hope to experience D.O. if you don't realize and experience this: Zazen is “mustering the whole body-mind (the whole of existence-time, inclusive of “A” and “not-A”) to look at forms and listen to sounds,” which is described by Dogen as “direct experience.” Nope, not it. I've been through all that. It's just a pointer. This is different. Forget "maha", forget "d.o." forget all that. You can't take them here. Just look! In the whole universe, only one is manifesting itself. What is it if not you? Edited July 23, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Nope, not it. I've been through all that. It's just a pointer. This is different. Forget "maha", forget "d.o." forget all that. You can't take them here. Just look! In the whole universe, only one is manifesting itself. What is it if not you? Yes. But what I am saying is that it is also necessary to see in real time the interconnectedness of everything... D.O. is not a concept, D.O. is a living reality, and of course it is beyond extremes, empty, unlocatable, etc, but this doesn't deny D.O. as a living reality so to speak... in the same way that seeing and hearing is not a concept but a living reality to you. Edited July 23, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Yes. But what I am saying is that it is also necessary to see in real time the interconnectedness of everything... D.O. is not a concept, D.O. is a living reality, and of course it is beyond extremes, empty, unlocatable, etc, but this doesn't deny D.O. as a living reality so to speak... in the same way that seeing and hearing is a living reality to you. d.o. is a step along the way. It's not important now. When your hand moves, not when "you" move your hand, is that emptiness is form? Edited July 23, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) d.o. is a step along the way. It's not important now. Actually it is always important... all realizations and experiences are important. Even I AM is important, you know. Even non-dual and anatta is important. Also, Thusness has suggested to me to tell you to do reversing of insights... which I have informed you many days back. When your hand moves, not when "you" move your hand, is that emptiness is form?Yes. Edited July 23, 2011 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thuscomeone Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Actually it is always important... all realizations and experiences are important. Also, Thusness has suggested to me to tell you to do reversing of insights... which I have informed you many days back. Yes. I'm still not sure if you understand. d.o. IS a concept. A concept which points to something beyond concepts. Concepts can only point. I have done that. I went through all of them, wrote them down and made sure to point out how they all eradicate duality, bit by it. But there is more duality to be eradicated. And I'm not sure if you're aware of it. Edited July 23, 2011 by thuscomeone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
