[TTC Study] Chapter 52 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 52

 

 

John Wu

 

All under Heaven have a common Beginning.

This Beginning is the Mother of the world.

Having known the Mother,

We may proceed to know her children.

Having known the children,

We should go back and hold on to the Mother.

In so doing, you will incur no risk

Even though your body be annihilated.

Block all the passages!

Shut all the doors!

And to the end of your days you will not be worn out.

Open the passages!

Multiply your activities!

And to the end of your days you will remain helpless.

To see the small is to have insight.

To hold on to weakness is to be strong.

Use the lights, but return to your insight.

Do not bring calamities upon yourself.

This is the way of cultivating the Changeless.

 

 

English/Feng

 

The beginning of the universe

Is the mother of all things.

Knowing the mother, one also knows the sons.

Knowing the sons, yet remaining in touch with the mother,

Brings freedom from the fear of death.

Keep your mouth shut,

Guard the senses,

And life is ever full.

Open your mouth,

Always be busy,

And life is beyond hope.

Seeing the small is insight;

Yielding to force is strength.

Using the outer light, return to insight,

And in this way be saved from harm.

This is learning constancy.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

 

The world had a beginning,

Which can be considered the mother of the world.

Having attained the mother, in order to understand her children.

If you return and hold on to the mother, till the end of your life you'll suffer no harm.

Block up the holes;

Close the doors;

And till the end of your life you'll not labor.

Open the holes;

Meddle in affairs;

And till the end of your life you'll not be saved.

To receive the small is called "discernment."

To hold on to the pliant is called "strength."

If you use the rays to return to the bright light,

You'll not abandon your life to peril.

This is called Following the Constant.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[Marblehead]

Well. Seems that no one wishes to talk about Chapter 52.

 

Except for me.

 

I will use John Wu's translation for what I wish to speak to:

 

All under Heaven have a common Beginning.

This Beginning is the Mother of the world.

Having known the Mother,

We may proceed to know her children.

Having known the children,

We should go back and hold on to the Mother.

 

Is this the way it really works? I am referring to lines 3 and 4.

 

Do we really know Tao before we know the manifest things? I think that it works the opposite. When we are born our entire life is based in the Manifest world - the material. Isn't it a bit later in life that we start asking questions about spirituality?

 

Now yes, if we are referring to our physical mother then it is true that we know our mother first and then the rest of the physical world. But we can't go back to our physical mother. We cannot become unborn.

 

Lines 1 and 2 as well as lines 5 and 6 are valid because there was a beginning (1 & 2) and we seek a return (5 & 6).

[dawei]

The only issues I have with this chapter is the opening. Although "beginning" is widely used, I like "origin or source". Also, the character for "mother" can also mean "source". So to me, this seems preferable. Here are examples:

 

Hinton:

There's a source all beneath heaven shares;

call it the mother of all beneath heaven.

 

Liao:

Since the origin of the universe is the source of all things knowing the mother one also knows the son.

 

Legge:

(The Dao) which originated all under the sky is to be considered as the mother of them all.

When the mother is found, we know what her children should be.

 

----

 

Han Fei, one of the very earliest to write on the Lao Zi, equated "mother" with Dao.

 

As the mother is figurative, so is the reference "children". Wang Bi relates the mother as the "root" and the children as "stems and branches".

 

----

 

The next two lines are sometimes translated awkwardly but here is Legge:

 

When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. When one knows that he is his mother's child, and proceeds to guard (the qualities of) the mother that belong to him, to the end of his life he will be free from all peril.

Edited July 21, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

The only issues I have with this chapter is the opening.

 

Hinton:

There's a source all beneath heaven shares;

call it the mother of all beneath heaven.

 

I actually rather like this translation.

 

Yes, I think nearly all translators use 'mother' as a name for Dao.

 

Again, I think this is one of the reasons it was so easy to merge Lao Tzu's writings into religious Daoism.

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

I think the line that is curious for me is the one that goes "Having known the Mother, We may proceed to know her children." If only because Henricks uses a very different word to talk about this process, "attain". So my question is, do we "know" the mother or "attain" the mother? And if so, what is the difference?

 

Aaron

Edited July 21, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hello folks,

 

I think the line that is curious for me is the one that goes "Having known the Mother, We may proceed to know her children." If only because Henricks uses a very different word to talk about this process, "attain". So my question is, do we "know" the mother or "attain" the mother? And if so, what is the difference?

 

Aaron

 

Yes, that is basically my problem. Yes, we are of the mother. But do we really know the mother? (Speaking of Dao here, not our physical mother.) And I agree, can we know the unknowable? I think not. We can know her children (the ten thousand things) but, yes, I suppose we 'attain' the mother after knowing her children.

[dawei]

The character (得 - De) means:

to get / to obtain / to acquire / to gain / to attain / to effect / to win / complacent / agreement / harmony / can / may / to be able to /

 

Heshang Gong's manuscript had the character "to know" instead.

 

If one obtains knowledge of something, it is 'to know it'. So in context, this "De" can mean to learn as well (if you obtained some teaching).

 

I think there is something more experiential implied than the basic word 'to know'.

