[TTC Study] Chapter 52 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

I'll hold my tongue for now while Y'all work out the Chinese characters.

[Taoist Texts]

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

 

 

sur. u have a link? tnx

[dawei]

GD, Ch. 52: Link

[Taoist Texts]

. what does the 辶 signify?

this one is easy. 辶兌 just means to speak 说, meaning the king must refrain from speaking. I see the evolution of the character as something that combined seeing and speaking . Compare the modern usage of 'go see smbody ...or see eye to eye with somebody' as synonymous with speaking. When ancients were praying they were actually seeing spirits, no? That was in jiaguwen times. Later on dui and shuo went their separate ways but dui was still used in lieu of shuo. Problem solved.

[dust]

But 辶 辵 means walk ?!

[Taoist Texts]

Sure. Speech goes a long way. Remember 道 speech also has 辶 辵.

[dust]

Point taken!

 

 

-- Doing just a quick scan, the only character I've noticed with a 言 radical on the slips is in ch.30, and it doesn't seem to be helpful.

Even characters like 谓 don't contain the usual speech component (instead we have 胃). So it could well be that 言 wasn't commonly used in Chu (even though it was definitely in use elsewhere in 篆文 and 金文)

 

-- As far as I've noticed, GD characters with 辶 or 彳 or 止 radicals are generally not related to speech - aside from 道

But the lack of 言-characters might indicate that others -- such as 辶 -- were used instead, I guess.

 

-- There is another character with the 兌 radical: 敓 in ch.25. Not sure if that might tell us something.

 

 

If we accept that 辶兌 is a form of 说, it could still be evidence of any number of things!

[Taoist Texts]

Well... the original was something very different. The GD is short and to the point:

 

 

閟丌門 Shut their gates,

賽丌兌 Encourage their religion,

冬身不嵍 And you shall live easily;

 

The phrase "This opium you feed your people" appeared earlier in 1797 in Marquis de Sade's text L'Histoire de Juliette and Novalis's "[R]eligion acts merely as an opiate" around the same time. The full quote from Karl Marx translates as: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". Often quoted, the interpretation of the metaphor in its context has received much less attention. ^[1]

[dawei]

this one is easy. 辶兌 just means to speak 说, meaning the king must refrain from speaking. I see the evolution of the character as something that combined seeing and speaking . Compare the modern usage of 'go see smbody ...or see eye to eye with somebody' as synonymous with speaking. When ancients were praying they were actually seeing spirits, no? That was in jiaguwen times. Later on dui and shuo went their separate ways but dui was still used in lieu of shuo. Problem solved.

 

HSG said the 'doors' are the eyes and the 'gate' is the mouth...

 

Moss says in his notes:

The second part of the stanza is a reprise of the theme of keeping the people from knowledge. Following Heshang gong, the word dui, “interaction,” is usually taken to mean the eyes (or by extension, the senses), which receive the outside world; the gates and doors are the mouth, and perhaps hearing as well. These lines may also refer to wider commercial and political intercourse. In the Huainanzi, sealing in is related to yin, opening out to yang.

[ChiDragon]

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

In the first instance, they've transcribed 賽 as ‘obstruct', and in the second instance, as 'exceed'

It's the very same character.

 

They are basing each transcription, and the overall interpretation, on later versions of the text. What's the point in looking at the GD if we're just going to assume it means the same as the received?

 

I agree that the meaning of 辶兌 is important. But we need to clear up some assumptions.

兌 ? note the presence of 辶; and in ch.54, 兌 with no 辶. This means something different.

 

兌 is incredibly problematic, because it could have a number of pronunciations and variants, and could have been misinterpreted during verbal and written transmission any number of times over time.

 

I've found no other record of it with the 辶 radicals, but in ch.54 the character 兌 appears without 辶

Dusty.....

You're wise...!!!

 

Here is my take on the characters.

● 兑

ruì ㄖㄨㄟˋ

　◎ 古同“锐”，尖锐。In the ancient, 兑 synonymous to "锐(sharp)"

 

yuè ㄩㄝˋ

　◎ 古同“悦”，喜悦。In the ancient, 兑 synonymous to "悦(joyfulness)"

 

賽 was mistakenly used for 塞 by the ancient writer is because they sounded alike.

 

兌 means sharp

塞其兌: blunt its sharpness

Interpretation: To lessen one's desire.

 

Ref: 兌(sharpness)

 

 

Edited December 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

兌 means sharp

塞其兌: blunt its sharpness

 

That is not the character in question. That's why someone asked for the GD link. You have to look at the GD strips.

 

Dusty has been calling it: 辶兌

 

TT says it means to speak. 說 / 说

[ChiDragon]

That is not the character in question. That's why someone asked for the GD link. You have to look at the GD strips.

