[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Marblehead]

"Tao" is a name we have given to something that cannot be named. The name is for our purpose only so that we can talk about the nameless. Oh, sure, we can say "Great", or "All", or "Everything", or whatever.

 

How can it be possible to name something that existed before anything existed?

 

So we call it "Tao".

[lienshan]

So we call it "Tao".

So we use the name and the title Tao

 

That's how I read the opening lines of chapter One.

 

A name tells what the named is.

A title tells what the entitled does.

 

This relates to wu wei meaning not being and wu wei meaning not doing.

 

Which not relates to Tao of Teh but to Teh of Tao.

[Marblehead]

So we use the name and the title Tao

 

That's how I read the opening lines of chapter One.

 

A name tells what the named is.

A title tells what the entitled does.

 

This relates to wu wei meaning not being and wu wei meaning not doing.

 

Which not relates to Tao of Teh but to Teh of Tao.

 

Don't you go trying to get me confused now. Hehehe.

 

You know, we talk about Tao a lot but really in almost all cases we are actually talking about Te (the Way of Tao). But that's okay as long as we talk about it in order to better understand.

[lienshan]

What's named heaven earth has not a first.

What's named tenthousand things has a mother.

Don't you go trying to get me confused now. Hehehe.

The term "heaven earth" consist of two nouns and is thus without a first; they are equal.

The term "tenthousand things" consist of an adjective and a noun; a first and a mother.

 

The two lines are thus logically true.

 

The term Teh Tao has no first nor a mother.

The term Great Tao has a first and a mother.

 

To which category does the term wu wei belong?

[Marblehead]

To which category does the term wu wei belong?

 

I have no freakin' idea. Hehehe.

 

You can tell me but it probably won't matter.

[lienshan]

To which category does the term wu wei belong?

I have no freakin' idea. Hehehe.

 

You can tell me but it probably won't matter.

Let's try put it into the 5th line of chapter Qne:

 

Therefore observe her shadow, with that seeing her subtle eternal having the desired, which is an eternal non-desire.

 

Therefore observe her shadow, with that seeing her subtle eternal having the desired, which is an eternal non-being.

 

The line is preceeded by "gu" (therefore) not "shi yi" (therefore) marking desire as a noun

and in the same way the inserted "wu wei" as meaning "non-being". (shi yi would have produced "not doing").

The structure of the line is in chinese a sentence with two subordinate clauses:

 

Therefore (which is an eternal non-desire)(with that seeing her subtle eternal having the desired) observe her shadow.

 

Does a shadow have being? Well ... I can see it.

Does a shadow have doing? Well ... it darkens.

Does a shadow have desire? No.

Edited July 26, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

There are no desires in the shadow (the state of wu, Mystery). It is only in the being that there is desire. If we attain a harmoneous state somewhere between yo (Manifest) and wu (Mystery) our desires will naturally, on their own, be lessened.

 

(I just wanted to say that. I have no idea what it has to do with anything.)

[lienshan]

Therefore observe its shadow, with that seeing its subtle eternal having the desired, which is an eternal non-desire.

This pairing of the same origin and the same pronounciation of different names is the darkened darkness.

Additional darkness is the multitude of darkness school.

 

There are no desires in the shadow (the state of wu, Mystery). It is only in the being that there is desire. If we attain a harmoneous state somewhere between yo (Manifest) and wu (Mystery) our desires will naturally, on their own, be lessened.

I've choosen "darkness" instead of "mystery" in my translation of the last lines, because it matches better with my translation of character "jiao", which means "to inspect", "to follow", "to comply with", and something visibly following are our shadows.

 

Your "wu (Mystery)" is described in the second-last line

 

The negative "wu" (not) was fusioned with the verb "wu" (to not have) middle warring states time.

The negative "wu" was before the fusion pronounced like the noun "mu" (mother).

The negative "wu" is except two breastdots the same character as "mu" (mother).

 

I can't be less technical than that, but it's impossible to understand the line without that info.

Edited July 27, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

 

I can't be less technical than that, but it's impossible to understand the line without that info.

 

Okay. Is there anything else we can disagree about? Hehehe.

 

PS I like breastdots.

