[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I just now saw what I typed. "Mice"? Where did the mice come from?

 

Can you understand why I don't let my fingers do the walking very often?

 

Yes, there are many chapters for you to catch up with us on. Enjoy!

[DrumR]

Continuing the comparative examination of the

Tao Te Ching: Part 1; The Way, Chapter 1.

 

The Tao has also been called The Way and the path. The Tao has been compared with a narrow and winding un-beaten track.

 

"A way can be a guide but not a fixed path;

names can be given but not permanent labels." - <1>

 

"The Way you can go isn't the real way.

The name you can say isn't the real name." - <2>

 

Similar to a deer trail in the wood it is most difficult to describe to others the fullness of the experience of following an un-specified track located in an area that few people would visit or even know exist.

 

Compounding this is the lack of solid definitive words in language to describe that experiential "something" to someone else lacking in same. Today we may resort to saying "You would have had to have been there," communicating little concerning that experience to, in most cases, an un-prepared and un-accepting mind.

 

"Existence is beyond the power of words to define:

terms may be used but none of them are absolute" -<3>

 

Thus one is "stuck" while trying to explain to others, with what may initially appear to be a deliberate exercise of obfuscation, by repeating the same tired ritual of:

 

"The Tao that can be followed is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name." - <4>

 

"Tao can be talked about but not the Eternal Tao

Names can be named but not the eternal name." -<5>

 

"The Tao that can be told of is not the Absolute Tao;

The Names that can be given are not the absolute Names." - <6>

 

Yet even that basic message can be seen as influenced by one philosophy:

 

"The person of superior integrity

does not insist upon his integrity;

For this reason he has integrity.

The person of inferior integrity

never loses sight of his integrity;

for this reason he lacks integrity." - <7>

 

or another:

 

"I teach the integral Way of uniting with the great and mysterious Tao.

My teachings are simple; if you try to make a religion or science of them,

they will elude you.

Profound yet plain, the contain the entire truth of the universe" - <8>

 

Of course this may add to the level of confusion perceived by the curious inquirer's initial attempts to "figure out" this whole Tao business.

 

 

References:

1) Thomas Cleary, The Essential Tao.

2) Ursal K. Le Guin, Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching

3) Witter Bynner, The Way of life - according to Lao Tzu

4) Charles Muller,

5) John C.H. Wu, Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu

6) Lin Yutang, The Wisdom of China and India, Modern Library

7) Victor H. Mair, Tao Te Ching: The classic book of Integrity and The Way

8) Brian Walker, Hua Hu Ching: The teachings of Lao Tzu.

 

Notes:

Cross-posted with permission of author (myself) from interfaith org forums

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You got your own permission to copy your own stuff. I like that.

 

I enjoyed reading your post. It added nicely to the thread and to the concepts within Chapter 1.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[DrumR]

Continuing the comparative examination of the

Tao Te Ching: Part 1; The Way, Chapter 1, second verse pair.

My continuing Stumblings Concerning the Hap-Hazard Way.

 

Of course this may add to the level of confusion perceived by the curious inquirer's initial attempts to "figure out" this whole Tao business.

 

A lesson from Zen Buddhism may add to the clarity, then again it may enhance the confusion factor as well.

"The reflection of the moon upon the surface of a still pond is but a reflection, it is not the moon itself."

Such is the difficulty when speaking of the Tao, the words we may use are but a shallow reflection of the real thing; the True Tao is beyond direct human description - thus we resort to metaphor and even these attempts are found wanting. To me, the Tao is some nebulous "thing" that must be personally experienced to be understood.

 

Second Verse Pair.

non-being is called the begining of heaven and earth;

being is called the mother of all things. -<1>

heaven and earth begin in the unamed:

name's the mother of the ten thousand things. -<2>

The Tao is un-categorical. as soon as distinctions are drawn, even by so little as a thought, aspects of the Tao are separated from the "oneness" of the Tao and the number of these things is beyond infinite.

 

"Wait a minute," one may say, "infinity is the largest number - there is no thing larger than infinity!"

Which is of course a rational way of thinking. But I hasten to point out that the Tao is not part of a rational system and, thus, the concept of Tao contains all including an infinity of infinities. Now that should up the confusion factor quite a bit.

 

References:

1) Thomas Cleary

1) Ursala K. Le Guin

Notes:

Cross-posted with permission of author (myself) from interfaith org forums

[DrumR]

Continuing the comparative examination of the

Tao Te Ching: Part 1; The Way, Chapter 1, third verse pair.

My continuing Stumblings Concerning the Hap-Hazard Way.

 

But I hasten to point out that the Tao is not part of a rational system and, thus, the concept of Tao contains all including an infinity of infinities. Now that should up the confusion factor quite a bit.

 

The Tao is all about one. That which we may detect with our senses see, hear, smell, taste and touch is at once the dawning of the first proof and the asking of the primal question.

