[Birch]

" focus is on bringing more love and light in,..."

Sounds like smth worth doing. But how exactly?

[Vajrahridaya]

" focus is on bringing more love and light in,..."

Sounds like smth worth doing. But how exactly?

 

From Wiki:

 

The four immeasurables (Brahmaviharas) in early Buddhism:

 

In the Tevijja Sutta: The Threefold Knowledge of the Majjhima Nikaya set of scriptures, Buddha Shākyamuni is asked the way to fellowship/companionship/communion with Brahma. He replies that he personally knows the world of Brahma and the way to it, and explains the meditative method for reaching it by using an analogy of the resonance of the conch shell of the aṣṭamaṅgala:

 

A monk suffuses the world in the four directions with a mind of benevolence, then above, and below, and all around – the whole world from all sides, completely, with a benevolent, all-embracing, great, boundless, peaceful and friendly mind … Just as a powerful conch-blower makes himself heard with no great effort in all four [cardinal] directions, so too is there no limit to the unfolding of [this] heart-liberating benevolence. This is a way to communion with Brahma(god).

 

The Buddha then says that the monk must follow this up with an equal suffusion of the entire world with mental projections of compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity (regarding all beings with an eye of equality).

 

In the two Metta Suttas of the Aṅguttara Nikāya, the Buddha states that those who practice radiating the four immeasurables in this life and die "without losing it" are destined for rebirth in a heavenly realm in their next life. In addition, if such a person is a Buddhist disciple (Pāli: sāvaka) and thus realizes the three characteristics of the five aggregates (to read about the aggregates), then after his heavenly life, this disciple will reach nibbāna (liberation). Even if one is not a disciple, one will still attain the heavenly life, after which, however, one may again be reborn in a hell realm, or as an animal or hungry ghost (due to the arising of craving for sense pleasures).

........................................................

 

Brahmavihāra practice in the Visuddhimagga:

 

The four immeasurables are explained in The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), written in the fifth century CE by the scholar and commentator Buddhaghoṣa. They are often practiced by taking each of the immeasurables in turn and applying it to oneself, wishing oneself well (omitted while training oneself in *mudita), and then to others nearby, and so on to everybody in the world, and to everybody in all universes.

 

*Mudita (Pāli and Sanskrit: मुदित) in Buddhism is joy. It is especially sympathetic or vicarious joy, the pleasure that comes from delighting in other people's well-being rather than begrudging it. The traditional paradigmatic example of this mind-state is the attitude of a parent observing a growing child's accomplishments and successes, but it is not to be confunded with proudness as the person feeling mudita must not have any interest or direct income from the accomplishments of the other.

[JustARandomPanda]

Is realizing the Undivided Light the same as being Enlightened?

[Birch]

Is realizing the Undivided Light the same as being Enlightened?

I don't know but I figure it's probably an enlightening experience (and it wouldn't IMO/IME be the only of its kind)

When it comes to enlightenment, there's a bunch of definitions. Ironic, laughable, I figure :-)

If I had a heart emoticon I would puff it up and send it online. But I can't online (send puffed-up hearts). I figure that's part of it (the elightenment thinging, knowing where you can and can't take action, and why. Or maybe it's just getting rid of the whys...

[Vmarco]

Is realizing the Undivided Light the same as being Enlightened?

 

What is "enlightenment?" In Freethought Buddhism, enlightenment literally means being awake to the Light that one is. This Light is not a "sun light", or any illumination from the electrodynamic spectrum, but Clear, Undivided Light,...the fulcrum upon which the electrodynamic spectrum effects its motion. Avadhuta is said to be a state of enlightenment in which the distinctions between good and evil no longer exist. So, enlightenment can be viewed as having levels in the Freethought Buddhist understanding of enlightenment.

 

The actual realization of Undivided Light,...as in the ability to recognize the Clear Light of Naropa's 4th Yoga, is a level of awakening,...at least a level that is quite aware that this illusion is an illusion. At the highest level, we would be talking of the Buddhic fields.

 

Levels of Enlightenment in Freethought Buddhism (a term I just begun using to differentiate the Long Path practices of Theraveda, Mahayana, and Lineage driven Vajrayana, because my use of the word Vajrayana was upsetting Vajrahridaya), is actually a "lightening" experience. Each embedded belief that is let go, manifests a literal lightening from the burden of discarded baggage.

