[TTC Study] Chapter 52 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

Did people just pick chapters out that they liked and ignore the rest? And of those chapters, just pick out the lines they liked and ignore the rest?

 

Well, I guess they did, sometimes.... It's the kind of thing I'd do, come to think of it...

 

If he was a tutor, then he was responsible to teach from a library of books... I would assume a library of someone's choosing... but this is mostly speculation as nobody really knows the answer.

 

 

Can you explain how you got the meanings for these?

 

賽丌兌 - Realize/Rest in the release of thoughts and emotions (ties to first line)

 

As mentioned in Hendrick's GD, some suggested 賽 should be another character to mean Realize/Rest in;

 

Another reference I found has 兌 as dispersion or dissipation.

 

I am not sure I agree with it, but I can find where such an idea would come from.

 

 

 

BTW: Defensive, walled settlements do go back to neolithic times... but the 'great wall' proper was not begun till the Qin unification (221bc)... and that was just a small start...

[dust]

Helpful

 

 

I mean why do you think those characters mean those things?? Aside from tying them to the first line.

 

Are you interpreting 兑 as 悦 ?

[dawei]

I was simply using another's gloss on the character... I did not have any other character exactly in mind.

 

 

I added comments above.

[ChiDragon]

Did people just pick chapters out that they liked and ignore the rest? And of those chapters, just pick out the lines they liked and ignore the rest?

 

Well, I guess they did, sometimes.... It's the kind of thing I'd do, come to think of it...

 

 

It seems like that GD-A is a report that someone was doing a research by copying some chapters about a particular subject. E.g. The first part was the chapters pertaining to the description of Tao. The second part was about ruling a country and the cultivation of the principles of Tao.

 

The GD-B are the codex of the chapters pertaining to cultivation. Finally, GD-C are the chapters about ruling a country.

[dawei]

It seems like that GD-A is a report that someone was doing a research by copying some chapters about a particular subject. E.g. The first part was the chapters pertaining to the description of Tao. The second part was about ruling a country and the cultivation of the principles of Tao.

 

The GD-B are the codex of the chapters pertaining to cultivation. Finally, GD-C are the chapters about ruling a country.

 

I think this is a good thematic breakdown... except GD-C codex should exclude Tai Yi Sheng Shui, which is cosmological.

[dust]

It seems like that GD-A is a report that someone was doing a research by copying some chapters about a particular subject. E.g. The first part was the chapters pertaining to the description of Tao. The second part was about ruling a country and the cultivation of the principles of Tao.

 

The GD-B are the codex of the chapters pertaining to cultivation. Finally, GD-C are the chapters about ruling a country.

 

I know this is what people say, but：

 

if you actually look at the chapters in the order they appear in the GD, you won't find such a separation.

 

I mean, look at it honestly, without some preconceived idea that it must be broken up in this way, and you won't find it to be.

 

Because it's not. Any appearance of such is easily attributable to coincidence.

 

example: the first few chapters of each section (numbered as they are in the received version)

 

 

甲

 

19, 66, 46, 30, 15, 64, 37, 63, 2 etc

 

19 is about ruling

66 is about ruling

46 is about personal cultivation or ruling

30 is about ruling

15 is about the ancients

64 is about personal cultivation or ruling

37 is about ruling and the Way

63 is about cultivation / being sagely / can be applied to ruling

2 is about duality / cultivation / can be applied to ruling

etc

 

 

乙

 

59, 48, 20 etc

 

59 is about ruling

48 is about personal cultivation / the Way

20 can be applied to personal cultivation and ruling

etc

 

 

丙

 

17, 18, 35 etc

 

17 is about ruling

18 is about ruling

35 is about ruling and personal cultivation

etc

[ChiDragon]

dusty....
That is exactly how I have them outlined. You don't think that they were copied from the original...??? Where ever the original might be....!!!

There are two parts to GD-A. You were only given part 2.