 

The secret awaits in sight of eyes unclouded by longing;

Those who are bound by desire see only the outward container.

 

These two come paired but are distinct by their names.

Of all things profound, say that their pairing is deepest - R.B. Blakney<1>

Therefore;

Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion

in order to see the Secret of Life;

Oftentimes, one regards life with passion,

in order to see its manifest results.

 

These two (the Secret and its manifestations)

are (in their nature) the same;

They are given different names when they become manifest. - Lin Yutang<2>

The secret of the Tao being introduced,

 

And whether a man see to the dispassionate core of life

Or passionately sees the surface,

The core and the surface are essentially the same,

Words making them seem different only to express appearance.

 

If Name be needed, wonder names the both:

from wonder into wonder Existence opens. - Whitter Bynner<3>

as is the wonder

 

Thus, if always without desire, one can observe the indescribable marvels;

If always desirous, one sees the merest traces.

 

These two come from the same source but are differently named. - Man-jen Cheng/Tam C. Gibbs<4>

and the marvels to be found

So as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:

As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.

 

These two flow from the same source, though differently named:

And both are called mysteries. - John C.H. Wu <5>

and where to look, yet the difficulty is not reduced.

 

Passion, desire, longing show to one the manifestations on the senses of the Tao.

Yet the true experience of the Tao requires of one to engage in that dispassionate examination from within to find the explanations what our senses tell us is all about us.

 

In an effort to name the common source we are faced with adding more labels. Each label, pertaining to one or more aspects of the Tao, is only partially correct yet each label is the same thing viewed from but a different perspective. Each perspective provides a clue, but they are not complete individually or in summation.

 

Thus the hidden secret exists as it is beyond human expression to name or speak or even write about it directly. The true secret will remain so only for the lack of human ability and the lack of medium(s) with which to describe it to others.

 

 

 

References:

1) The Way of Life Lao Tzu - R.B. Blakney

2) The Wisdom of China and Asia Lao Tzu: The Book of the Tao - Lin Yutang

3) The Way of Life according to Lao Tzu - Whitter Bynner

4) Lao Tzu: "My words are very easy to understand" - Man-jen Cheng/Tam C. Gibbs

5) Tao Teh Ching - John C.H. Wu

Notes:

Cross-posted with permission of author (myself) from interfaith org forums

Edited January 19, 2011 by DrumR

[DrumR]

Continuing the comparative examination of the

Tao Te Ching: Part 1; The Way, Chapter 1, The ending and a beginning.

My continuing Stumblings Concerning the Hap-Hazard Way.

Thus the hidden secret exists as it is beyond human expression to name or speak or even write about it directly. The true secret will remain so only for the lack of human ability and the lack of medium(s) with which to describe it to others.

 

Taoism is classed as a "Mystery Religion" based upon its supposed unknowable quality. The secret of secrets or the mystery of mysteries and the gateway to all, is the common last portion of the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching and adds to that assumption, so why bother?

 

Taoism does not require that one have "faith" or to take its lessons and principals on trust. Similar to a body-building exercise-plan, reading just does not build up muscular bulk any more than does mere discussion of that plan put on the pounds of lean, supple, and dynamic muscle tissue.

 

Much like the body building plan above that relationship applies to the personal and spiritual growth aspects of the Tao, for Tao does require that one engage upon and participate in those daily exercises needed to attain the ultimate goal.

 

The mysterious aspects of the Tao, indeed much of the explanations of this first and pivotal chapter of the Tao Teh Ching, I have found best explained by Deng Ming-Dao, daily reading #326 entitled, of all things, "Mysticism." I take the liberty to provide a reduced excerpt here:

 

All mystical traditions are as one. They are the seed of all religions...

<snip>

All cultures know a mystical core that emphasis continuing refinement, meditation, and unification with the greater cosmos. I call that greater order Tao. They call it by different names. What does it matter what people call it? When they discovered what was holy, they uttered different sounds according to their history and culture, but they all discovered the same thing. There is only one divine source in life.

 

For generations mystics of all religions have plunged into Tao. When they met on the unutterable levels, they know without words that they have reached the same core of spirituality. No matter where in the world you are, there are traditions with the purity to lead you to Tao. - <1>

It is most difficult to try to improve on the above. Yet one should look at it as but a beginning towards a most desirable and attainable end.

 

References:

1) 365 Tao Daily Meditations - Deng Ming-Dao; Pub. Harper Collins.

Notes:

Cross-posted with permission of author (myself) from interfaith org forums

[DrumR]

Thanks for the reply, Marblehead, and yes it was a long and difficult decision whether to cross post ot not but the committee, consisting of me, myself, and I, had finally arrived at a consensus.