 

There are said to be 3 kinds of food,...the air we breathe (actually, there are more than a few Breatharians said to be living today. Second is the substances we put into our stomache or blood system. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, is "impressions." Just as air and solid/liguid foods have weight,...so do impressions.

 

My first experience with Undivided Light occurred in 1974 by way of a complete surrender, without any anticipation for the outcome,...as I said, it was a complete surrender. According to a clock, I was exposed to the bliss of Clear Light for nearly 6 hours. There was some similarity with NDE's, but this was beyond that,...no beliefs accompanied me (as near deathers have), and thus I went directly past the 4th and 5th densities,...no worm holes or conduits in time,...although I played with those years later.

 

I was quite surprized to return,...that is, to re-descend,...I did not request to come back, nor did I request to stay,...it was simply a state of bliss. Let me be clear,...I did not go into the Light,...I was the the Light. No hope or fear. No tunnel, no warning, no angels, no body, no god,...just this ecstatic bliss within still, clear, unconditional Light. Nothing was beyond it; there was no beyond. There was consciousness, not as in the perceptual, phenomenal consciousness of our ordinary senses and skandhas, but a consciousness more profound then when awakening from the sleeping dreams of our ordinary sense reality. I was awake from the dream of life. For 6 hours of our perceived time,....awake. Imagine you have been sleeping for 20 years, and all of a sudden you woke up,...you were asleep so long that you believed that was the only reality. This still, energy-less enchantment was the authentic home of my consciousness, a home without body or ego.

 

When I returned, still awake, but in this Duality reality, I went up into the New Mexico mountains. A quite unusual experience happened there (which I won't get into) perhaps 5 hours after being fully in the Light, which prompted me to have a thought, and I instantly went back to sleep, so to say.

 

Personally, I don't consider myself "enlightened", but I am aware of Undivided Light, and have become somewhat familiar with the essence of Self that is beyond this 3d reality.

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

Personally, I don't consider myself "enlightened", but I am aware of Undivided Light, and have become somewhat familiar with the essence of Self that is beyond this 3d reality.

 

V

 

Lots of yogi's experience this in many traditions, but still don't know the inner meaning of dependent origination.

 

You think there is some sort of self existing transcendent, beyond thought and logic?

 

p.s. I don't know... the confusion could just be words! But it does sound like you just had an experience of a formless state of absorption from your description, very high up... very good, but not Buddhahood. Where in NM do you live? I lived there for many years.

[Vajrahridaya]

I was quite surprized to return,...that is, to re-descend,...I did not request to come back, nor did I request to stay,...it was simply a state of bliss. Let me be clear,...I did not go into the Light,...I was the the Light. No hope or fear. No tunnel, no warning, no angels, no body, no god,...just this ecstatic bliss within still, clear, unconditional Light. Nothing was beyond it; there was no beyond. There was consciousness, not as in the perceptual, phenomenal consciousness of our ordinary senses and skandhas, but a consciousness more profound then when awakening from the sleeping dreams of our ordinary sense reality. I was awake from the dream of life. For 6 hours of our perceived time,....awake. Imagine you have been sleeping for 20 years, and all of a sudden you woke up,...you were asleep so long that you believed that was the only reality. This still, energy-less enchantment was the authentic home of my consciousness, a home without body or ego.

 

 

This is the Jhana of infinite consciousness as described by the Buddha. There is in fact beyond. It's called the jhana of neither perception nor non-perception. Beyond that is the inner meaning of dependent origination/emptiness, not merely the relative meaning.

 

p.s. The reason why this state seems like a Self, is there is no perception of otherness, and when you enter back into body consciousness, it seems like the cosmos is being put back together out of this light. I know very well what you are describing. So did the Buddha, and so did Asanga and Vasubandhu, thus they described the various states of beyond body consciousness in their yogachara/chitamatra. They still warn of taking this state up as a Self. It is a state of rest, but clinging to it as a Self of all merely leads to absorption into a formless realm either after death or after the end of a cosmic aeon. It's still arisen dependent upon focusing on one of the skandhas, particularly consciousness. This can happen spontaneously due to past life merit or through deep meditative equipoise. Read the 31 planes of existence.

 

31 planes of existence.

 

Be aware of the pride inherent in high level states of consciousness when one or other of them are considered as a Self.

