Heartmind

[JustARandomPanda]

So....

 

I see this term thrown around a lot and I confess I am confused by it. Heartmind this, Heartmind that. People arguing about whether it can be verbalized and described or not.

 

I am a beginning meditator. I've still got monkey-mind that I'm trying to settle down. But I still read the meditation and practice threads.

 

 

First I read in one thread that one needs to "get rid of all beliefs".

 

Then other peeps say that's not possible, that one can only change one's core beliefs, not get rid of them.

 

But then I read in YET ANOTHER thread that we do, indeed need to get rid of all beliefs! Especially if one is to uncover (reveal? experience?) Heartmind.

 

So I am opening up this thread for discussion on the nature of what to me is still a mysterious beast.

 

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

[Lucky7Strikes]

So....

 

I see this term thrown around a lot and I confess I am confused by it. Heartmind this, Heartmind that. People arguing about whether it can be verbalized and described or not.

 

I am a beginning meditator. I've still got monkey-mind that I'm trying to settle down. But I still read the meditation and practice threads.

 

 

First I read in one thread that one needs to "get rid of all beliefs".

 

Then other peeps say that's not possible, that one can only change one's core beliefs, not get rid of them.

 

But then I read in YET ANOTHER thread that we do, indeed need to get rid of all beliefs! Especially if one is to uncover (reveal? experience?) Heartmind.

 

So I am opening up this thread for discussion on the nature of what to me is still a mysterious beast.

 

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

From an energetic standpoint, when the yin yang channels of the body collapse, it opens the sushumna channels of the body and your heart center will open as the breath disappears. One will experience everything dissolving into it depending on how much you are willing to surrender to its pull.

 

I experienced this through Kunlun. . I don't know if it's heart mind though.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

From an energetic standpoint, when the yin yang channels of the body collapse, it opens the sushumna channels of the body and your heart center will open as the breath disappears. One will experience everything dissolving into it depending on how much you are willing to surrender to its pull.

 

I experienced this through Kunlun. . I don't know if it's heart mind though.

 

How is this helpful to her question?

[寒月 Hanyue]

So....

 

I see this term thrown around a lot and I confess I am confused by it. Heartmind this, Heartmind that. People arguing about whether it can be verbalized and described or not.

 

I am a beginning meditator. I've still got monkey-mind that I'm trying to settle down. But I still read the meditation and practice threads.

 

 

First I read in one thread that one needs to "get rid of all beliefs".

 

Then other peeps say that's not possible, that one can only change one's core beliefs, not get rid of them.

 

But then I read in YET ANOTHER thread that we do, indeed need to get rid of all beliefs! Especially if one is to uncover (reveal? experience?) Heartmind.

 

So I am opening up this thread for discussion on the nature of what to me is still a mysterious beast.

 

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

 

No straight or clear answers on this I'm afraid. Xin 心 means heart-mind, it is who you truly are without any "dust", your true Being. This is why you get all the poetic descriptions of mirrors or still ponds reflecting the moon.

 

The problem is when you have the distortions, these shift our perception and awareness. So everything is viewed through these distortions. I don't feel you can "look" for xin at the core of your self, this is why a teacher guides you. Not only can they confirm any experience you have, they can actually help you see past the distortions. A real teacher anyway.

 

Xin is associated with your core of Being, traditionally located around the chest area and is related to the core of the central channel. But here is the kicker, it is not something to "chase" simply be aware of the idea, practice your cultivation and experience and allow. If your method is genuine and you practice things will happen, get feedback from your teacher when appropriate. And you will find your way in without delusion.

 

If you chase it, and try to experience it you probably will, or will convince yourself you have anyway. If you diligently work on releasing all that is not you, then you will be left with only that which is you, that is your zhengxin 正心 true Being/Heart-mind.

 

Best,

[xabir2005]

No straight or clear answers on this I'm afraid. Xin 心 means heart-mind, it is who you truly are without any "dust", your true Being. This is why you get all the poetic descriptions of mirrors or still ponds reflecting the moon.

 

The problem is when you have the distortions, these shift our perception and awareness. So everything is viewed through these distortions. I don't feel you can "look" for xin at the core of your self, this is why a teacher guides you. Not only can they confirm any experience you have, they can actually help you see past the distortions. A real teacher anyway.

 

Xin is associated with your core of Being, traditionally located around the chest area and is related to the core of the central channel. But here is the kicker, it is not something to "chase" simply be aware of the idea, practice your cultivation and experience and allow. If your method is genuine and you practice things will happen, get feedback from your teacher when appropriate. And you will find your way in without delusion.