 

Please note that the Henricks translation is not included in the comparative evaluation series above. For I have waited for the "dust to settle" given the new found scrolls of some few years ago, last century I believe, and am now awaiting that translation to arrive (the winter snows appear to have slowed the progress of the camel caravan ) in these mountains. I may then review my initial comparisons.

[Marblehead]

Please note that the Henricks translation is not included ...

 

I think you are doing great without Henricks' translation. Mostly it is the concepts we are wishing to understand and the individual words are not all that important.

 

Please keep up the great work.

[Conwaypk]

Okay so I've sat down and read all of the comments posted so far (took me a couple days hah) and there are a couple questions I have and some things I would like to input. This is my first time being talking with other Taoists so I hope my input is..well..I'm excited

 

So here I go.

 

My response to Verse 1 comes from this translation by Jonathon Star (I posted this book in the Translators of the TTC).

 

A way that can be walked

is not The Way

A name that can be named

is not The Name

 

Tao is both Named and Nameless

As Nameless, it is the origin of all things

As Named, it is the mother of all things

 

A mind free of thought,

merged within itself,

beholds the essence of Tao

A mind filled with thought,

identified with its own perceptions,

beholds the mere forms of this world

 

Tao and this world seem different

but in truth they are one and the same

The only difference is in what we call them

 

How deep and mysterious is this unity

How profound, how great!

It is the truth beyond the truth,

the hidden within the hidden

It is the path to all wonder,

the gate to the essence of everything!

 

I've read the many translations given on here so far and I've also seen some comments about the separateness and unity of the Tao. I have to say that the first time I read about how people would be falling into a trap if they view the Tao as separate parts odd: I had always assumed the Tao WAS One unified, although it had 2 parts, it is one "thing/force". Being a "beginner" I wonder if I simply wasn't reading thoroughly enough to even come to that point, or if in my newness I had understood the simplicity of the Unity of the Tao off the bat.

 

Here is my view on Verse 1, my take of what it means in my life, and it's applications to my life.

 

 

<A way that can be walked

is not The Way

A name that can be named

is not The Name>

 

Religion. This made me feel that any religion on earth, having a name, is not The ONLY way. That by labelling one's self with a certain word and walking that path is not The ONLY path, the ONLY label that is (perhaps) correct. Because the words The Way and The Name are capitilized, I saw that as important in showing that perhaps there is no ONE way, but rather A way that, if named, must be imperfect. This applied to more than just religion, but especially so in that people have no right claiming that their religion or their way of worship is better than another. It expands in all life where people do not have a right to say one way is better than any other in anything in life, because what works for some people may not work for others, and that if it works for you does not mean it works for everyone else, and if it does not work for you, it may work for someone else.

 

In summation I gather that this small part alone tells me that there are many paths. Because they are named all are imperfect. Because all are imperfect, we as humans should live peacefully with one another knowing that being Human is the only incentive we need to be kind to one another.

 

<Tao is both Named and Nameless

As Nameless, it is the origin of all things

As Named, it is the mother of all things>

 

I have come to learn how "origin of all things" and "mother of all things" differ from one another, and how naming one leads to the "mother" of all things, where leaving it nameless leads to the "origin" of all things. I agree that the "origin" would mean its indescribable features, where "mother" would mean its appearance in the physical realm.

 

<A mind free of thought,

merged within itself,

beholds the essence of Tao

A mind filled with thought,

identified with its own perceptions,

beholds the mere forms of this world>

 

Simply, that no matter how one meditiates, the point is that merging within one's self, one finds the "answers(?)" or "essence" of all things, rather than just the seen/visibile outer appearances of what our senses gather. That by not merging within ourselves, we lose a very valuable part of life.

 

<Tao and this world seem different

but in truth they are one and the same

The only difference is in what we call them>

 

This is why I feel I so simply "got" what this passage says here. It explains right here, that the only difference, though a difference, is by their name. They are the same.

 

<How deep and mysterious is this unity

How profound, how great!

It is the truth beyond the truth,

the hidden within the hidden

It is the path to all wonder,

the gate to the essence of everything!>

 

The terms "How deep" and "how great" tells me that not everyone will be able to grasp this concept. People are too riddled in their own specific views to ever think any lesser of themselves for the better of humanity. Something I think is a drastic error that needs to be fixed by God (I am a Christian with, thus far, no denomination) for the betterment of the condition of our lives in general.

 

So...that's about it for now.

 

Let me know what you think please!!

[Paulw]

I do like your grasp on it though I feel for me that it is not a religion as such, more a philosophy written by a wise man a long time ago as guidance for those who would be interested.

 

Have another look at what tao means, often referred to as "the way", the way things work throughout nature and including all life are very similar and always relative, to label anything living or inanimate would be to carve the uncarved block.

[Conwaypk]

I do like your grasp on it though I feel for me that it is not a religion as such, more a philosophy written by a wise man a long time ago as guidance for those who would be interested.

