4 year old blackbelts

[Aaron]

I think you make an excellent point and I don't completely disagree. On the other hand, those of us who take the martial arts very seriously see it a little differently. Would you ask a 4 year old to study math for 2 years and then give him the equivalent of a high school math diploma even though he can't solve trigonometry problems? Sure, I guess you can and it may make him feel good but he doesn't understand trigonometry. Give a 4 year old karate lessons for 2 years and give him a black belt and can he defend himself against a pedophile or begin to teach martial arts to other children? It's really just a matter of perspective and intention.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter. If you are more worried about belts than practice, then maybe you should rethink your priorities. I don't know of any teacher that tells a four year old to stand and fight an adult. Belts are more for kids than they are adults. If you're an adult and you're only practicing martial arts to achieve a black belt, then you're missing the point entirely.

 

Aaron

[Pu-erh]

I don't see any problem with giving kids belts up to a certain point. Black belts, on the other hand, should reflect a certain level of real fighting ability. An aikido dojo I trained at required the kids to be, I think, 16 in order to test for black belt. This makes sense to me because a 16-year-old is big enough to defeat an adult. In BJJ, there is a separate belt system for 16 and under. Kids can get up to green belt but you have to be 16 to get your blue.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Students like this are not made anymore

 

Well I think there are still plenty of people out there who find training like that to be worthwhile and they stick to it. But I think just like finding a good master, finding a good student is hard.

 

There turning martial artists into brawlers.

 

Well this happens a lot in other fields, the more mainstream it becomes, the more generic it becomes- to be accessible to as many people as possible. How many music fans thought their favorite band started sucking as soon as they become popular? It's not always about being counter-cultural, but these advertising guys conduct focus groups and whatever to find out what most people like.

 

So most people aren't going to go through some of the more "unique" training aspects of some traditional styles. They'd much rather do the form and pretend like they are a kung fu master. Eh. Let people do what they want.

 

And I wouldn't be so quick to write off MMAists or mainstream combat sport. Yes, their primary focus is sport. Yes, they do limit themselves to what techniques can and can't be used. But as far as training general attributes, many of them are top of the line, and I don't think their skills should be discounted.

 

Some fighters like, I think, Anderson Silva, are quite good. Are they at the level of high level internal MA cultivation? Perhaps not. But I think they are discovering some of the same principles of Judo, Aikido, Wing Chun, and the like, about economy of motion, conserving energy, avoidance, converting an opponent's energy to use against them. But they learn it very much "the hard way", with someone trying to knock them out every time it doesn't work. And you can't get much harder than that.

[templetao]

Well I think there are still plenty of people out there who find training like that to be worthwhile and they stick to it. But I think just like finding a good master, finding a good student is hard.

 

 

 

Well this happens a lot in other fields, the more mainstream it becomes, the more generic it becomes- to be accessible to as many people as possible. How many music fans thought their favorite band started sucking as soon as they become popular? It's not always about being counter-cultural, but these advertising guys conduct focus groups and whatever to find out what most people like.

 

So most people aren't going to go through some of the more "unique" training aspects of some traditional styles. They'd much rather do the form and pretend like they are a kung fu master. Eh. Let people do what they want.

 

And I wouldn't be so quick to write off MMAists or mainstream combat sport. Yes, their primary focus is sport. Yes, they do limit themselves to what techniques can and can't be used. But as far as training general attributes, many of them are top of the line, and I don't think their skills should be discounted.

 

Some fighters like, I think, Anderson Silva, are quite good. Are they at the level of high level internal MA cultivation? Perhaps not. But I think they are discovering some of the same principles of Judo, Aikido, Wing Chun, and the like, about economy of motion, conserving energy, avoidance, converting an opponent's energy to use against them. But they learn it very much "the hard way", with someone trying to knock them out every time it doesn't work. And you can't get much harder than that.

 

 

Yes there are alot of good fighters in the ufc and alike.

 

But if someone came in to there house or apt to kill them in the dark would they sense it? Could they kill there armed attacker and in 3 moves break their bones, rib cage, meridians, and cause internal bleeding.

 

even without the internal cultivation being a martial artist borders on the line of mystical.

 

Just being able to fight doesnt make you a martial artist there are plenty of people who can fight and fight well who have never studied martial arts.

 

even in the chin na sets i learned how to put my arms back in socket right after it got disconnected in a smooth flow.