[Vmarco]

[ralis]

One view that is brought up repeatedly in these discussions is that the function of cognition is a barrier to any realization. These discussions assume that everyone has the same cognitive functions. Some are primarily visual, as well as some are primarily auditory etc. E.g. the Tibetan Lama's proclaim that anyone with any defective senses or lack thereof, would not attain enlightenment. Defective senses were seen as an impediment to realization. Negative karma BS was the reason given. This kind of arrogance is what gives religion a very bad reputation! That is not a compassionate point of view and more akin to superstitious thinking arising from the dark ages. That is not to say that everyone participating in these discussions are of this particular point of view. This is one example that I have had experience with.

 

If the function of thought is an impediment to realization, then what about one who is born deaf? For anyone who is born deaf, the language that is endemic to their culture is not part of the brain and nervous system.

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting comments,...however, I did not experience "when you enter back into body consciousness, it seems like the cosmos is being put back together out of this light"...rather, I understood that I (not the skandha I) was never separate from Light.

 

Anything I say seems to be misconstrued by you. If I say high you'll say low, and vice versa.

 

It's clear that you are monistic. Though I agree with much of what you say, and I've stated many of the same things using very similar metaphors, interestingly enough when I was monistic. So on your ideation of your experience of ultimate truth, we are not in cahoots.

[Informer]

I think that any word compounded with self is an oxymoron.

[Vmarco]

Anything I say seems to be misconstrued by you. If I say high you'll say low, and vice versa.

 

It's clear that you are monistic. Though I agree with much of what you say, and I've stated many of the same things using very similar metaphors, interestingly enough when I was monistic. So on your ideation of your experience of ultimate truth, we are not in cahoots.

 

I disagree that we are that far apart on these subjects. Nor am I attempting to push a monist viewpoint. Fortunately, I was emancipated from monism on June 21, 1999,...one of those days etched into memory by the sheer profoundness of it.

 

Fundamentally I'm here for the vocabulary,...not only words that are used, but the experiences attempting to be shared through what is not said.

 

Very, very few people are interested in Ultimate Truth,...most merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible. Sure, I'm interested in what is nirvana, buddhic consciousness, and what is all this talk about what's beyond the skandhas,...but uncovering absolute truths is my main inquiry,...perhaps since I was 8.

 

Strangely, there is no vocabulary for discussing truth,...or for quickly recognizing what is not absolutely true.

 

If your attachment to the Long Paths of Lineages is your focus, I by no means belittle that. As I said, I'm here for the vocabulary.

 

V

[Wynn]

Oxymorons don't hinder Awakening. Selfishness does.

[Vmarco]

Oxymorons don't hinder Awakening. Selfishness does.

 

Although oxymorons and selfishness are similiar in that they both have a disregard for the concern of others,...I'd say oxymorons are more hindering to awakening, because, whereas even a moron can see selfishness as selfishness, very few appear able to see an oxymoron for an oxymoron.

 

V

[Aaron]

Ultimate Truth

 

Perhaps you should add this to your list of oxymorons?

 

Aaron

[Vajrahridaya]

I disagree that we are that far apart on these subjects. Nor am I attempting to push a monist viewpoint. Fortunately, I was emancipated from monism on June 21, 1999,...one of those days etched into memory by the sheer profoundness of it.

 

Fundamentally I'm here for the vocabulary,...not only words that are used, but the experiences attempting to be shared through what is not said.

 

Very, very few people are interested in Ultimate Truth,...most merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible. Sure, I'm interested in what is nirvana, buddhic consciousness, and what is all this talk about what's beyond the skandhas,...but uncovering absolute truths is my main inquiry,...perhaps since I was 8.

 

Strangely, there is no vocabulary for discussing truth,...or for quickly recognizing what is not absolutely true.

 

If your attachment to the Long Paths of Lineages is your focus, I by no means belittle that. As I said, I'm here for the vocabulary.

 

V

 

I concur, though my attention is not a long or short path... this seems to be a stringent dualism that you hold as some sort of absolute demarcation of quality.

[Vajrahridaya]

Perhaps you should add this to your list of oxymorons?

 

Aaron

 

i concur!

[Vmarco]

(Ultimate Truth)

Perhaps you should add this to your list of oxymorons?