 

Have another look at what tao means, often referred to as "the way", the way things work throughout nature and including all life are very similar and always relative, to label anything living or inanimate would be to carve the uncarved block.

 

I see. I feel like Taoism is a religion for me. By religion I mean way I live my life. I see Taoism as a guide, a tool, to how I should live my life and in living with "goodness" this is my worship and thanks to God.

 

Philosopohically though Taoism is probably more powerful to me.

 

I don't know how to differentiate the 2, I feel like Taoism in my life is both religious and philosophical.

 

What would you say is the difference in Taoism between a religious or philosophical application in one's life, or is there a difference at all? This is an issue I'm currently dealing with my very young life (I'm 20). I've just been calling myself a Christian-Tao.

[Marblehead]

Let me know what you think please!!

 

Hi Conwaypk,

 

Yes, I think you have a pretty good handle on it.

 

Yes, I forgive you for calling yourself a Christian. Hehehe.

 

Yes, Taoism is also a religion. (Just another label.)

 

I would point out though:

 

Tao is unknowable.

 

The Way is knowable.

 

This is why I think it is important to use these two words (Tao and Way) in their proper context.

 

IMO, this makes the first line of the translation by Jonathon Star that you offered invalid. The Way (the way of the manifest universe) can be walked.

[Paulw]

I see. I feel like Taoism is a religion for me. By religion I mean way I live my life. I see Taoism as a guide, a tool, to how I should live my life and in living with "goodness" this is my worship and thanks to God.

 

Philosopohically though Taoism is probably more powerful to me.

 

I don't know how to differentiate the 2, I feel like Taoism in my life is both religious and philosophical.

 

What would you say is the difference in Taoism between a religious or philosophical application in one's life, or is there a difference at all? This is an issue I'm currently dealing with my very young life (I'm 20). I've just been calling myself a Christian-Tao.

 

 

First off what ever you wish to call it is fine with me as every persons view on Tao is slightly different, no one is right or wrong, you need to live and experience it to be able to understand it.

 

The difference between religion and Tao, for me I do not believe that a god exists, the Tao shows me that we are all equally on our own personal path that also crosses the paths of others, just as the streams that flow down a mountain, we all take our own direction, when we find a rock in our way we simply flow around it rather than clear our way by destruction, we simply yield to it.

 

There is nothing wrong with being religious so long as you accept every other religion to be also true and that people who do not believe in religion can be equally true to their own self if they so choose.

 

I wish that I had your depth of knowledge when I was twenty life could have been so much easier, when making long journeys many maps are needed

[Conwaypk]

There is nothing wrong with being religious so long as you accept every other religion to be also true and that people who do not believe in religion can be equally true to their own self if they so choose.

 

I do!

 

[i apologize I haven't figured out how to multiquote yet]

 

Marblehead: "I would point out though:

 

Tao is unknowable.

 

The Way is knowable.

 

This is why I think it is important to use these two words (Tao and Way) in their proper context.

 

IMO, this makes the first line of the translation by Jonathon Star that you offered invalid. The Way (the way of the manifest universe) can be walked."

 

Wow. That really struck me. Tao is unknowable but the way is knowable. I would ask, if we give The Way a name, does it suddenly not become The Way? That's what I got from that verse:

 

A name that can be named

is not The Name

I took this as referring to the The Way. The Name is what we call The Way. Is this wrong? And because the name that can be named is not The Name, Tao can never be talked about.

 

EDIT: Example: If we named the best path in life Tao, then suddenly it is no longer the best path (by best path I mean The Way). So trying to tell people, take this path, we can not actually know what the path is IF we give it a name. So this would mean Tao can never be talked about, if we are to try to present it to people who say may be looking for spiritual guidance, etc.?

 

(I'm pretty sure I'm arguing against myself right now haha, sorry about that)

 

Are The Way and The Name not related? I was thinking that Tao IS The Way, that Tao IS..well..the best good for a persons life, making it THE path everyone would benefit most from.

 

If you can make sense out the mess I just created, you are a text ninja

Edited March 3, 2011 by Conwaypk

[Marblehead]

Hi Conway, (We are on first name basis now. Hehehe.)

 

I will attempt to speak to everything in your post.

 

Marblehead: "I would point out though:

 

Tao is unknowable.

 

The Way is knowable.

 

This is why I think it is important to use these two words (Tao and Way) in their proper context.

 

IMO, this makes the first line of the translation by Jonathon Star that you offered invalid. The Way (the way of the manifest universe) can be walked."

 

Wow. That really struck me. Tao is unknowable but the way is knowable. I would ask, if we give The Way a name, does it suddenly not become The Way? That's what I got from that verse:

 

A name that can be named

is not The Name

I took this as referring to the The Way. The Name is what we call The Way. Is this wrong? And because the name that can be named is not The Name, Tao can never be talked about.