 

Dusty has been calling it: 辶兌

 

TT says it means to speak. 說 / 说

 

Sorry, I can't work with erroneous information. I believe we are trying to get to the final meaning of 兌. When that was done, it should become clear and supersede all doubts.

 

 

"TT says it means to speak. 說 / 说"

Whatsoever, it is only in some cases by its contextual meaning. There are some synonyms as I had indicate in the previous post. One must look at the text to determine its meaning rather than by assuming to use the definition which was first found.

 

As a scholar, one should pull all the useful information together and make an evaluation. If one piece of information was neglected or ignored purposely, then end result might be invalid.

Edited December 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Sorry, I can't work with erroneous information. I believe we are trying to get to the final meaning of 兌. When that was done, it should become clear and supersede all doubts.

 

Since post #16, Dusty raised the question of the Guodian and the last 45 posts were focused on the Guodian text.

 

 

"TT says it means to speak. 說 / 说"

Whatsoever, it is only in some cases by its contextual meaning. There are some synonyms as I had indicate in the previous post. One must look at the text to determine its meaning rather than by assuming to use the definition which was first found.

 

Yes... so Dusty, myself, and TT are looking at the Guodian slips. Feel free to use the link and arrive at the character you see.

[ChiDragon]

GD, Ch. 52: Link

 

Since post #16, Dusty raised the question of the Guodian and the last 45 posts were focused on the Guodian text.

 

Yes... so Dusty, myself, and TT are looking at the Guodian slips. Feel free to use the link and arrive at the character you see.

Are you talking the link above...??. I would advise one to ignore the erroneous English to the right of 兌. It needs to be updated.

 

I would pay close attention to dusty's post #50 instead of #16 is because it is in the past.

dusty's post #50

What's the point in looking at the GD if we're just going to assume it means the same as the received?

Edited December 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Are you talking the link above...??. I would advise one to ignore the erroneous English to the right of 兌. It needs to be updated.

 

Yes, that link to see the character in question.

 

I would pay close attention to dusty's post #50 instead of #16 is because it is in the past.

 

He is talking in rhetorical frustration that people post the GD with the modern characters. The meaning is that he wants to study the GD but he wants the original... ergo, that's why the bamboo slips are better to use.

 

The current topic of discussion is still the GD version.

 

 

All GD Bamboo slips here: http://www.daoisopen.com/GuodianLaozi.html

[Taoist Texts]

 

HSG said the 'doors' are the eyes and the 'gate' is the mouth...

 

Moss says in his notes:

The second part of the stanza is a reprise of the theme of keeping the people from knowledge. Following Heshang gong, the word dui, “interaction,” is usually taken to mean the eyes (or by extension, the senses), which receive the outside world; the gates and doors are the mouth, and perhaps hearing as well. These lines may also refer to wider commercial and political intercourse. In the Huainanzi, sealing in is related to yin, opening out to yang.

They are both right to an extent but still no cigar. HSG makes TTC intended for a king to be a neigong manual for the joe-sixpack. But it does not work that way. You know quod licet Jovi non licet bovi.

Moss missed by a mile attributing the 52 to be about keeping the people from knowledge. That makes no sense cause the people are never interested in knowledge per se , but only as the means to the end of upward mobility.

[dust]

re the DW/CH conversation:

 

Of course, we have to use one of the later versions at certain points, because parts of the slips are missing. So either way we have to fill in with MWD or WB or other characters. But yes, my hope is that we try to use what we can of the GD before we run to the newer versions, to see if we can ascertain any info that might have been lost along the way.

 

Still seems to me that it's possible that 辶兌 is a version of 锐 or 悦 or 说 or 兌 or even something else.

 

 

 

They are both right to an extent but still no cigar. HSG makes TTC intended for a king to be a neigong manual for the joe-sixpack. But it does not work that way. You know quod licet Jovi non licet bovi.

Moss missed by a mile attributing the 52 to be about keeping the people from knowledge. That makes no sense cause the people are never interested in knowledge per se , but only as the means to the end of upward mobility.

 

But (as I'm aware) there are a couple of other chapters that talk of knowledge being potentially harmful:

 

19

絕智弃偏 Refute wisdom, abandon discussion,

民利百伓 And the people will profit a hundredfold;

絕巧弃利 Refute skill, abandon profit,

賊盜亡又 And there will be no more thievery

 

20

絕學亡憂 Stop learning and worry will die

[Taoist Texts]

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters.

 

 

 

 

閟 shut

丌

門 door/gate

賽 ? could be one of 2 characters; sai with 贝 on the bottom originally referred to giving alms at temple

丌

兌 ? note the presence of 辶; and in ch.54, 兌 with no 辶. This means something different.

 

I am all for GD, but i have to check it agains the nomenclature in circulation at the time.