 

Hinton has:

Once you fathom the mother you know the children.

And once you understand the child you abide in the mother.

 

You can see he makes a transition of knowing the child to understanding the child, even though it is the same character 'to know'.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 52
1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.
2. If we've discovered its root, then we'll recognized all things.
3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root,
4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.
5. Block its gap to desires,
6. Close its door of desires,
7. Then, there will be no disturbance throughout life.
8. Open its gap to desires,
9. Increasing its distractions,
10. Then, it cannot be helped.
11. Observe it microscopically, it was said to be comprehensible.
12. One can guard its softness was said to be strong.
13. Utilize the light(of wisdom),
14. It was considered to be the inner wisdom.
15. To keep one out of trouble,
16. It was considered to be following the normal routine.


************************
52
1. 天下有始，以為天下母。
1. There was a beginning in the world, let it be the mother of all things in the world.
1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.

2. 既得其母，以知其子。
2. Since we have gained their mother, then we will know her children.
2. If we know the root, then we'll recognized all things.

3. 既知其子，復守其母，
3. Since we know her children, in return, we'll guard their mother.
3. If we recognized all things and hold on to its root,

4. 沒身不殆。
4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

5. 塞其兌，
5. Blunt its sharpness
5. Block its gap to desires,

6. 閉其門，
6. Close its door of desires,

7. 終身不勤。
7. Then, there will be no disturbance throughout life.

8. 開其兌，
8. Open its gap to desires,

9. 濟其事，
9. Increasing its distractions,

10.終身不救。
10. Then, it cannot be helped.

11.見其小曰明，
11. Observe it microscopically, it was said to be comprehensible.

12.守柔曰強。
12. One can guard its softness was said to be strong.

13.用其光，
13. Utilize the light(of wisdom),

14.復歸其明，
14. It was considered to be the inner wisdom.

15.無遺身殃。
15. To keep one out of trouble,

16.是為習常。
16. It was considered to be following the normal routine.

Edited December 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Chapter 52

1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.

2. If we know its root, then we'll recognized all things.

3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root,

4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

 

In my mind this would be perfect if the word "know" in line 2 were replace with "recognize" or some similar word.

[ChiDragon]

In my mind this would be perfect if the word "know" in line 2 were replace with "recognize" or some similar word.

Chapter 52

1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.

2. If we've discovered its root, then we'll recognized all things.

3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root,

4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

5. .....

[Marblehead]

Chapter 52

1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.

2. If we've discovered its root, then we'll recognized all things.

3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root,

4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

5. .....

 

Purrrrrrr-fect!

[on the path]

Just add Flowing Hands version to the discussion

 

CHAPTER 52

The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe,

the Universe is born from the Dao.

From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists.

It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth.

The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery.

Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

[Marblehead]

Just add Flowing Hands version to the discussion

 

Nice.

[dawei]

Just add Flowing Hands version to the discussion

 

CHAPTER 52

The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe,

the Universe is born from the Dao.

From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists.

It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth.

The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery.

Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

I don't like the use of "born" but I see that he is at least generally consistent in that usage throughout his translations.

 

I also think he emphasizes "the" Dao quite often. So he probably gives more of a physical connotation to Dao than I would.

 

Nonetheless, I like reading his translations.

[Apech]

Sorry came late to the discussion :

 

I think it means that the way to know the children is to know the mother. Look at the 10k things and wonder 'what, why, how?' ... the answer is the mother.

[dust]

Well... the original was something very different. The GD is short and to the point:

 

 

閟丌門 Shut their gates,

賽丌兌 Encourage their religion,

冬身不嵍 And you shall live easily;

啟丌兌 Awaken them from religion,

賽丌事 Encourage them to action,

冬身不逨 And you will never rest

 

 

 

兌 here is 辶 + 兌

嵍 here is 矛 + 山

 

兌 originally meaning prayer,worship, and 辶 (walking/doing) signifying active prayer: religion

 

The rest of the meaning follows on once that's figured out.

 

Encouraging religion kind of means blunting edges/blocking holes, I suppose, but in a way that actually makes sense.

 

Yet another encouragement for keeping the people stupid/ignorant in order to keep a state harmonious.

[Marblehead]

 

Yet another encouragement for keeping the people stupid/ignorant in order to keep a state harmonious.

That was my thought after reading the above translation. And another reason why it can be said that Lao Tzu was writing for the rulers and would-be rulers of his time.

[Taoist Texts]

ahh thats the reason behind the war on xmas

 

[dust]

Hmm... I thought it would be met with more scepticism...

 

 

Admittedly, the 兌 辶 = religion is guesswork, based on the fact that it makes sense.

 

There needs to be a way of translating these constructions other than with obscure, nonsensical phrases like

 

Keep your mouth shut, Guard the senses, And life is ever full (Feng)

 

and

 

Open the holes, Excel in affairs, And you will never reach the end of your days (Henricks)

 

... I mean...come on.. what do these things mean??

 

 

 

I'd be curious to know how/why the GD version is so different to the received. When was the extra stuff added? Or if the GD version is incomplete, why is it?

