4 year old blackbelts

[Rodani]

[Sloppy Zhang]

Interesting question.

 

From what I have been told, a "black belt", "traditionally" only indicated that the student had demonstrated a knowledge of each of the techniques within the school. Black belt was not a sign of mastery, but was a sign that the student was now "not a beginner".

 

Training then shifted from learning techniques, to how to use them.

 

Of course, it also safeguarded (in a traditional martial arts framework), the techniques of a school, as by that time the student would have demonstrated loyalty.

 

Some schools have different structures, where advancement in rank was based on skill, not on your technique. My friend was telling me that in his Brazilian JuiJutsu school, they would promote you based on who you could beat. If you beat someone who was a higher rank than you, you deserved to have their rank. You could conceivably fight your way all the way up to black belt using only one technique.

 

This preserved the integrity of the school, and also preserved the integrity of the teaching staff. Instructors in the school were GOOD. Students had to GET good if they wanted promotion. Of course, another implication for their school was that having a low rank didn't mean that you were a poor student, it could just mean that you were in a high caliber school. My friend had told me that low ranking students from his school routinely beat black belts from other schools and other styles in competitions, because the students from his school were used to having to fight hard day in, day out.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is practicality. If you are training for actual self defense against a determined attacker, your strategy is going to vary different from person to person, even within the same school. A 235 lb man is going to have very different self defense concerns and techniques than a 135 lb woman. A 4-6 year old is going to have very different self defense concerns, and capabilities, than a 7-12 year old, which is going to differ from a 13-18 year old, which differs from a 19-25, 26-35, all the way on up the age ranges. There may be serious limitations on what they could conceivably do to be effective, and what their goals are.

 

For instance, a child is very unlikely to be able to "defeat" an adult intent on, say, kidnapping. The child's goal would be to distract, evade, escape, and get help (or attract help to their situation). A 16 year old being harassed by an adult with similar intent may have far more tools at their disposal.

 

So a child growing up in martial arts with the intent of training for an actual encounter will see their techniques and strategies changing and evolving over time.

 

I feel like the vast majority of schools that are in the business (and it is a big business) of promoting kids and rewarding belt ranks are doing it more for the self confidence of the child, while realistically it amounts to little more than creative role play. Strike a pose, do some mock combat here and there, get your belt.

 

Your concern regarding your nieces I think is genuine. Though I'm a guy, and don't know what the group dynamics are with girls, I know that, as a guy and as someone who has been in the martial arts most of their life, people do want to fight you when they find out you are a black belt, or have been involved with some other known martial art. They want to test you out. They want to confront you, and they want to push you. Sometimes it's in the interest of sportsmanship, and sometimes they have an axe to grind, and want to use you as a demonstration to beef up their own egos. I stopped telling people about my martial arts involvement YEARS ago (prior to which I started to throw fights to get people off of my back). It's not worth the risk, and if your actual goal is practical self defense (which mine was, and still is), it actually HURTS you more than it helps you.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Task]

Adults seem to want their children to grow up far too fast, and rather than quietly observe their children's gifts slowly unfold, they force a competitive discipline (sports, dance, music, etc) better suited for adults upon them and rob them of the simple joys of being a kid.

 

It's hard enough being a kid these days as it is.

[doc benway]

Adults seem to want their children to grow up far too fast, and rather than quietly observe their children's gifts slowly unfold, they force a competitive discipline (sports, dance, music, etc) better suited for adults upon them and rob them of the simple joys of being a kid.

 

It's hard enough being a kid these days as it is.

Nicely said.

I would not consider a young child to be mature enough, either psychologically or physically, to earn a black belt in a martial art.

My "definition" of someone deserving of a black belt is someone who is able to demonstrate proficiency in the basics of the art which would include basic applications. In addition, I've always been an advocate of including some assessment of maturity, stability, and responsibility. This is quite nebulous, granted, and yet important, IMO.

 

The issue is one of economics only. To pacify parents, one must show them something tangible to keep them bringing their kids in and paying their tuition.

[Mal]

Moved to discussion (might get some more views)

[templetao]

You dont even want to know what i had to go thru to get my black sash.

 

I had to run ten miles and as I was running I got jumped by the senior instructors and other people who were hidden along the course.