 

Aaron

 

No,...that wouldn't even make sense for fully ignorant person,...because if there actually were no Ultimate Truth, than the Ultimate Truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an Ultimate Truth.

 

However, as I already mentioned several absolute truths, such as 'There is no Present in Time',...or Buddha suggesting that the skandhas are a truth of duality (albeit a somewhat relative truth), I'll be kind, and pretend that neither you or Vajrahridaya could comprehend more than 1% of the thread due to pre-conditioning.

 

Hence,...as the quote in question is, "Very, very few people are interested in Ultimate Truth,...most merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible"....my question, in regards to both responses, would be WHY are you at this forum at all? Thus, what I really should add to the oxymoron list would be:

 

Twinner-Vajrahridaya Tao Bum members.

 

V

[Vmarco]

I concur, though my attention is not a long or short path... this seems to be a stringent dualism that you hold as some sort of absolute demarcation of quality.

 

You really should relax Vajrahridaya,....if your attention is not on the Short Path, then it's on the Long Path. Here's a suggestion,....listen to the song on this HomePage, a thousand times.

 

http://diamondbodyyoga.com/

[Vajrahridaya]

You really should relax Vajrahridaya,....if your attention is not on the Short Path, then it's on the Long Path. Here's a suggestion,....listen to the song on this HomePage, a thousand times.

 

http://diamondbodyyoga.com/

 

There is no path Vmarco. Your understanding is erroneous, a subjective idealism. You think your comprehension and view, your interpretation and vision is an absolute truth which if we don't agree with, classifies us as idiots.

[Vajrahridaya]

No,...that wouldn't even make sense for fully ignorant person,...because if there actually were no Ultimate Truth, than the Ultimate Truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an Ultimate Truth.

 

Nothing is relative to something. In Buddhism, there is no ultimate truth and that is it's ultimate truth.

 

There is no Self beyond phenomena.

[3bob]

[Vmarco]

There is no path Vmarco. Your understanding is erroneous, a subjective idealism. You think your comprehension and view, your interpretation and vision is an absolute truth which if we don't agree with, classifies us as idiots.

 

In Buddhism, there is no ultimate truth and that is it's ultimate truth.

 

 

Are you suggesting that in your Lineage the Four Noble Truths are not true? Or that there is no, "the True Bodhi Path" Buddha

 

This dialogue is beginning to remind me of a Progessive attempting to converse with a Conservative. Why are you holding onto such Rigid fear and closed-mindedness?

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Society/Conservatives_Deconstruct.html

 

Am I that much a threat to your lineage? One thing for sure, your Buddhism seems to from things other than Buddhism. For some brief examples:

 

"the Tathagatas' words are true and correspond to reality. They are ultimate words, neither deceitful nor heterodox" Buddha

 

"When you study the Path and see the truth, ignorance vanishes and light remains forever. " Buddha

 

"When absolute truth is discovered, their level is like the level of Buddhas. That is called the Transference of Reaching all Places." Buddha

 

"If truth was understood, ego would no longer be "needed" in the capacity it now enjoys." Sri Ram Kaa

 

"Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve; When you behold your mind's true nature." Tilopa

 

"They should use the ear organ to cultivate, A perfect penetration surpassing all others, That is the way to the true mind." Buddha

 

"Though there may be many lies, One truth will conquer all." Saraha

 

"When mind never strays from indeterminate, non-conceptual truth; The unbroken samaya is a lamp lit in spiritual darkness." Tilopa

 

"When the false ceases to be, that is known as truth" Shurangama sutra

 

"The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind" Tilopa

 

"If even one person among you finds the truth and returns to the source, then all the space in the ten directions is obliterated" Buddha.

 

"But if they reject arising and ceasing and uphold the eternal truth, an enduring light will appear, and with that, the sense-organs, defiling objects, and consciousnesses will disappear." Shurangama sutra

 

"The single mind of True Suchness is called the Ground of Immovability" Buddha

 

"unite with enlightenment, so that true suchness, the wonderful enlightened bright nature, comes into being. Buddha

 

"The precious, enlightened true mind is perfect in everyone." Buddha

 

"Accordingly, extract one organ, free it from adhesion, and subdue it at its inner core. Once subdued, it will return to primal truth and radiate its innate brilliance.....True understanding does not follow from the sense-organs." Buddha

 

"Upholding the truth is the best thing." Buddha