 

If you chase it, and try to experience it you probably will, or will convince yourself you have anyway. If you diligently work on releasing all that is not you, then you will be left with only that which is you, that is your zhengxin 正心 true Being/Heart-mind.

 

Best,

Have you realized Mind? Is Mind truly located inside the body? Does mind have a location?

[ralis]

I was taught to focus inside the center of the chest close to the spine. Breath and relax from that spot. Norbu said to feel for the area. It is easily recognizable. This point unifies both the upper dantien and lower dantien.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Have you realized Mind? Is Mind truly located inside the body? Does mind have a location?

 

 

You do appreciate that mind is something else and not what is being discussed, yes??

 

Ok then, moving on

 

Best,

[Vmarco]

[goldisheavy]

So....

 

I see this term thrown around a lot and I confess I am confused by it. Heartmind this, Heartmind that. People arguing about whether it can be verbalized and described or not.

 

I am a beginning meditator. I've still got monkey-mind that I'm trying to settle down. But I still read the meditation and practice threads.

 

 

First I read in one thread that one needs to "get rid of all beliefs".

 

Then other peeps say that's not possible, that one can only change one's core beliefs, not get rid of them.

 

But then I read in YET ANOTHER thread that we do, indeed need to get rid of all beliefs! Especially if one is to uncover (reveal? experience?) Heartmind.

 

So I am opening up this thread for discussion on the nature of what to me is still a mysterious beast.

 

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

 

Heartmind is the core of your being. You're always experiencing it at all times, but sometimes it's hard to recognize it. Like during an overcast day even though you cannot see the sun distinctly, it's still sun's light that illumines everything. Similarly, your heartmind lights up the whole world at all times. When you are awake heartmind lights up this world here. When you are asleep, it lights up your dreams. It's always shimmering in one way or another. It is in this world and beyond. When you meditate it is not enhanced. When you are ignorant it is not dulled or damaged in any way. It is constant.

 

It's what maintains your body's function. When your body passes away, if you continue to maintain beliefs and habits of a human being, it's the heartmind that will manifest another body and identify with it.

 

If you believe in nothing at all in an honest manner, it's a belief and not a non-belief. In that case, heartmind manifests a formless realm.

 

If you understand the nature of your beliefs and their effects, then regardless of which realm you appear in, you'll be endowed with extra powers, such as calm, wisdom, and compassion, or perhaps even humor and tolerance as well.

 

Anyway, I am just one of the peeps. Other peeps will be saying other things as they always have. It's up to you to decide what heartmind is. The reason you can decide what heartmind is, is because of your heartmind. If you decide you don't have it, that's heartmind's function. If you decide you have it, that's heartmind's function too. Heartmind is your day to day mind but it's also beyond your day to day mind. You're a creative being. It's not the case that you're merely learning about what is. Instead you are always orchestrating your meanings. You'll decide what heartmind means for you one way or the other. It is the heart of your own mind.

[xabir2005]

 

You do appreciate that mind is something else and not what is being discussed, yes??

 

Ok then, moving on

 

Best,

I am using the term 'Mind' and 'heart-mind' synonymously.

[Vmarco]

[Lucky7Strikes]

I was taught to focus inside the center of the chest close to the spine. Breath and relax from that spot. Norbu said to feel for the area. It is easily recognizable. This point unifies both the upper dantien and lower dantien.

Why ralis, my reply is similar to yours.

[Vajrahridaya]

I was taught to focus inside the center of the chest close to the spine. Breath and relax from that spot. Norbu said to feel for the area. It is easily recognizable. This point unifies both the upper dantien and lower dantien.

 

Thanks for that, this is good.

[Aetherous]

I like those posts, Vmarco. You seem to have many years of experience in a variety of traditions.

 

Fear is a dualistic partner with hope. If you let go of all hope, all fear must dissolve with it. Which is a frightening thing for Christians,...whose scriptures say hope is to be desired,...it's even part of their definition of love.

 

Well, things could have turned out a little differently. When Moses left Egypt, he could have taken all of the "negative confessions of the heart", but he only gave a few, as the 10 commandments. So the tradition was already missing a great part that considered "hope" to be essentially a "sin".

 

Anyway, Christians are supposed to be fearless. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18 NIV) A lot of practitioners are following deluded ministers, giving the religion a bad name, rather than following the actual teachings.

 

As you can tell, I am partial to the religion.

 

...

 

Xin 心 means heart-mind, it is who you truly are without any "dust", your true Being.

 

Nice.

 

I believe that the embryonic breathing state, which Lucky7Strikes experienced, is heart-mind's full expression through the physiology of human beings.

[JustARandomPanda]

From an energetic standpoint, when the yin yang channels of the body collapse, it opens the sushumna channels of the body and your heart center will open as the breath disappears.