 

THEN

 

When you made it back to the school you to do your forms and go thru formal testing.

 

In that school they did realistic full contact fighting from standup to the ground with low leg kicks trapping and all.

 

To be a black sash or belt in any system you have to be able to literally fight using that style.

[doc benway]

You dont even want to know what i had to go thru to get my black sash.

 

I had to run ten miles and as I was running I got jumped by the senior instructors and other people who were hidden along the course.

 

THEN

 

When you made it back to the school you to do your forms and go thru formal testing.

 

In that school they did realistic full contact fighting from standup to the ground with low leg kicks trapping and all.

 

To be a black sash or belt in any system you have to be able to literally fight using that style.

To get my black sash in Wing Chun one requirement was to fight the Shifu until he was satisfied I was ready - no spectators.

He beat the crap out of me but was skillful enough to leave just marks, no real damage.

I did manage to get in a nice punch to the face and cut my knuckles open on his somewhat buck teeth!

 

When I studied a Japanese style many years ago (Shorinjiryu Kenyukai Karate), the black belt test was all in Japanese, lasted about 6 hours, and was very tough. Lot's of stuff we'd never seen or learned before the test as a way to get us to think on our feet. The tricky thing was that you didn't know it was conducted in Japanese until you got there! Fortunately I was always on the intense side and studied some language, history, and traditional sayings and so forth on my own so I did well on that part.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Baby black belts...

I guess it's good that it helps keep the schools open in tough economic times...

I wouldn't do it nor would I send my kids to such a school.

[templetao]

Well that was in the 90's

 

Is it me or does it seem like the martial artist from the 90's and before trained harder than the new martial artists now?

 

When I was a young man i trained from sun up till sun down. I sparred everyday twice a day then id train and then id go to class.

 

My main rival and i sparred so much that even if you took 1 day off the basics it showed up in the match the next day.

 

I remember i did this i spent the night before trying to get some new kick. For this action my footwork was so slow that i literally couldnt keep up with him. When he moved i could barley see him. At one point he was standing in front of me in a standard matched lead and then he was at my side and no longer in front of me( I didnt even see him move); at this point i stopped the match i knew his footwork was superior.

 

I learned a good lesson from that about going off track from the basics.

 

Now me and my former sparring partner are both middle aged and we just wonder as we watch the ufc in disgust these men are getting paid to train full time!!!! I should even be able to see them move(is how we felt).

 

Our sparring got so good that it was on an instinct level. After sparring trying to remember what happened was like a dream you remember some parts but not all of it.

[templetao]

To get my black sash in Wing Chun one requirement was to fight the Shifu until he was satisfied I was ready - no spectators.

He beat the crap out of me but was skillful enough to leave just marks, no real damage.

I did manage to get in a nice punch to the face and cut my knuckles open on his somewhat buck teeth!

 

When I studied a Japanese style many years ago (Shorinjiryu Kenyukai Karate), the black belt test was all in Japanese, lasted about 6 hours, and was very tough. Lot's of stuff we'd never seen or learned before the test as a way to get us to think on our feet. The tricky thing was that you didn't know it was conducted in Japanese until you got there! Fortunately I was always on the intense side and studied some language, history, and traditional sayings and so forth on my own so I did well on that part.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Baby black belts...

I guess it's good that it helps keep the schools open in tough economic times...

I wouldn't do it nor would I send my kids to such a school.

 

Awesome I trained with a Dan Magoan in Pukalan Kung fu its a mix of Indonesian and Chinese martial arts.

 

We had kuntao and push hands

[templetao]

When i was a kid i took taekwondo and the instructor was from korea and i remember asking him to train us like they train in korea.

 

He said "I did at first but students were collapsing complaining and not coming back."

 

As a kid i really didnt understand that.

 

When i got older I actually tried to have a private live in student (just like when i lived with my wing chun instructor). I trained him hard. I remember 1 day he pucked but he showed good heart and kept going after that about a week later he no longer wanted to train.

 

I remember when I first started taichi my legs were sooo sore i could barley walk.

 

What happened to the standard of martial quality?

[templetao]

It wasnt till later that i learned some of the truths of hard training and how to properly train.