[ChiDragon]

Okay. Is there anything else we can disagree about? Hehehe.

 

PS I like breastdots.

Yes, there are plenty more to come.....

[Marblehead]

Yes, there are plenty more to come.....

 

Hehehe. I'll be here.

[lienshan]

Okay. Is there anything else we can disagree about? Hehehe.

Why not try spread some light on our 'Manifested' disagreement:

 

A shadow is the absence of light, which is zi ran (natural)

Darkness is the absence of light, which is zi ran (natural)

 

Mystery is 'something that cannot be, or has not been, explained' (according to Thesaurus) so:

 

Mystery is the absence of explanation, which isn't zi ran (natural)

[Marblehead]

Why not try spread some light on our 'Manifested' disagreement:

 

A shadow is the absence of light, which is zi ran (natural)

Darkness is the absence of light, which is zi ran (natural)

 

Mystery is 'something that cannot be, or has not been, explained' (according to Thesaurus) so:

 

Mystery is the absence of explanation, which isn't zi ran (natural)

 

Ah. But 'shadow' and 'darkness' are very different. Yes, 'darkness' is the absence of light. 'Shadow' however, only exists when there is light.

 

Therefore, there is first and foremost an object which light has shown upon before shadow can be realized.

 

That is to say, shadow, my Mystery, can be realized by the beholder only after enlightenment. Shadow, Mystery, is the natural progression from 'yo' to 'wu'. We realize the shadow of Dao.

 

Darkness however, is to remain in the many-thingness of 'yo'. We never see the shadow because there is no light.

 

Edit to add:

 

Oh! Yes, Mystery is beyond explanation because we are seeing only the shadow of what is beyond definition (Dao).

Edited July 27, 2011 by Marblehead

[lienshan]

Ah. But 'shadow' and 'darkness' are very different. Yes, 'darkness' is the absence of light. 'Shadow' however, only exists when there is light.

The sun is always shining, that'll say there's always light.

 

Isn't the darkness of the night, the shadow of mother earth, darkness?

Edited July 27, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

The sun is always shining, that'll say there's always light.

 

Isn't the darkness of the night, the shadow of mother earth, darkness?

 

Darkness is only an illusion. If we think we are in the darkness all we have to do is move and we will be in the light.

 

Yes, the sun is always shining therefore there is always the possibility of returning to the light.

 

(My thoughts here are much deeper than the words are expressing.)

 

BTW We can never run away from our own shadow, we can escape it only by living in darkness.

[on the path]

Hi all,

 

Here is Flowing Hands version.

 

The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless, is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

The named is the manifestations of the Ten Thousand Things.

Ever desireless, one can feel (heart) the mystery.

Ever desiring, one can see its manifestations.

These two are born from the same source, but differ in form;

one appears as imperceptible, infinity upon infinity.

Here lies the path of all mystery.

 

 

It really puts up a completely different emphasis. To me it is saying that if we try and describe, name and tell of the way we are really wasting our time, because it is constantly changing. But what we can describe is the physical things that then manifest from the Dao. He then speaks of the spiritual path of the Dao and of the heart, it being the essence of unlocking the mysteries of the Dao. "desire less" meaning that of shedding human desires etc leaving the heart open to understanding. "desire", meaning with normal desire one then only sees the physical manifestations. One spiritual the other material born from the same source. A clue to the great mystery.

[Marblehead]

 

It really puts up a completely different emphasis. To me it is saying that if we try and describe, name and tell of the way we are really wasting our time, because it is constantly changing. But what we can describe is the physical things that then manifest from the Dao. He then speaks of the spiritual path of the Dao and of the heart, it being the essence of unlocking the mysteries of the Dao. "desire less" meaning that of shedding human desires etc leaving the heart open to understanding. "desire", meaning with normal desire one then only sees the physical manifestations. One spiritual the other material born from the same source. A clue to the great mystery.

 

I think it has stayed with the concept just fine.

 

Yes, we can 'know' the Manifest but we can only intuit the Mystery.

 

Desires will always get in the way of attaining contentment as well as realization of the Mystery. (It's not really mystereous though if we open our heart and mind.)

[lienshan]

Here is Flowing Hands version.