Part 1 contains Chapters 25, 5, 16, 55 and 40. They are the descriptions about Tao.

Edited December 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I know this is what people say, but：

 

if you actually look at the chapters in the order they appear in the GD, you won't find such a separation.

 

I mean, look at it honestly, without some preconceived idea that it must be broken up in this way, and you won't find it to be.

 

Because it's not. Any appearance of such is easily attributable to coincidence.

 

example: the first few chapters of each section (numbered as they are in the received version)

 

Hendrick's breaks down part A further, as you did... but at some point, one breaks it down into no relationships at all... So one has to simply go with something thematic... or not.

 

IMO, I never worry or think about any thematic aspect to the GD.

[Taoist Texts]

People continue to claim that there is religious, mystical, and neigong -related stuff in the GD, but I have yet to see any real evidence of such.

....

 

What I've found is almost entirely pure philosophy.

whats a pure philosophy and why anyone ever would need either to write or to read it?

[Taoist Texts]

Neigong eh?

 

I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

Yes excellent question. To start some definitions and background are in order.

Definition: Neigong would be any exersise that is conducted within the bodymind with a view to get tangible benefits.

 

Background:

 

The Chinese word wu 巫 "spirit medium; shaman; shamaness; sorcerer; doctor; proper names" was first recorded during the Shang Dynasty (ca. 1600-1046 BCE), when a wucould be either sex. During the late Zhou Dynasty (1045-256 BCE) wu was used to specify "female shaman; sorceress" as opposed to xi 覡 "male shaman; sorcerer" (which first appears in the 4th century BCE Guoyu). Other sex-differentiated shaman names include nanwu 男巫 for "male shaman; sorcerer; wizard"; and nüwu 女巫, wunü 巫女, wupo 巫婆, and wuyu 巫嫗 for "female shaman; sorceress; witch".

Wu is used in compounds like wugu 巫蠱 "sorcery; cast harmful spells", wushen 巫神 or shenwu 神巫 (with shen "spirit; god") "wizard; sorcerer", and wuxian 巫仙 (with xian"immortal; alchemist") "immortal shaman".

 

 

The first Chinese dictionary of characters, the (121 CE) Shuowen Jiezi defines wu as zhu 祝 "sacrifice; prayer master; invoker; priest" (祝也 女能以舞降神者也 象从工 两人舞形, tr. Hopkins 1920:432) and analyzes the Seal graph, "An Invoker. A woman who can serve the Invisible, and by posturing bring down the spirits. Depicts a person with two sleeves posturing."

 

 

 

 

The Oroqen shaman Chuonnasuan in July 1994.

 

 

 

Emperor Wu of Jin Dynasty, 7th-century painting

 

 

Note that both have a veil made of beads on their heads, especially in front of the eyes. Thats what the ancient neigong looks like.

[ChiDragon]

What.....???

Edited December 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

What.....???

[Marblehead]

I think we should just trash the received version... but that is me.

Well, so do I but that has nothing to do with anything.

[dust]

dusty....

That is exactly how I have them outlined. You don't think that they were copied from the original...??? Where ever the original might be....!!!

 

There are two parts to GD-A. You were only given part 2.

 

Part 1 contains Chapters 25, 5, 16, 55 and 40. They are the descriptions about Tao.

 

 

I only listed the first few chapters from each! I didn't have the energy to list every single chapter!

 

But as you mention it, the rest of the 甲 chapters are as follows:

 

32 is about the Way and ruling

25 is about the Way

5 is about the space between Heaven & Earth, so...not sure how to categorise

16 is about returning to the root (the way? not sure)

64 is about ruling / nature

56 is (I would say) about personal cultivation and ruling

57 is about ruling

55 is about the child..the weird one

44 is about personal cultivation / ruling

40 is about the Way

9 is about not forcing things (personal cultivation, ruling, the Way..)