 

He told me that 1 of the reasons you train hard was so you reached the point of near exhaustion to where you felt to tired to throw out another combo. At this point you reach a certain level of relaxation. Your too tired to tense up and waste energy. At this point you have to learn to balance on your skeletal frame just to have enough strength to do basic moves.

 

Your real training didnt begin until you reached this point.

 

You have to also have to learn how to interchange your explosive burst, cardio, and long term endurance energy systems. This is what really makes you tired when you spar.

 

Most martial artists dont learn to train that way.

 

He also taught something he called the E.L

 

"He told me this works by doing an explosive burst combo as fast as you can. Did you examine your breathing during the explosive combo? You werent really breathing in or out but you were doing both at the same time. This is your explosive burst energy system you only get tired from doing this not because you run out of breath but because you run out of atp and because when you stop you go back to your normal breathing cycle.

You have to train your body to where it natrually stores more atp. Also when training try to stay in your explosive burst as long as you can. You can do this even at the exhaustion level(this is because your long term and mid term endurance is maxed out not your explosive burst which does not rely on your oxidative system.)

 

Training as all about the type of body you build. The way you store fat, proteins and so is based by what your body does the most. So train your body right."

 

I learned things like that and trained that hard.

Edited July 23, 2011 by templetao

[Sloppy Zhang]

templetao, are you Gary J. Clyman?

[templetao]

No!?!!?!!?!??!!!

 

I dont think Gary took Wing Chun or pukalan kung fu.

 

I started training at an early age.

[templetao]

I first started taking taichi from a lady I met in the park named Karis

Edited July 23, 2011 by templetao

[Sloppy Zhang]

No!?!!?!!?!??!!!

 

I dont think Gary took Wing Chun or pukalan kung fu.

 

I started training at an early age.

 

Eh, just wondering. I remember watching one of his videos in which he talked about his past, training in Tae Kwon Do or something. A couple of these comments:

 

When i was a kid i took taekwondo and the instructor was from korea and i remember asking him to train us like they train in korea.

 

He said "I did at first but students were collapsing complaining and not coming back."

 

As a kid i really didnt understand that.

 

It wasnt till later that i learned some of the truths of hard training and how to properly train.

 

Reminded me of his video.

[Aaron]

My nephew was nine when he got his black belt and I remember how happy and proud he was to receive it. It was by no means an easy task for him and it required much practice and hard work on his part. He's now seventeen and no longer practices martial arts, but he still has the picture of him when he received his black belt.

 

I think many instructors understand that children desire some kind of acknowledgement for their hard work and because of this they reward that hard work with belts. Most martial artists understand that belts, in the grand scheme of things, means very little, but to a child learning and working it means very much. Why take that away or punish the child because we want to make it more or less important than it really is.

 

Chill out, relax, and let the kids have their fun.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I smiled the other day because my nephew came to work with me for the first time. We were installing office furniture in a school and we had to break down some boxes. I watched as he, with great ceremony, proceeded to break the box with a closed fist, only to have his fist pass through the box and get stuck. For a moment I saw him as that small child breaking boards, then looking off to where we sat watching him, seeing if anyone saw what a good job he'd done. That's what the black belt is really about (for kids).

Edited July 23, 2011 by Twinner

[kundalini]

-

Edited July 25, 2011 by kundalini

[VCraigP]

 

What happened to the standard of martial quality?

 

Sacrificed on the Altar of economic reality.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I studied Judo for 7 years from the time I was 7 to 14 (3 days per week). My instructor was old school from Holland. He said that I had put the time in and knew the techniques well enough, but felt I was too young for my brown belt. I remember being a bit disappointed and quit shortly after, but I respect his ideals so much more now. The last I heard, some clubs were giving out belts for beating belts: i.e. beat a brown, get your brown. It cheapens the meaning of belts for those that actually put in the blood, swet and tears.

 

At this point, I feel that colored belts are just meaningless ego tricks. I am turned off by any system that even uses them now. A 4 year old blackbelt is disgraceful.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The last I heard, some clubs were giving out belts for beating belts: i.e. beat a brown, get your brown. It cheapens the meaning of belts for those that actually put in the blood, swet and tears.

 

I guess it depends on the caliber of other people in the club.

 

If you promote people who don't deserve it, well there you go, you've got a bunch of people with rank who can easily get defeated by people who might not deserve it either.