[Taoist Texts]

I'd be curious to know how/why the GD version is so different to the received. When was the extra stuff added? Or if the GD version is incomplete, why is it?

Its because the GD was organised differently. E.g. this chpt of GD is limited to neigong work. While the others are synthetic - the neigong paragraphs and the politics paragraphs were put in the same chapters based on common principles behind those both.

[dust]

Neigong eh?

 

I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

[dust]

Another thing:

 

Obviously it was organized differently. What does saying that actually explain? Every chapter in the TTC can be seen to be 'synthetic', to have different threads running through -- political/metaphysical/philosophical/whatever.

 

The question is why the GD was organized differently. And why, in the case of this particular chapter, so much was left out -- or added later.

 

 

As far as I'm aware so far, there's no neigong instruction in any other GD chapter. The only connectable passage is 55, which talks of 心史气 controlling the breath/qi with the mind. That chapter is troublesome.. all the rest are split between politics/guidance on ruling, and metaphysics/descriptions of Dao.

 

I'd suggest that the later versions of the TTC have been watered down by religious Taoists in order to explain away the overtly authoritarian messages in so many chapters. As they couldn't completely change traditionally accepted lines, they added lines here and there, and characters evolved slightly away from the original ones.

[dawei]

Another thing:

 

Obviously it was organized differently. What does saying that actually explain? Every chapter in the TTC can be seen to be 'synthetic', to have different threads running through -- political/metaphysical/philosophical/whatever.

 

Good question and point... there are many threads which connect on some deeper level (I think TT suggested as much).

 

The question is why the GD was organized differently. And why, in the case of this particular chapter, so much was left out -- or added later.

 

The 'why' has been asked since the discovery... why did this tutor (if that is what he was) have just these chapters? As a bookish guy (sorry, I assume a man), he had many philosophical works. As he did not have the entire Confucian canon (but did have quite a few), he did not have anything daoist beyond the LZ and TYSS. IMO, it is best to just accept this was his 'collection'. I have my own collection of works as well.

 

As far as I'm aware so far, there's no neigong instruction in any other GD chapter. The only connectable passage is 55, which talks of 心史气 controlling the breath/qi with the mind. That chapter is troublesome.. all the rest are split between politics/guidance on ruling, and metaphysics/descriptions of Dao.

 

I think some will not really connect to the deepest parts of the chapters where neigong exists. They are there but not everyone will 'see' it.

 

 

I'd suggest that the later versions of the TTC have been watered down by religious Taoists in order to explain away the overtly authoritarian messages in so many chapters. As they couldn't completely change traditionally accepted lines, they added lines here and there, and characters evolved slightly away from the original ones.

 

It seems from the start, there are changes... and by the time Wang Bi gets it, he transforms lot of ideas about Dao... Young and brilliant, but he was a Confucian... lest we forget.

 

I trust Wang Bi the least. I think we should just trash the received version... but that is me.

[dawei]

Neigong eh?

 

I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

 

I'll comment on the first two lines alone:

 

閟丌門 = hidden or closed gates... but what gates?

 

It is used in the Shijing to mean a closed off temple [doing its thing]... what do temples do when closed off?

 

purification

 

賽丌兌 - Realize/Rest in the release of thoughts and emotions (ties to first line)

[dust]

The 'why' has been asked since the discovery... why did this tutor (if that is what he was) have just these chapters? As a bookish guy (sorry, I assume a man), he had many philosophical works. As he did not have the entire Confucian canon (but did have quite a few), he did not have anything daoist beyond the LZ and TYSS. IMO, it is best to just accept this was his 'collection'. I have my own collection of works as well.

 

Did people just pick chapters out that they liked and ignore the rest? And of those chapters, just pick out the lines they liked and ignore the rest?

 

Well, I guess they did, sometimes.... It's the kind of thing I'd do, come to think of it...

 

 

 

I think some will not really connect to the deepest parts of the chapters where neigong exists. They are there but not everyone will 'see' it.

 

People continue to claim that there is religious, mystical, and neigong -related stuff in the GD, but I have yet to see any real evidence of such.

 

My GD translations started based on discussions in this very forum, guided by you guys. If I had any preconceived ideas about its content, they were certainly not that it was a manual of leadership/politics/philosophy. I assumed that there would be at least some religious stuff, to be honest -- possibly some mention of spirits and gods and meditation and ritual.

 

What I've found is almost entirely pure philosophy. I didn't try to interpret it like that; that's just how I've found it. I'm trying to 'see' the other stuff that's apparently there, but...

 

 

 

閟丌門 = hidden or closed gates... but what gates?

 

Just.... gates.

 

Literally all the gates. Close off the towns, close off the nation. Don't let any dangerous ideas in. Keep the people worshiping their gods and farming their land.

 

Something China is fairly well-known for, no?

 

Great walls built along thousands of miles to keep out intruders... burning books and building temples... a great nation of peasants unified under great emperors, closed off to the outside world for centuries...?

 

 

 

賽丌兌 - Realize/Rest in the release of thoughts and emotions (ties to first line)

 

Can you explain how you got the meanings for these?