 

I've experienced this only once in my lifetime. At night. My breathing shut down completely and I mean completely. Unfortunately instead of simply watching quietly it made me very scared that I was dying.

[The Way Is Virtue]

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

 

From what I understand, it was believed in earlier times in China that the source or true residing place of the mind is in the heart or heart area, so the term xin (心) was used to indicate either heart or mind, just as we might sometimes use the term brain when we are referring to the mind such as in, "My brain is really foggy today", in place of, "My mind is really foggy today". I don't know that the reason for this usage of xin for mind is really any more complicated than that, but there could be more to it than that I suppose. Maybe a native Chinese speaker can help clarify further. Whether one is thinking in terms of mind or heart-mind or brain-mind, I don't know that it is any easier to really define what mind is in any of those contexts. It's still just as big of a mystery to me no matter how I think about it. Hmm ..., interesting. The mind using the functioning of the mind to try to figure out what mind is, and getting nowhere... It seems the approach may well be faulty...

[Aetherous]

I've experienced this only once in my lifetime. At night. My breathing shut down completely and I mean completely. Unfortunately instead of simply watching quietly it made me very scared that I was dying.

 

Sleep paralysis or something?

 

In my experience of (what I think) Lucky experienced: I could breathe if I wanted to. It was a deep state of mental rest (so no monkey mind), yet at the same time, a sudden burst of brightness and clarity of awareness. I could feel the respiration surging throughout my entire body...the energy of the body functioning in a different way from ordinary breathing. After some time, thoughts would begin to arise (whoa I really don't have to breathe?!?) and then shortly after breathing would resume, and once again it'd be challenging to hold my breath for a length of time. In this state, it was effortless and lasted a minute or two.

[JustARandomPanda]

Sleep paralysis or something?

 

No. It was not sleep paralysis. I've experienced sleep paralysis many times. This other incident was utterly unique, never happened before nor since.

[doc benway]

What is this Heartmind and how can we tell what it is and when we're experiencing it or expressing it? Are there any SPECIFIC meditational or internal alchemical practices that let one connect to it or whatever?

 

I think GIH gave a great and succinct answer to "what" it is although I don't completely buy all of it, see below.

There are many methods and practices that are designed to guide you to direct "experience" of heartmind.

I use quotes because heartmind is not experience per se. It is pure being absent one who is experiencing and absent anything that is being experienced but these are just words.

The Advaita Vedanta technique of abiding in the question "Who Am I?" is particularly effective - see Ramana Maharshi.

More contemporary non-dual writings can be effective (Sailor Bob Anderson, Steven Harrison).

Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello both have "non-methods" that help guide one to this "state of being"

And certainly myriad Buddhist and Daoist methods.

 

A good friend recently gave me a set of CD's called Radiant Mind by Peter Fenner. He was an ordained monk in Tibetan Buddhism but for some reason left the monastery and returned to lay life. I just started listening to the CD's and so far he seems to be doing exactly what you are looking for - assisting the listener and getting in touch with the heartmind directly. I can't speak to his credibility and I've only listened to the first of 7 discs so far but you may want to check it out.

 

When your body passes away, if you continue to maintain beliefs and habits of a human being, it's the heartmind that will manifest another body and identify with it.

 

I have trouble buying into what I consider Buddhist dogma when it comes to things like what is referred to above. Once the body and brain are gone, does the individual continue to exist? I know the TIbetan tradition (and others) believe so. I know that there are claims of such by reincarnated "souls" and folks who have "died and come back" but to me this is unsubstantiated dogma. Until I have direct experience or compelling reason to accept otherwise, my view is that the memories, experiences, preferences, personality, and all that which makes us distinct individuals is a reflection of the "hard-wiring" if you will of the brain/body and is a consequence of genetic memory, direct experience, anatomical and physiological characteristics, etc... When that is gone through true death (not just a 15 minute, transient "death") "we" are pure heartmind absent any individual characteristics. This makes the most sense to me.

 

Disclaimer - I have one foot in both the Western scientific and Eastern spiritual camps. This certainly informs my viewpoint. A new and unique manifestation of heartmind occurs with each rebirth and develops a unique expression of heartmind, genetics, anatomy, physiology, cultural and social conditioning, etc.... Might there be fragments here and there that are expressed giving rise to the dogma that espouses reincarnation? Possible but I'm not completely convinced - just my $.02.

[JustARandomPanda]

Disclaimer - I have one foot in both the Western scientific and Eastern spiritual camps. This certainly informs my viewpoint. A new and unique manifestation of heartmind occurs with each rebirth and develops a unique expression of heartmind, genetics, anatomy, physiology, cultural and social conditioning, etc.... Might there be fragments here and there that are expressed giving rise to the dogma that espouses reincarnation? Possible but I'm not completely convinced - just my $.02.

