[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Alfred E]

It seems that we have found a subject that can be agreed upon from many viewpoints !

[Aaron]

Hello people,

 

I apologize, I didn't know we were waiting to start chapter two. I posted the next chapter earlier today. I should've read the thread more clearly, but there was a lot posted and I only glossed over most of it and missed the reference. If you wish to wait until the conversation is finished on one, I think that's fine. I thought it might be good to post a chapter, let it sit for a couple days and then post the next. People can still talk about the previous chapter, but it also allows us to continue to the next with thoughts on the prior one still fresh in our minds. If you don't agree with that method, then that's fine too. Either way it works. I like seeing people's viewpoints, especially the various ideas people are mentioning regarding the history and characters, I've actually learned a lot and come away with a different perspective on the chapter.

 

Aaron

[rene]

Hey Aaron, I think one every other day would be a good pace; sequential with the same subject line style... to make it easier for Mal to find 'em later for moving them up. Your commentary in the next following posts makes for a good start too. Fun stuff.

[Aaron]

Well I can see by the various replies that there are many people more knowledgable than I about this stuff, so I'd rather leave the commentary to other people. If I have something to add, I will, but I'm trying to listen to the rain drops right now.

 

Aaron

[rene]

Rain eh? Still snowing here. (-: You'll start the chapters up though? I'll toss the Feng/English version in each one near the start and we'll see what comes along. I like the variety of comments this one is getting, new stuff to think about!

[Aaron]

Rain eh? Still snowing here. (-: You'll start the chapters up though? I'll toss the Feng/English version in each one near the start and we'll see what comes along. I like the variety of comments this one is getting, new stuff to think about!

 

Hello Rene,

 

I'll pop the Feng/English up there along with the Wu if you want.

 

Aaron

[rene]

Hello Rene,

 

I'll pop the Feng/English up there along with the Wu if you want.

 

Aaron

 

Nah, I'll do it. I want to whack Marblehead with it on the way up.

 

Thanks!

[majc]

Hi Majc,

 

Nicely done. Are you a surfer? (I had to ask.)

You mean proper water waves? Not right now, sadly. Maybe one day - I love the outlook.

 

majc, hi (-:

Hey.

 

Nice expression! I read a bit of the rest of your rendition on your website. Regarding this, from your post,

 

As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance".

 

This isn't about "balance" - it's about attempted exclusion.

 

My perspective finds that the TTC is about all aspects of Tao; including both the mysterious and its reflection in things manifest. Not just one or the other - both. And even moreso than that - our experiencing both at the same time.

Precisely! That is the distinction contained in those two lines!

(Is it worth noting that "shedding your notions" is an action which does still involve notions? )

 

 

If LiErh wanted to emphasize, as you suggest, only part of Tao, i.e., the essence and not the application, I doubt he'd have bothered with most of it, including..say... Chapter 11 - (May I use yours?)

 

We join thirty spokes at a wheel's hub.

The hole in the middle moves the cart.

 

We mould clay into a pot.

The emptiness inside is useful.

 

We build walls to make a house.

The space is where we live.

 

Adapt what is.

Use what is not.

 

On the surface, which is where most TTC readers start, those words have nothing about Tao's essense and everything about its usefulness in application.

(Of course you can use mine!) What do you mean by Tao's "essence"? Ch 11 is a very simple demonstration of mutuality. The emphasis placed on what is not in nearly all previous English versions has been added by the translator. Neither what is nor what is not is emphasized in mine: a hole with no spokes around it moves no cart.

 

"This kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is not Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu."

 

I cant speak for LiErh, but for me, ignoring half of the whole would be the forced action; which is why those two lines in Ch 1 work as a pretty good litmus.

 

warm regards

Agreed on the first part about forced action. But what about ignoring the limitation of words and symbols (as the preceding lines so succinctly explain)? I think the two lines you're referring to may only be a litmus test for the intention of the writer:

 

If their intention is to wrap comprehensive imagery around the Tao in order to contain a certain fixed understanding of The Way Things Are in words, they will take care to present a notionally "balanced" view.