 

Let me first speak to the idea of names (words). Chuang Tzu told us that words are used to convey a thought or concept. Once the concept has been grasped the words can be forgotten. The same with names, titles, labels, etc. Once we understand what is being named we can forget about the name. Just as in my opening to this post, I said "Hi Conway". I am not going to continue mentioning your name because it is already understood that I am speaking to (with) you.

 

To say "Tao" wea re referring to everything that presently exists, has ever existed, and will ever exist to include what was before any thing was and this includes all potential as well as the gods or One God or whatever one wishes to credit existence, creation and the forces of the universe. But no, it really wouldn't be right to call God "Tao", in my opinion. Tao can never be identified as a thing because it is every thing. So the word "Tao" can never be completely and accurately described.

 

The "Way" is not a noun. It is a verb - an action verb, if you will. The action of Tao, that is, the way Tao takes action.

 

Chapter 25 speaks to this. Derek Lin's translation last four lines:

 

Humans follow the laws of Earth

Earth follows the laws of Heaven

Heaven follows the laws of Tao

Tao follows the laws of nature.

 

(Not my favorite translation but good for the discussion.)

 

I will rephrase this now (backwards)

 

The Way of Tao is its own naturalness.

The Way of Heaven is modelled on the Way of Tao.

The Way of Earth is modelled on the Way of Heaven.

The Way of Humans is modelled on the Way of Earth.

 

When we observe the ways of Earth and its ten thousand things we see processes constantly in play. All thing operate within their potential ('limitations' would not be a good word to use here). This is why there is the potential for dualities such as 'good and bad', 'beautiful and ugly', etc.

 

At this point we need to consider the concept of 'the virtues of humans' although I will not speak to them.

 

So if I were to say that my Way or Path is the path of Tao I would basically saying that I try to live according to the processes found naturally on Earth as well as the virtues of Taoism as defined by the founders of the philosophy or religion. I point this out because there are some processes in Earth's nature that, if done by a human, would be frowned upon.

 

However, the important thing is how we live our life and how we interact with the other ten thousand things. We can call ourself a Taoist but if we act like an ass we really are an ass and not a Taoist. We have to walk our talk in order to not be a hypocrite. This goes for any philosophy of life or religion. The name is just an identifier - the thing itself is what is being referred to. Like the word "moon". It is just a word to identify the thing being referred to.

 

EDIT: Example: If we named the best path in life Tao, then suddenly it is no longer the best path (by best path I mean The Way). So trying to tell people, take this path, we can not actually know what the path is IF we give it a name. So this would mean Tao can never be talked about, if we are to try to present it to people who say may be looking for spiritual guidance, etc.?

 

That's a tough one. Hehehe. Let's try this:

 

"I am a Taoist." Now what does that mean? Doesn't it mean that I follow the Way of Tao? But what is the Way of Tao? Tao follows itself. Tao causes stars to blow up. I can't do that. The Heavens create new stars. I can't do that. The Earth explodes volcanoes. I can't do that. Wow! There is so much I cannot do that Tao can. This is because I am limited by the potential of what I am - a human.

 

Now, I can speak to how I conduct myself when interacting with the ten thousnad things and other humans. This would be called my philosophy of life. We each have one of those even though some peoples' philosophy of life changes much more often than others' do. So, yes, we can say we are a Taoist. We can say we try to live in accordance with the Way of Tao. These are only words though. My thoughts, actions, and inactions determine what I am, not what I 'call' myself.

 

(I'm pretty sure I'm arguing against myself right now haha, sorry about that)

 

That's good, you know. Questioning our understandings. The best thing we can do for ourself. I do it all the time. Hey, I even question other people just to see if they have a better handle on a concept than I have.

 

Are The Way and The Name not related? I was thinking that Tao IS The Way, that Tao IS..well..the best good for a persons life, making it THE path everyone would benefit most from.

 

The 'Name' is just a label. My name is Marblehead. I am not the name. (Some here would argue that. Hehehe.) However, how I interact with others here on the board is a part of what I am.

 

Whatever name we put on "all that is" is just a name whether we call it Tao or God or whatever. The name is only the finger pointing at the moon.

 

Yes, I feel that the Way of Tao is the best path for one to live their life to the fullest. But we need also to consider others in that as well because we are a part of the community of humans as well as a part of the community of the ten thousand things. We should not do unnecessary, intentional harm to other beings. The Earth erupts with a volcano because it needs to release pressure. I used to erupt in order to release pressure. I haven't had to for some time now as it has been some time now since I have been under any pressure.

 

If you can make sense out the mess I just created, you are a text ninja

 

Well, I tried. Hehehe.

[Conwaypk]

Hi Conway, (We are on first name basis now. Hehehe.)

 

I will attempt to speak to everything in your post.