 

Am I understanding you correctly in that your main objection to GiH's statement is that the Heartmind has a "memory" or "beliefs" after death?

 

What causes the rebirth that brings about manifestation as a human and not - say - as a dog or a bug?

 

 

p.s. thanks for the references.

[doc benway]

Am I understanding you correctly in that your main objection to GiH's statement is that the Heartmind has a "memory" or "beliefs" after death?

 

What causes the rebirth that brings about manifestation as a human and not - say - as a dog or a bug?

 

 

p.s. thanks for the references.

More or less - I think that the common interpretation of "reincarnation" or "rebirth" is one in which we imagine that there is something coherent of us as individuals that persist after death and is reborn. Whether this is our memories or beliefs or personalities or all of the above. It is also possible to look at the early Buddhist transmissions in a different way, which is the way I "imagine" it.

 

There is the individual human (or animal or plant) and the unique combination of genetics, experience, memory, knowledge, conditioning, and all of that is "stored" if you will in the brain/body. Suffusing all of this and animating it is the heartmind which could be looked at as the source of consciousness or awareness, the spark of life, dependent origination of experience... whatever. I don't want to get into a semantic debate about what to call "it."

 

So when the body dies and the brain dies, what is left? Is there some entity that continues beyond true death that houses memories, beliefs, personality - "me" and my unique make-up? I think not. How would that remain? What shape would it take? How would it separate itself from heartmind? How would it persist and experience the bardos beyond death? I just don't buy it.

 

My current feeling is that once the body/brain dies, "me" is no longer. Heartmind continues. Heartmind is that which "is." It is what allows "me" to feel that I am "me." Every living thing is me, no living thing feels like they are other than me - the heartmind. And every rebirth is the manifestation of heartmind in whatever particular organic form that arises. There is nothing that " causes the rebirth that brings about manifestation as a human and not - say - as a dog or a bug?" simply because there are dogs and there are bugs and there are humans. All arise and all are "me." There is always birth and death and every me is me, the awareness of heartmind manifesting as me in different forms. And the conglomeration of all the me's everywhere combines somehow to form the glory of existence.

 

Every tradition that guides us to heartmind points at the fact that there is some state of being (or non-being, please let's not get bogged down in semantics) which is sullied and obscured by our conditioning, desires, choices, whatever. To approach this "experience" we simply need to let go of these obstacles, allow the dust to settle or the clouds to part and allow the purity of heartmind to shine through. So what sullies or obscures heartmind is simply all of that stored in the brain/body and once that is gone there is nothing left but the purity of heartmind. And we can get glimpses of this and even learn to abide in it for relatively extended periods of "time" with a little practice. But I don't think there is anything that exists beyond death to cloud it.

 

What does persist is the social and cultural conditioning that is passed from generation to generation that causes each "reborn" expression of heartmind to find itself again lost in the mire of samsara. And so the Mahayana tradition asks us to strive for the liberation of all sentient beings. In other words, we must rid ourselves of the yoke of social and cultural conditioning, for total enlightenment to occur. But we also are taught that nirvana is samsara and that tells me that the Buddhists understand that there will always be suffering as long as there is life. The two are Yin and Yang. While we live we can connect with heartmind but we also experience samsara. Perhaps after we die there can be glimpses of samsara within nirvana. I don't know and can't know right now so it's not worth worrying or arguing about that and I simply don't accept such assertions which to me are religious dogma.

 

Sorry to be so wordy but this helps me to sort of work through this stuff and clarify it for myself. Words just don't do it justice but this is the direct experience I've had so until something is compelling enough to make me feel otherwise, that's how I see it....

[Vmarco]

[Aetherous]

I think the true Christian spirit would side with those opinions...and be in direct opposition to any sort of human brutality or control, and personal dishonesty. But that is not the topic of this thread, so...

[dawei]

Did you ever feel the heart and the mind are not two distinct things? And not even individually one distinct thing each? They are a part of something outside of yourself?

 

In the Book of poetry, it said XIN was the center of being.

 

For those who want it to remain physical, you can think of it as ONE joint item; but it is is not truly that. Just let go of it and see where it goes.

[Informer]

I think the problem with chinese is the ill defined centers, such as LDT, MDT, UDT.

 

It's my opinion that describing it with more variables initially defined most beneficial. But that is a personal perspective.

 

I do have a question in these regards, which is how is the solar plexus (fire) differentiated from Heart in regards to gateway locations?

 

Edit sp.