 

If their expression is free of this intention to obtain or contain a fixed understanding... or in other words, if instead of making a conscious effort to explain the Tao, their action is something more along the lines of a written celebration, filled with wonder at the very act of exploring what-it's-like-to-try-to-understand-The-Way-Things-Are, for its own sake...

 

Well that's what mine is about...

[Marblehead]

Marblehead, my bafflement with this discussion is exactly the issue of topic, there appears to be none.

 

you cant meaningfully discuss a book w/o stating explicitly why this book was ever written in the first place.

 

why somebody took a writing utensil to a bamboo plank 2,500 years ago. what he was trying to sell? What did the buyers believe they were buying?

 

unless you people answer those questions you dont know what exactly you are discussing.

 

calling it a bible seems to be off the mark since the bible WAS written as a clearly religious manual. On the other hand TTC does not give any importance to gods, religious rituals or divine commandments. So its not a religious manual.

 

What is it?

 

Hi TianShi,

 

Valid points. Of course, there are books written concerning the conditions in China when the TTC was written. The period of the "Warring States" was a very difficult time in China's history. This is when the TTC was written. Seems to me that Lao Tzu was simply suggesting that there might be a better way of living beside constantly killing each other.

 

No, I have never equated the TTC with the Christian Bible. There is a world of difference between the two. More than anything else in the TTC I see a theme of "If you do this, that will likely happen." For me, I see the TTC as a guide for living my life. There is no dogma in the TTC - it is a guide. We are free to take whatever path we wish to take.

 

We are told to observe the processes in nature and attempt to live our life as close as possible consistent with these processes. This is sometimes referred to as "the watercourse way". Doing what would naturally happen in our life if we did nothing. But really, we can't always do this because we must avoid the tiger's claws, the horn of the rhino, the sword of our enemy.

 

So we are told to be aware of our surroundings. Know where the tiger lies in wait and avoid being its supper. Know your enemies and never underestimate their capacities and capabilities and know how to avoid his sword.

 

Why is the TTC of value? Because the concepts contained within are just as valid today as they were 2500 years ago. Don't overdo things. Moderation. Live naturally. Be true to your Self. Etc, etc. Escellent guides for living, I think.

[Marblehead]

well ppl just dont wanna c it, but its right there in the text. The ruler should do this, the ruler should do that. In that harsh age the human exsistence was all about survival. Its a survival manual for the ruler.

 

What you say here is only half true. I do agree that about two-thirds of the TTC was directed toward rulers but those very same concepts can be used at the individual level for the average person to live their life by.

 

In my opinion there is nothing in the TTC that cannot be applied at the individual level.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Nah, I'll do it. I want to whack Marblehead with it on the way up.

 

Thanks!

 

Hehehe. That's funny! True, but funny!

 

I am beginning to like Dr Wang's work more each time I look at it. A battle between Feng and Wang! Yea!!! Take your battle stations! Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

(Is it worth noting that "shedding your notions" is an action which does still involve notions? )

 

Although this concept is not part of Ch 1, it is an important concept in Taoism that is often overlooked.

 

I'm sure there will be opportunity for me to speak more on this later.

[manitou]

I can't see how relating philosophical Taoism to a religion is bad, unless one decides that religion is bad. If thats so, I think the problem stems more from one's concept of religion than it does Taoism.

 

 

 

Religion is bad. Period. And I don't even believe in good or bad. This is my one exception, LOL. The fact that the Tao can't be talked about seems to remove the dogma aspect from the Tao, as opposed to other religions who fill our heads with structure and fable. My guess is as far as 'religions' go (if someone insists on calling the Tao a religion) it is the most structureless and therefore very expedient for ultimate enlightenment. Seems to me atheism is closer to enlightenment than most religions because they don't have to undo the structure of anything. The essence of the Tao seems to be no-structure.

[Guest allan]

[Procurator]

What you say here is only half true. I do agree that about two-thirds of the TTC was directed toward rulers but those very same concepts can be used at the individual level for the average person to live their life by.