 

The nameless, is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

Let's try put it into the formula of Laozi's first line (the Received version):

 

dao ke dao fei chang dao = nameless maybe nameless isn't eternal nameless

 

and into the formula of Laozi's first line (the Mawangdui version):

 

dao ke dao ye fei heng dao ye = it's nameless maybe nameless, it isn't eternal nameless

 

The nameless cannot both replace dao and maintain its namelessness

[ChiDragon]

The sun is always shining, that'll say there's always light.

 

Isn't the darkness of the night, the shadow of mother earth, darkness?

The "darkness of the night" is not the "shadow of mother earth". Rather, it is only the dark side of the world. You will never see the shadow of the mother earth even you are flowing in space. The shadow has to strike on a surface in order to see it. It you are in space, there is no surface for the shadow to strike on. At least, you don't see the shadow with your naked eyes anyway.

Edited July 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

To me it is saying that if we try and describe, name and tell of the way we are really wasting our time, because it is constantly changing. But what we can describe is the physical things that then manifest from the Dao.

I am not sure I agree.

 

If Dao as the eternal is meant, that is an unchanging eternal [principle].

 

If dao as the [dao'ed] manifest is meant, then that is an ever-changing [physical world].

[on the path]

Hi

 

I feel that what we have here is simply stated, accessible to most ordinary people and gives a clear and simple explanation of what is a very difficult concept to understand. There is no concept about God, but quite clearly stated that any life can become divine and the mystery is there in front of our very own eyes. All we are required is to abide by the very simple rules that the way has led us to through evolution. We cannot put a name to the Dao "I call it Dao for lack of a better word" but we know that it exists as it has created all that we can see and feel. So I feel that chapter one is simply stating that parallels between universal life force and the creation of matter. One can be seen the other can be 'felt'.

[lienshan]

You will never see the shadow of the mother earth even you are flowing in space.

The shadow has to strike on a surface in order to see it.

Have you never seen an eclipse

[ChiDragon]

Have you never seen an eclipse

 

Ah....

Yes, a shadow cast on a surface.

[lienshan]

We cannot put a name to the Dao "I call it Dao for lack of a better word"

The chinese character ming means both "name" and "title".

 

I prefer the title Dao to the name The nameless.

 

Chapter One is much about the difference between titles and names as I read it.

[lienshan]

In Classic text, there was no real grammar or sentence structure.

Grammar, like musical notes, never existed in that time.

One of the great things concerning the Mawangdui version is, that most of the original "ye" characters are maintained. These are omitted in the Received version due to the Han-modernization of the classical chinese. So the original characters of the chapter One opening line was:

 

dao ke dao ye fei heng dao ye ming ke ming ye fei heng ming ye

 

The ye function formula Laozi used was: X ye fei Y ye = it's X it isn't Y

 

it's dao ke dao it isn't heng dao it's ming ke ming it isn't heng ming

 

The next formula he used compares two dual noun phrases: B of A is like D of C

 

it isn't heng dao of it's dao ke dao

 

is like

 

it isn't heng ming of it's ming ke ming

 

The first ye formula identifies four noun phrases, while the ke (maybe) characters identifies:

 

1. that the following character is a verb

2. that ming means "a title" and not "a name"

 

it isn't heng a noun of it's a noun maybe a verb

 

is like

 

it isn't heng a name of it's a name maybe a title

 

heng means "eternal/forever" and dao means "a walk/to walk" so the result is:

 

it isn't an eternal walk of it's a walk maybe walking

 

is like

 

it isn't an eternal name of it's a name maybe a title

 

Especially the way of comparing two lines of two components is neglected by all translators leading to a lot of mysterious more or less nonsense sentenses, which make one of the greatest authors ever look like first year student. It took me only five hours to translate the Guodian Da Yi Sheng Shui script, while I spend at least five days translating one of his Guodian chapters. They are like paintings, where all the characters work together like colors. I haven't yet come across one single mistake. The Guodian chapters must by logic be first hand copies of his original manuscript. I simply do not believe, that there was a second person with the same writing skill and deep deep insight as he reveals in those chapters. None of the Received chapters have been improved by scholarly editting.