 

 

So altogether, 甲 contains perhaps 8 chapters that can be related directly to Dao. But most of them are not directly about it. I'd say 5 out of the 20 chapters.

Edited December 18, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

IMO, I never worry or think about any thematic aspect to the GD.

 

No, I don't think there's any point in trying to find themes in each section unless they're obviously intended.

 

 

 

whats a pure philosophy and why anyone ever would need either to write or to read it?

 

Not a pure philosophy. Just philosophy, pure and simple, unadulterated with religious mumbo jumbo. Theories on how to understand life and live well, based on sound principles (in this case, the principles of Dao)

 

 

 

 

Yes excellent question. To start some definitions and background are in order.

Definition: Neigong would be any exersise that is conducted within the bodymind with a view to get tangible benefits.

...

Note that both have a veil made of beads on their heads, especially in front of the eyes. Thats what the ancient neigong looks like.

 

Interesting.

 

I see what you're getting at, in terms of "block the holes", but I don't think the GD characters are "block" or "hole", so....

[Taoist Texts]

Not a pure philosophy. Just philosophy, pure and simple, unadulterated with religious mumbo jumbo. Theories on how to understand life and live well, based on sound principles (in this case, the principles of Dao)

 

So, its like peeling an onion, There is TTC which contains pure philosophy which contains the principles of Dao. Whats in the principles of Dao?

[Marblehead]

Whats in the principles of Dao?

Everything and nothing.

[ChiDragon]

Everything and nothing.

For those who know and don't know, respectively.

[Taoist Texts]

Everything and nothing.

thats an easy answer

Edited December 18, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

Interesting.

 

I see what you're getting at, in terms of "block the holes", but I don't think the GD characters are "block" or "hole", so....

[Taoist Texts]

Allright, we have a puzzler on our hands here, people!

 

《道德經》: 52

1. 天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

2. 塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

3. 見小曰明，守柔曰強。

4. 用其光，復歸其明，無遺身殃；是為習常。

 

 

 

Lets start with (2) where the key term is dui 兌 which is understood as openings of the senses, but that’s a derivative meaning. As this sole passage 《損兌法靈蓍》

from 《鬼谷子 - Gui Gu Zi》shows, the initial meaning of dui was ‘mental active concentration showing through in demeanor’ that needs to be diminished 損

 

兌者，知之也；損者，行之也。損之兌之，物有不可者，聖人不為之辭。

Concentration is knowledge, diminishing is the conduct of it. By diminishing the concentration …the sages distance themselves from things.

 

So (2) would be

 

2. 塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

Stop the concentration, stay behind closed gates, never get involved in affairs. If you deploy your concentration, add affairs, there will be no saving you.

 

(3) is the recommendation to see the things when they barely start to develop, and to be strong with the soft power

3. 見小曰明，守柔曰強。

See the small to be wise. Keep yourself weak to be strong.

 

The (4) introduces 2 technical terms 其光 the glory of the king and the 其明 inner gods-ancestor of the king.

 

其光 as the glory/honor exhibited in kingly behavior is explained by this passages:

 

堯、舜之道皇兮，夏、殷、周之道將兮，而以延其光

The dao of Yao and Shun was august!
The dao of the Xia, Yin, and Zhou was magnificent!
Thus their glory lives on!

《孝至卷第十三 - The Priority of Filial Devotion》

 

 

為之而行，動之而光者，其德乎？或曰：「知德者鮮，何其光？」曰：「我知，為之；不我知亦為之，厥光大矣。必我知而為之，光亦小矣。」

Those who handle affairs capably and display honor through their actions—do they not have de?

《問神卷第五 - Asking About Shen》

 

While the meaning of 其明 is forgotten and is treated as ‘intelligence’, it is still preserved in 《大戴禮記 - Da Dai Li Ji》

 

開先祖之府，取其明法，

Open the ancestral temple and take their (ancestors) bright law

 

Or in the name of the ancestral temple – The Temple of Brightness 明堂。

 

The unusual term 習常 is explained in 《韓非子 - Hanfeizi》

 

群臣守職，百官有常，因能而使之，是謂習常。

The host of ministers keep their titles, the 100 official have constant positions, due to that the king can use those – this is called repeatable constancy.