 

so you r saying that "an average person" is privy to a mistery of misteries.

 

really?

[Alfred E]

so you r saying that "an average person" is privy to a mistery of misteries.

 

really?

TTC contains the Essence of Chinese Culture.

The way they walk in the crowded streets.

The way they raise their children.

The way they live and die.

The way remembered.

It is China.

[majc]

Although this concept is not part of Ch 1, it is an important concept in Taoism that is often overlooked.

Ch 1 is the simplest, minimalist, compressed expression of the whole thing. The other 80 chapters aid and reinforce its unpacking.

 

 

We are told to observe the processes in nature and attempt to live our life as close as possible consistent with these processes.

Sort of, except well, no... we're not really told to do that at all. The TTC is more like an open invitation to recognize our relationship with the world.

 

 

This is sometimes referred to as "the watercourse way". Doing what would naturally happen in our life if we did nothing. But really, we can't always do this [...]

Doing nothing is a seriously awkward definition... but ok, so when was the last time you did anything else?

 

 

[...] because we must avoid the tiger's claws, the horn of the rhino, the sword of our enemy.

So you're saying that avoiding these things isn't a watercourse way?

 

 

So we are told to be aware of our surroundings. Know where the tiger lies in wait and avoid being its supper. Know your enemies and never underestimate their capacities and capabilities and know how to avoid his sword.

 

Why is the TTC of value? Because the concepts contained within are just as valid today as they were 2500 years ago. Don't overdo things. Moderation. Live naturally. Be true to your Self. Etc, etc. Escellent guides for living, I think.

doh.

 

Name 1 out of 7 billion human beings right now on the earth who isn't living naturally...

 

Actually wait, now you mention it, just the other week I saw this guy who was really annoyed by gravity so he decided to float everywhere instead, and then he planted a star in his back garden, stopped his heartbeat for a year, pulled a family of elephants out of an average post office envelope, and ate his own head. It was awesome.

Edited November 29, 2010 by majc

[rene]

:giggle:

[rene]

(Is it worth noting that "shedding your notions" is an action which does still involve notions? )

Yep. Kinda like staying drunk to avoid drinking.

 

 

 

Agreed on the first part about forced action. But what about ignoring the limitation of words and symbols (as the preceding lines so succinctly explain)? I think the two lines you're referring to may only be a litmus test for the intention of the writer:

Yeah, that's what I meant. A good barometer of what's to come.

 

 

 

If their intention is to wrap comprehensive imagery around the Tao in order to contain a certain fixed understanding of The Way Things Are in words, they will take care to present a notionally "balanced" view. If their expression is free of this intention to obtain or contain a fixed understanding... or in other words, if instead of making a conscious effort to explain the Tao, their action is something more along the lines of a written celebration, filled with wonder at the very act of exploring what-it's-like-to-try-to-understand-The-Way-Things-Are, for its own sake...Well that's what mine is about...

For its own sake? Careful, you're starting to sound like an ornamental-methodite. I dont think we're in disagreement here, as long as the avoided conscious effort to explain also doesn't include a conscious effort of how one is supposed to explore.

 

warm regards

[Apech]

Just for the sake of joining in the discussion here is Richard John Lynn's translation:

 

The Dao that can be described in language is not the constant Dao; the name that can be given is not its constant name.

Nameless, it is the origin of the myriad things; named, it is the mother of the myriad things.

Therefore, always be without desire so as to see their subtlety.

And always have desire so as to see their ends.

These two emerge together but have different names. Together, we refer to them as mystery: the mystery upon mystery and gateway of all subtleties.

 

I particularly like TianShi's challenge to say what this book is for. This is a really good point and I think the idea of a survival manual for rulers is about right (if I have understood what is being said). I think there is a tendency to kind of fall in love with the mystery in this text and forget that it is a very practical text. It is practical because it cuts straight to the heart of things by saying 'ok, what exactly are we talking about'. But even if this was written for rulers on an individual level we can say that we are all rulers of our own worlds and so the advice applies as much to us as to a king in ancient China.