 

 

 

Let me first speak to the idea of names (words). Chuang Tzu told us that words are used to convey a thought or concept. Once the concept has been grasped the words can be forgotten. The same with names, titles, labels, etc. Once we understand what is being named we can forget about the name. Just as in my opening to this post, I said "Hi Conway". I am not going to continue mentioning your name because it is already understood that I am speaking to (with) you.

 

To say "Tao" wea re referring to everything that presently exists, has ever existed, and will ever exist to include what was before any thing was and this includes all potential as well as the gods or One God or whatever one wishes to credit existence, creation and the forces of the universe. But no, it really wouldn't be right to call God "Tao", in my opinion. Tao can never be identified as a thing because it is every thing. So the word "Tao" can never be completely and accurately described.

 

The "Way" is not a noun. It is a verb - an action verb, if you will. The action of Tao, that is, the way Tao takes action.

 

Chapter 25 speaks to this. Derek Lin's translation last four lines:

 

Humans follow the laws of Earth

Earth follows the laws of Heaven

Heaven follows the laws of Tao

Tao follows the laws of nature.

 

(Not my favorite translation but good for the discussion.)

 

I will rephrase this now (backwards)

 

The Way of Tao is its own naturalness.

The Way of Heaven is modelled on the Way of Tao.

The Way of Earth is modelled on the Way of Heaven.

The Way of Humans is modelled on the Way of Earth.

 

When we observe the ways of Earth and its ten thousand things we see processes constantly in play. All thing operate within their potential ('limitations' would not be a good word to use here). This is why there is the potential for dualities such as 'good and bad', 'beautiful and ugly', etc.

 

At this point we need to consider the concept of 'the virtues of humans' although I will not speak to them.

 

So if I were to say that my Way or Path is the path of Tao I would basically saying that I try to live according to the processes found naturally on Earth as well as the virtues of Taoism as defined by the founders of the philosophy or religion. I point this out because there are some processes in Earth's nature that, if done by a human, would be frowned upon.

 

However, the important thing is how we live our life and how we interact with the other ten thousand things. We can call ourself a Taoist but if we act like an ass we really are an ass and not a Taoist. We have to walk our talk in order to not be a hypocrite. This goes for any philosophy of life or religion. The name is just an identifier - the thing itself is what is being referred to. Like the word "moon". It is just a word to identify the thing being referred to.

 

 

 

That's a tough one. Hehehe. Let's try this:

 

"I am a Taoist." Now what does that mean? Doesn't it mean that I follow the Way of Tao? But what is the Way of Tao? Tao follows itself. Tao causes stars to blow up. I can't do that. The Heavens create new stars. I can't do that. The Earth explodes volcanoes. I can't do that. Wow! There is so much I cannot do that Tao can. This is because I am limited by the potential of what I am - a human.

 

Now, I can speak to how I conduct myself when interacting with the ten thousnad things and other humans. This would be called my philosophy of life. We each have one of those even though some peoples' philosophy of life changes much more often than others' do. So, yes, we can say we are a Taoist. We can say we try to live in accordance with the Way of Tao. These are only words though. My thoughts, actions, and inactions determine what I am, not what I 'call' myself.

 

 

 

That's good, you know. Questioning our understandings. The best thing we can do for ourself. I do it all the time. Hey, I even question other people just to see if they have a better handle on a concept than I have.

 

 

 

The 'Name' is just a label. My name is Marblehead. I am not the name. (Some here would argue that. Hehehe.) However, how I interact with others here on the board is a part of what I am.

 

Whatever name we put on "all that is" is just a name whether we call it Tao or God or whatever. The name is only the finger pointing at the moon.

 

Yes, I feel that the Way of Tao is the best path for one to live their life to the fullest. But we need also to consider others in that as well because we are a part of the community of humans as well as a part of the community of the ten thousand things. We should not do unnecessary, intentional harm to other beings. The Earth erupts with a volcano because it needs to release pressure. I used to erupt in order to release pressure. I haven't had to for some time now as it has been some time now since I have been under any pressure.

 

 

 

Well, I tried. Hehehe.

 

Yes I completely undertsand what you speak of about the concept and use of words. I have discovered that on my own a couple years ago. I had always felt that words were just words, I may call my self a Buddhist but know that I worship Christ. I can tell someone I am a Republican when I know I agree more with Democrats on issues. Just a word.

 

I like that! A verb, not a noun. I had never thought of that approach before.

I think the closest thing to that that I have "felt" or believed was that Tao is the name I have simply given to God's will. Tao comes from God. Simply, Tao is the exerting force of God's will.

 

This is the Christian part of me, the label, that is. To some, Christian may mean believing in the Bible or a million different things. But to me, Christian simply means I believe in the Trinity. Just a label. A word is a shortcut for a larger message, and often these shortcuts are used so much they simply go unquestioned and lose their original meaning. This is why I never tell people my "religion" for I DO claim to be a Christia-Tao. But to understand what that actually means, you really have to ask me questions: what do I feel about abortion, gay rights, etc.