 

 

 

 

故先王聖人為之不然：知夫為人主上者，不美不飾之不足以一民也，不富不厚之不足以管下也，不威不強之不足以禁暴勝悍也，故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳；必將錭琢刻鏤，黼黻文章，以塞其目；必將芻豢稻粱，五味芬芳，以塞其口。 《荀子 - Xunzi》

 

That is why the previous kings and the sages … to the great gongs, drums and flutes about to play – blocked their ears; to elaborate carvings, brilliant writing – blocked their eyes; to aromatic grass-fed meat, to delicious 5 tastes – blocked their mouths.

 

i always said that ruists were more taoists than Huang-lao. its just the nomeclature differed a bit while LZ used the collective 兌 , ruists enumerated the organs.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

But (as I'm aware) there are a couple of other chapters that talk of knowledge being potentially harmful:

 

Yes i thought that too. Now it dawns on me that TTC means the king's knowledge not the people's.

[dust]

故先王聖人為之不然：知夫為人主上者，不美不飾之不足以一民也，不富不厚之不足以管下也，不威不強之不足以禁暴勝悍也，故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳；必將錭琢刻鏤，黼黻文章，以塞其目；必將芻豢稻粱，五味芬芳，以塞其口。 《荀子 - Xunzi》

 

That is why the previous kings and the sages … to the great gongs, drums and flutes about to play – blocked their ears; to elaborate carvings, brilliant writing – blocked their eyes; to aromatic grass-fed meat, to delicious 5 tastes – blocked their mouths.

 

i always said that ruists were more taoists than Huang-lao. its just the nomeclature differed a bit while LZ used the collective 兌 , ruists enumerated the organs.

 

Interesting. I'm not sure but I might have translated slightly differently, this part:

 

...

故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳

So in order to (以) block their ears, they must (必) hit clocks, beat drums, puffed flutes, played harps

...

[ChiDragon]

Interesting. I'm not sure but I might have translated slightly differently, this part:

 

...

故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳

So in order to (以) block their ears, they must (必) hit clocks, beat drums, puffed flutes, played harps

...

 

Here is my take on the translation....

..... Therefore, if they must strike the big bell, beat the drum, puff the flute, play the harp, then the plugs must be used for the ears.

[ChiDragon]

Dusty.....

You're wise...!!!

 

Here is my take on the characters.

● 兑

ruì ㄖㄨㄟˋ

　◎ 古同“锐”，尖锐。In the ancient, 兑 synonymous to "锐(sharp)"

 

yuè ㄩㄝˋ

　◎ 古同“悦”，喜悦。In the ancient, 兑 synonymous to "悦(joyfulness)"

 

賽 was mistakenly used for 塞 by the ancient writer is because they sounded alike.

 

兌 means sharp

塞其兌: blunt its sharpness

Interpretation: To lessen one's desire.

 

Ref: 兌(sharpness)

 

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

, then the plugs must be used for the ears.

this is not bad , good one CD

 

 

The nine-aperture jade plugs were used to cover the nine human apertures (ears, eyes, mouth, nostrils, anus and genital) for the purpose of stopping the "spirit" from getting out

http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/32Arts4848.html

 

 

According to some investigators, green or blue earplugs were related only to the gods, whilst turquoise ones were used exclusively during religious rituals.

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-us/aztec-earrings/kids

Edited December 20, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[ChiDragon]

re the DW/CH conversation:

 

Of course, we have to use one of the later versions at certain points, because parts of the slips are missing. So either way we have to fill in with MWD or WB or other characters. But yes, my hope is that we try to use what we can of the GD before we run to the newer versions, to see if we can ascertain any info that might have been lost along the way.

 

Still seems to me that it's possible that 辶兌 is a version of 锐 or 悦 or 说 or 兌 or even something else.

 

 

 

 

But (as I'm aware) there are a couple of other chapters that talk of knowledge being potentially harmful:

 

19

絕智弃偏 Refute wisdom, abandon discussion,

民利百伓 And the people will profit a hundredfold;

絕巧弃利 Refute skill, abandon profit,

賊盜亡又 And there will be no more thievery

 

20

絕學亡憂 Stop learning and worry will die

 

The knowledge is harmful, only and only if, it was learned the wrong way without any common sense. That was what Lao Zi meant but he had said it adversely. This is what most people were missed in the interpretation of Lao Zi's philosophy. They wouldn't call the TTC a paradox for nothing. You know....!!!

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

To wrap up this very educational chapter, lastly lets try to make sense of the first sentence.

 

1. 天下有始，以為天下母。既知其母，復知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒其不殆。

 

Seemingly unconnected to the rest because it is usually translated as

 

“(The Dao) which originated all under the sky is to be considered as the mother of them all.
When the mother is found, we know what her children should be. When one knows that he is his mother's child, and proceeds to guard (the qualities of) the mother that belong to him, to the end of his life he will be free from all peril.”

 

What does this even mean? This is incomprehensible.