[majc]

Yep. Kinda like staying drunk to avoid drinking.

Ha, maybe... or it could be more like understanding that, as part of being a human being, beliefs and notions do arise, and that this is not something to be opposed, but rather taken in stride.

 

 

For its own sake? Careful, you're starting to sound like an ornamental-methodite.

Cross-thread reference, huh? Kerpow! Very nice. hehe, I never said I couldn't be what you call ornamental - I only disagree with making the distinction that it is somehow "better" than being idle.

 

 

I dont think we're in disagreement here, as long as the avoided conscious effort to explain also doesn't include a conscious effort of how one is supposed to explore.

 

warm regards

That's exactly right. And being idle might sometimes be an important part of one's way of exploring. No particular method of exploring is 'correct', or even crucial. And therefore all such notions should be shed to fly with the way of things exactly as they are in this current moment. Otherwise you're in your own way. S'all I'm sayin'!

[Marblehead]

HI Majc,

 

Ch 1 is the simplest, minimalist, compressed expression of the whole thing. The other 80 chapters aid and reinforce its unpacking.

 

Exactly.

 

Sort of, except well, no... we're not really told to do that at all. The TTC is more like an open invitation to recognize our relationship with the world.

 

I agree, the word 'told' is not the proper word. It is a suggestion. Well, sure, an invitation ... as well.

 

Doing nothing is a seriously awkward definition... but ok, so when was the last time you did anything else?

 

The only time I actually 'do nothing' is when I am in deep meditation and the chatter in my brain has ceased. But my body is still functioning so I guess I have never 'done nothing'.

 

So you're saying that avoiding these things isn't a watercourse way?

 

No. And this is a lead-in to your next comments.

 

doh.

 

Name 1 out of 7 billion human beings right now on the earth who isn't living naturally...

 

Actually wait, now you mention it, just the other week I saw this guy who was really annoyed by gravity so he decided to float everywhere instead, and then he planted a star in his back garden, stopped his heartbeat for a year, pulled a family of elephants out of an average post office envelope, and ate his own head. It was awesome.

 

Hehehe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have had this discussion many times before. What is natural regarding what we do? I still don't have a good response. Maybe one day. The closest I have ever come to an answer that satisfies me is that whatever we are doing, if we are at peace with our inner Self, we are living naturally.

 

So yes, I suppose that it could be said that Hitler was living naturally while he was killing those millions of Jews if he was at peace with himself while doing it.

 

But, if we consider the metaphor of the new-born calf, all that calf wants is to be left alone to be itself and suckle its mother whenever it is hungry or in need of a bit of security.

 

So, put in human terms, to be left alone to be itself and satisfy its basic needs. This would exclude excessive ego and most desires. I think a person can gain happiness (contentment) with just these basics.

[3bob]

HI Majc,

 

But, if we consider the metaphor of the new-born calf, all that calf wants is to be left alone to be itself and suckle its mother whenever it is hungry or in need of a bit of security.

 

So, put in human terms, to be left alone to be itself and satisfy its basic needs. This would exclude excessive ego and most desires. I think a person can gain happiness (contentment) with just these basics.

 

"So yes, I suppose that it could be said that Hitler was living naturally while he was killing those millions of Jews if he was at peace with himself while doing it".

 

Imo not really, and not at all - for even a "Hitler" does not exist without the Tao - thus beings can only bend or go against that which is also of their own ultimate nature for so long and then, "whatever is against Tao soon ceases to be". (TTC 55) Which to me refutes any idea of Tao being democratically minded, for no separate vote or action against it can stand.

 

Om

[Procurator]

. But even if this was written for rulers on an individual level we can say that we are all rulers of our own worlds and so the advice applies as much to us as to a king in ancient China.

it does. if other individuals are "straw dogs" to us, that is a big if.

[Procurator]

TTC contains the Essence of Chinese Culture.

..The way remembered.

It is China.

Dear Alfred

 

the 18th century called, they want their myths back.