 

YES! I question constantly! My discipline, Parkour, demands constant questioning as to why we are doing certain movements, why are we putting ourselves through such strenous demands, why, why, why? It reinforces what we already know so we do not forget, but also allows new ideas to form and maybe even replace old ones. It is a constant path of evolution and adaptation to one's current and present situation. To question means we are always ready to change and move on in the face of new obstacles whenever they occur.

 

These last few posts have really helped me out a lot! Thanks for taking the time to respond to them

[dawei]

Since Chapter 25 is mentioned, let's not forget what it says earlier in the chapter:

 

We do not know its name

So Style it "Dao" [Way]

Forced to call it a name, we call it "great" - Tr. Richard John Lynn

 

A name is used for shapes and forms; but Dao being without shape or form cannot take on a name. Once you name it, it is make distinct and separate and you lose it. Instead, Lao Zi seems to be designating its attribute. Forced to give it a name, he simply uses "great" (da). Maybe "vast" is more appropriate or "all-encompassing" but it is greater than all things, I think is his point.

 

I think the closest thing to that that I have "felt" or believed was that Tao is the name I have simply given to God's will. Tao comes from God. Simply, Tao is the exerting force of God's will.

I find this an interesting thought on a certain level (I was in conservative christian circles for many years), but because we know the attributes of Dao, that would mean we get the attributes of God. In which case, if they are as Lao Zi presents, then this is ultimately not the christian god nor any god; but it may suggest that Dao is that part of the 'universal' which acts/generates/arises. That Dao is really part of something; that part which Lao Zi talks about.

[Marblehead]

Hi Conway,

 

These last few posts have really helped me out a lot! Thanks for taking the time to respond to them

 

Ou, I have enjoyed it. Discussions such as this help me in clarifying my thoughts and questioning my own beliefs.

 

YES! I question constantly! My discipline, Parkour, demands constant questioning as to why we are doing certain movements, why are we putting ourselves through such strenous demands, why, why, why? It reinforces what we already know so we do not forget, but also allows new ideas to form and maybe even replace old ones. It is a constant path of evolution and adaptation to one's current and present situation. To question means we are always ready to change and move on in the face of new obstacles whenever they occur.

 

Something that was brought to my mind this morning has something to say to this subject.

 

When we are reinforcing our beliefs we need be watchful that we are not reinforcing our illusions and delusions as well as our 'truths'. These illusions and delusions look so much like the 'truth' when they are a part of our belief system.

 

I am glad that you were able to incorporate what I said within your Christian beliefs. I am not a religious person so I need be watchful so that I do not unintentionally insult anyone's religion.

[Marblehead]

Since Chapter 25 is mentioned, let's not forget what it says earlier in the chapter:

 

We do not know its name

So Style it "Dao" [Way]

Forced to call it a name, we call it "great" - Tr. Richard John Lynn

 

A name is used for shapes and forms; but Dao being without shape or form cannot take on a name. Once you name it, it is make distinct and separate and you lose it. Instead, Lao Zi seems to be designating its attribute. Forced to give it a name, he simply uses "great" (da). Maybe "vast" is more appropriate or "all-encompassing" but it is greater than all things, I think is his point.

 

Exactly. Chuang Tzu spoke to this as well. We cannot define Tao but we can speak to some of the attributes. "Great" is even an understatement. There really is no word for its 'vastness'.

 

I think the closest thing to that that I have "felt" or believed was that Tao is the name I have simply given to God's will. Tao comes from God. Simply, Tao is the exerting force of God's will.

 

I find this an interesting thought on a certain level (I was in conservative christian circles for many years), but because we know the attributes of Dao, that would mean we get the attributes of God. In which case, if they are as Lao Zi presents, then this is ultimately not the christian god nor any god; but it may suggest that Dao is that part of the 'universal' which acts/generates/arises. That Dao is really part of something; that part which Lao Zi talks about.

 

Yeah. I picked up on that as well. But remember, Conway is a Christian so he (I am assuming he is a he. Hehehe.) view Taoist Philosophy from his own referrence point. Whether we be Christian or Taoist we can never "know" the total essence of either. Some people say that this is possible but I find it impossible to accept unless we actually conclude that we are in fact God or Tao. Personally, I do not have the powers and abilities necessary to be Tao or any kind of god.

 

But yes, Conway, at least for now, must keep God at the top of the ladder. He is a religious Christian and follower of (or at least attempting to be) the Taoist philosophy of life.

[Conwaypk]

I find this an interesting thought on a certain level (I was in conservative christian circles for many years), but because we know the attributes of Dao, that would mean we get the attributes of God. In which case, if they are as Lao Zi presents, then this is ultimately not the christian god nor any god; but it may suggest that Dao is that part of the 'universal' which acts/generates/arises. That Dao is really part of something; that part which Lao Zi talks about.