 

But if you have a high quality of senior students, it can also drive down the rate of promotion. You've got really good people, and the only reason that they aren't a higher rank is their seniors are just so much better!

 

So they put in a bunch of blood, sweat, and tears, but they STILL don't get a belt for it.

[zerostao]

Sacrificed on the Altar of economic reality.

an old saying back in the day was

"you can either produce very good students or you can make money, it is extremely hard to do both"

[templetao]

A 4 year old blackbelt is disgraceful.

 

 

So if you were a new student in the school would you take instructions from the 4yr black belt?!!?!?!!??!! Since he would be a senior student there?

 

Would he lead warmup and give sparring and form tips?

[doc benway]

My nephew was nine when he got his black belt and I remember how happy and proud he was to receive it. It was by no means an easy task for him and it required much practice and hard work on his part. He's now seventeen and no longer practices martial arts, but he still has the picture of him when he received his black belt.

 

I think many instructors understand that children desire some kind of acknowledgement for their hard work and because of this they reward that hard work with belts. Most martial artists understand that belts, in the grand scheme of things, means very little, but to a child learning and working it means very much. Why take that away or punish the child because we want to make it more or less important than it really is.

 

Chill out, relax, and let the kids have their fun.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I smiled the other day because my nephew came to work with me for the first time. We were installing office furniture in a school and we had to break down some boxes. I watched as he, with great ceremony, proceeded to break the box with a closed fist, only to have his fist pass through the box and get stuck. For a moment I saw him as that small child breaking boards, then looking off to where we sat watching him, seeing if anyone saw what a good job he'd done. That's what the black belt is really about (for kids).

I think you make an excellent point and I don't completely disagree. On the other hand, those of us who take the martial arts very seriously see it a little differently. Would you ask a 4 year old to study math for 2 years and then give him the equivalent of a high school math diploma even though he can't solve trigonometry problems? Sure, I guess you can and it may make him feel good but he doesn't understand trigonometry. Give a 4 year old karate lessons for 2 years and give him a black belt and can he defend himself against a pedophile or begin to teach martial arts to other children? It's really just a matter of perspective and intention.

 

an old saying back in the day was

"you can either produce very good students or you can make money, it is extremely hard to do both"

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I've trained with a number of teachers over the past 40 years. The excellent teachers were all doing very poorly economically. The financially successful schools were not worth my time and I was in and out quickly after seeing their approach and the quality of their senior students. One exception is the school I most recently taught for. There was a time when they did very poorly financially (during the time I was training there) and recently my teacher's son has taken over the program. So far, he seems to be doing an excellent job of maintaining a high quality of instruction while dramatically improving the school's financial stability. We'll see how things are a few years from now by so far so good.

[Sloppy Zhang]

So if you were a new student in the school would you take instructions from the 4yr black belt?!!?!?!!??!! Since he would be a senior student there?

 

Would he lead warmup and give sparring and form tips?

 

I think leading the warm-up is about the extent that I'd go along with it.

 

As soon as a 4 year old started talking to me about fighting, I'd slap him upside the head and say "oops, remember, hands up, kid"

 

Hey, people did that to me, right? Better your friend hitting you than someone who wants to hurt, you, right?

 

At least, that's what all the older students/guys told me

[templetao]

Well i remember things like 1 day i went to class and the instructor turned out the lights and came to attack and said defend your self.

 

This was to build up intuitive defense and offense. After that i spent some time training with a blindfold on and training in the dark.

 

I was told that a great way to increase your chi sao was too close your eyes while doing it.

 

Students like this are not made anymore

 

There turning martial artists into brawlers.

 

When i was a kid a kung fu master was someone who had so much skill that it just boggled your mind(what happened to striving for skill like that).

 

I also remember when i was in my late teens that my teacher told me that if your ever sparring someone and there hands are to fast to see then you have to stop there slowest moving joint. This was because at this time i was sparring people who could throw a few hits a second.

 

I also remember that i had to do my jump kicks and land not making a sound. Also i had to learn to jump up with out first going down to just go up from where you were standing.

 

Martial artists nowdays are just falling off and real teachers are being put into the poorhouse.

Edited July 23, 2011 by templetao