 

Therefore the (4) is

 

4. 用其光，復歸其明，無遺身殃；是為習常。

Deploy your glory based on always visiting the advice of your ancestors, then you will be safe to the end, this is called repeatable constancy.

 

The difference is that legalists based the governance on keeping the duties of officials unchanged while Huang-Lao based governance on consulting the ancestors.

[Marblehead]

‘mental active concentration showing through in demeanor’

What a fantastic concept that one is!!!

[Taoist Texts]

oh yeah..absolutely. Fantastic is the right word..for us. But it was quite real for them. The ancients were a different race.

 

Homer describes a more-than-natural light around the heads of heroes in battle,^[2] .......

Further afield, Sumerian religious literature frequently speaks of melam (loaned into Akkadian asmelammu), a "brilliant, visible glamour which is exuded by gods, heroes, sometimes by kings, and also by temples of great holiness and by gods' symbols and emblems."^[5]

 

In Asian art, the nimbus is often imagined as consisting not just of light, but of flames. This type seems to first appear in Chinese bronzes of which the earliest surviving examples date from before 450.^[9]

 

The distinction between the alternative terms in English is rather unclear. The oldest term in English is "glory", the only one available in theMiddle Ages,

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, the concept has existed for a very long time. "The Art Of War" came to my mind when I read it. The concept goes even much deeper than what you spoke to above.

[dust]

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

 

In the first instance, they've transcribed 賽 as ‘obstruct', and in the second instance, as 'exceed'

 

It's the very same character.

 

They are basing each transcription, and the overall interpretation, on later versions of the text. What's the point in looking at the GD if we're just going to assume it means the same as the received?

 

I agree that the meaning of 辶兌 is important. But we need to clear up some assumptions.

 

 

閟 shut

丌

門 door/gate

賽 ? could be one of 2 characters; sai with 贝 on the bottom originally referred to giving alms at temple

丌

兌 ? note the presence of 辶; and in ch.54, 兌 with no 辶. This means something different.

冬 end / final

身 body (终身 indeed meaning to the end of one's life)

不 not

嵍 I agree it means "toil", but it's not 勤. It looks like hands pulling a mountain

啟 open, begin, teach

丌

兌 ?

賽 ?

丌

事 event, work, affair

冬

身

不

逨 composed of 來 and 止: come, arrive, succeed

 

 

兌 is incredibly problematic, because it could have a number of pronunciations and variants, and could have been misinterpreted during verbal and written transmission any number of times over time.

 

I've found no other record of it with the 辶 radicals, but in ch.54 the character 兌 appears without 辶

 

The original meaning of 兌:

 

http://dict.shufaji.com/word-658.html

祝祷颂神，为祈求而许诺

Praying to/praising the gods/spirits, asking for help

 

I've been looking at it on ctext, and I'm afraid that there are so many uses that it's going to be impossible to agree on one final meaning for it.

 

The meaning you've given isn't entirely far off the one I'm thinking of, but the character is intextricably linked to the mouth; to speaking. The meaning of "sharp" that it has in some contexts is referring to a sharp tongue, as we do in English.

 

‘mental active concentration showing through in demeanor’

I don't quite know how you got here from the Guiguzi chapter. Sounds cool but the chapter doesn't actually say anything so specific..

 

http://www.gushiwen.org/GuShiWen_02be6c97b3.aspx

兑者，以心、眼察看外物

 

So, IMO we shouldn't choose a meaning for it based off one chapter in an obscure text, when it has many potential meanings.

 

And either way, it's not the same character.... what does the 辶 signify?

Edited December 19, 2014 by dustybeijing