 

(Check that out I totally learned how to multi-quote haha!)

 

We know the attributes of Dao? This raises many questions! 1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits?

2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.?

 

 

Yeah. I picked up on that as well. But remember, Conway is a Christian so he (I am assuming he is a he. Hehehe.) view Taoist Philosophy from his own referrence point. Whether we be Christian or Taoist we can never "know" the total essence of either. Some people say that this is possible but I find it impossible to accept unless we actually conclude that we are in fact God or Tao. Personally, I do not have the powers and abilities necessary to be Tao or any kind of god.

 

But yes, Conway, at least for now, must keep God at the top of the ladder. He is a religious Christian and follower of (or at least attempting to be) the Taoist philosophy of life.

 

Thank you...for stating that more clearly than if I tried to myself. But I do feel like what you said is right on target: God is at the top of the ladder, even though, by His own will, that ladder is Dao (or made of Dao, created by Dao, came into being by Dao, etc.)

[Marblehead]

Darn. Nothing for me to respond to. (Just wanted to let you know that I read the post.)

[Conwaypk]

Darn. Nothing for me to respond to. (Just wanted to let you know that I read the post.)

 

What? No this! haha

 

We know the attributes of Dao? This raises many questions! 1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits?

2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.?

 

Actually I think maybe I'm just ont far enough into deeply studying the TTC. That's probably it. I have a feeling once I move on to more chapters...

 

I have to say studying this is quite fun. I'm glad I came upon this site.

[Marblehead]

What? No this! haha

 

We know the attributes of Dao? This raises many questions! 1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits?

2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed? 3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know? 4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.?

 

Actually I think maybe I'm just ont far enough into deeply studying the TTC. That's probably it. I have a feeling once I move on to more chapters...

 

I have to say studying this is quite fun. I'm glad I came upon this site.

 

Well, we (at least I) are glad you are here.

 

More questions!!! Yea!!!

 

No, I have no answers. Hehehe. I have some opinions though. (Of course, you already knew that.)

 

No, not traits, as in characteristic traits. I will never personify Tao.

 

However, if we look to nature, including the nature of man, we will see processes that exist regardless of conditions. These processes are among the attributes of Tao.

 

Absolutes, or universals, are difficult to find in the universe. That is, something that is consistently true regardless of the condition. This is because of the concept of change. Tao is dynamic - constantly changing. But there are underlying processes that remain constant.

 

However, long term, even the processes that we believe to be constant may be changing as well. It is just that the period of time required to observe the changes is so great the it appears that these changes are constants.

 

I think it is far better to say "I don't know." than to say "I know." but be delusional.

 

Now, when we speak of the manifest aspect of Tao we can speak with a bit more confidence. If we step off the roof of a ten story building we can state with confidence that we are going to fall until we encounter something that will stop our falling. This would likely happen every time regardless of who tries it.

 

We can study the universe and make some pretty well-established statements concerning its evolution. But can we state with full knowledge and confidence that we know how and why this universe got started? The best we can do is speculate. We cannot repeat the experiment.

[dawei]

This raises many questions!

1. What exactly do you mean by attributes? Characteristics, effects, almost like personality-traits?

Definitely not personality traits. But I think as you become more aware the more you'll see both physical and spiritual aspects which Lao Zi uses to describe Dao.

 

2. How many are there, is there a number to be placed?

Infinite, like a void which cannot contain Dao itself.

 

3. How do we know the attributes, or, how have we come to know?

I think there are both physical and spiritual apprehensions which probably offer many ways. One might be purely academic about it and/or just read and stick to the philosophical aspect (which is probably the most popular way but possibly the most limiting too); one might intuit and experience it from life itself; one might practice an art and pursue some of the spiritual aspects or be on a spiritual journey. They all offer something. I personally do the combination since I tend to be eclectic by nature. You will likewise find your own 'way'.

 

 

4. By "we" do you mean "you" or "we" in general as all those who studied Dao deeply enough for a long enough time, etc.?

Everyone is plugged into the Dao, so it is accessible, in a sense, but the methods may vary as I mentioned above. I'll leave you with one thought: The most important is to be open to the universe; think 'accept'; don't limit yourself.

Edited March 7, 2011 by dawei

[stan herman]

[i. They all offer something. I personally do the combination since I tend to be eclectic by nature. You will likewise find your own 'way'.

 

I'll leave you with one thought: The most important is to be open to the universe; think 'accept'; don't limit yourself.

 

Yes, the written Tao (like some Buddhist sutras) provides useful signposts. However, both are also crucially limited, for they are thoughts and words. A startling Buddhist epigram says, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". Perhaps there ought to be a Taoist one that says, "After reading the Tao, burn it."