 

I was taught how to destroy a person in very few moves Im talking broken bones, pressure points and internal bleeding in as few moves as possible.

 

For the most maximum damage with the least amount of energy spent.

 

I was raised different things like the ufc dont impress me. If i can see you move then your too slow. They are still going off of sight and reaction and not intuition.

 

There understanding of non contact and contact reflex is low.

Edited July 23, 2011 by templetao

[templetao]

the feint is seen or felt but the strike isnt.

Even after your opponent wakes up he still shouldnt know what he got hit with.

[Seth Ananda]

[doc benway]

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter. If you are more worried about belts than practice, then maybe you should rethink your priorities. I don't know of any teacher that tells a four year old to stand and fight an adult. Belts are more for kids than they are adults. If you're an adult and you're only practicing martial arts to achieve a black belt, then you're missing the point entirely.

 

Aaron

I agree with you, belts are for holding up the pants -

Then why give a 4 yo a black belt?

It is a completely meaningless and artificial gesture.

You're beginning the conditioning process already that the belt and rank has value.

If you want to teach the 4 yo what is important, teach him to value the training for what it is, not as a stepping stone to a meaningless reward. Because when he gets that belt, his family is proud, his friends are proud, everyone congratulates him on his "black belt" and you've already inculcated this mistaken idea that the belt and rank are important, intentional or otherwise. That's just the way it is.

 

From the responses to this topic, I think most of us understand the relative value of training vs rank.

[VCraigP]

I agree with you, belts are for holding up the pants -

Then why give a 4 yo a black belt?

It is a completely meaningless and artificial gesture.

You're beginning the conditioning process already that the belt and rank has value.

If you want to teach the 4 yo what is important, teach him to value the training for what it is, not as a stepping stone to a meaningless reward. Because when he gets that belt, his family is proud, his friends are proud, everyone congratulates him on his "black belt" and you've already inculcated this mistaken idea that the belt and rank are important, intentional or otherwise. That's just the way it is.

 

From the responses to this topic, I think most of us understand the relative value of training vs rank.

IN the old days when I was heavily involved in Taekwondo there was a system for Junior black belts wherein you could receive a black belt while being younger than 15, but that was merely a "poom" belt and had no standing with the World Taekwondo federation. One was required to retake the rank test when one reached 15 or 16.

 

Further it was generally taught by quality instructors that black belt merely indicated a certain degree of mastery of the basics of the art which enabled one to be a "true student". Therefore the road to black belt was merely the achievement of the ability to learn. Perhaps equivalent to Junior high school. Good foundation but not high school, not college, not an advanced degree.

 

As pointed to in my earlier brief response in this thread quality training has been sacrificed on the altar of economics. Teachers and students are progressively watered down through the years. Profit making and production of quality students are, as earlier mentioned here, generally mutually exclusive. It calls for a tremendous amount of commitment and work to achieve any degree of mastery of a martial art. High level mastery calls for exponentially greater commitment and work. Transmitting that knowledge and skill requires a commensurate level of commitment, time and energy on the part of a Quality instructor. The resources required to do all of this are beyond that of almost anyone because of the economic realities of earning a living. I am sure there are exceptions to this, and varying degrees of accomplishment of true training, but as admitted in this discussion, they are rare.

 

Awarding Black Belts to kids is another example of this whole misguided self esteem boosting trend of giving kids things to make them feel good about themselves without really earning it, so everyone feels like a winner.

 

Makes me gag...

 

PS - nowadays I don't think any art with belts is worth much. I have TKD 4th Dan.

PPS - The difficult thing for most people approaching MA for this first time is that they don't have ANY context to make a quality judgement about what they are getting into. Hence the "success" of the McMartial arts franchises out there.

 

Craig

[thelerner]

In the real old days you had to be 26 years old and have letters that guaranteed good character in order to study Aikido. There was a 25 year old who tried to join, he had a letter from a high ranking official. He was accepted but could only do be an uke 'attacker' for a year. <book- PreWorld War II Aikido Masters>

 

In the old days there were no belts, only hard won instructor certificates. Belts are about good to encourage kids and making money. I'm very glad my Shotokan Karate teacher and later my Ki-Aikido Sensei didn't have a belt mentality. The Taekwondo I took in College did, and I think it made for better business sense but took away from the spirit of the art.

 

Black belts are worthless, $10 in a store. Training, discipline, skill, mind body coordination thats the stuff.

 

 

2 cents