[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[rene]

But then, I would ask, is it necessary to understand "why"?

 

Yes, for me, with almost everything, "how" is the more important question.

 

Once I was asked why I rode my bike a certain distance. My reply was, "Because I can."

 

My point wasn't about understanding "why", rather that Dao may fall into a 'why' category moreso than a 'what' or 'how' or 'when' question.

 

And, it might be that an answer about the 'why' of Dao...is reflected in 'tzujan'. (-:

 

warm regards

Edited May 25, 2013 by rene

[rene]

 

But the movement in differentiation proceeds from large to small as diversity grows some legs it turns the wheel faster, in a sense. Differentiation proceeds slowly.

 

It might be that that really depends on the parameters of what is under consideration; i.e. the perspective taken - close focus or wide field; and also if what is under consideration is just the outward manifestations or if the unboundaried inner aspects are included in the idea.

 

 

 

Here is how I see it:

When the first phase change occurred from stillness to movement, time-space-energy occupied everywhere at once (One). That whole differentiated into parts of the universe (usually pictured as the formation of sky and earth--TWO). The earth differentiated into living things... etc.

 

 

Eventually a dollar bill can become 100 pennies. Usually that occurs over many stages of getting 'change' back. I could force the change to 100 pennies but if I let it just happen naturally within the mechanism of buying things, there is a sequence whereby it turns into quarters and dimes; later into nickels and pennies... it 'appears' as a sequence but its just differentiation and separation occurring into smaller parts [of the whole].

 

Nice example of form changing form (-: Just as always within each stage, the concept of 'money' or 'value' remains - so too in each Phase you described Dao remains and, imo, is what facilitates the unboundariedness between the form and its formless aspect.

 

Fun stuff to think about!

 

warm regards

[lienshan]

but I differ in that 'eternal' or 'eternity' never seems to be the usage of Heng in the most ancient texts.

It is much closer to the meaning of Ji as ultimate or fully expansive.

 

I buy your arguement and use the word infinity that is complementary with eternity (space-time):

 

It's a tao or to tao, it isn't the tao of the infinity.

It's a name or to name, it isn't the name of the infinity.

At the beginning of everything isn't a name!

The Mother of everything is a name!

Consequently:

The infinity isn't a desire, considering its singleness.

The infinity is a desire, considering her offsprings.

It's a pair of the same origin, different words with the same meaning.

They are the swing gates of the darkening darkness and the singleness of the multitude.

 

The reason why is, that a mother with her offsprings needs more space (not more time) than a single!

[blim]

Thanks for the translation! I have read it in Chinese only and never quite understand the text completely becoz ancient Chinese text is hard... Very helpful to try to read it in English!

[Aaron]

You guys do realize that simply by talking about Tao you're not talking about Tao. That's the paradox here, it's not something that can ever be understood on a conceptual or intellectual level, hence the reason why it's addressed in the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching, to warn us against trying, even though as human beings it's oftentimes our first impulse.

 

Aaron

[rene]

You guys do realize that simply by talking about Tao you're not talking about Tao. That's the paradox here, it's not something that can ever be understood on a conceptual or intellectual level, hence the reason why it's addressed in the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching, to warn us against trying, even though as human beings it's oftentimes our first impulse.

 

Aaron

 

And your point is?

[Stosh]

Sounds like DONT READ THIS! I JUST FELT LIKE WRITING SOMETHING. Lao

[rene]

[Aaron]

And your point is?

 

 

Just that it's sort of like Shroedinger's Cat, everyone is going to come up with an answer, but nothing can be proven. By all means keep the conversation alive, I'm just throwing my two cents in. I tried for years to conceptualize it and always came away without a clue and I believe the reason is simply that it's well beyond anything I can understand.

 

If I remember correctly one of my first conversations with David over coffee was about this very topic and he told me the same thing, being stubborn I still tried to find the answer. It wasn't until years later that I finally realized the futility of putting it into words. I honestly believe it's something that we can never fathom and that the tao that's talked about in the Tao Te Ching is the tao that can be talked about, which, if you finally come up with an answer, is the tao you're talking about now.

 

Aaron

Edited August 13, 2013 by Aaron

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

kind of like love, just understood in the heart, not verbalized... cant be.

[XiaoZi]

 

Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao.

Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.

 

 

 

I also thought through years about this first Zhang. And now I can only assume from my experience that when you will reach Tao - you will not be able to explain it to the others who haven't reached it yet. But there is no other way for the beginners than starting from the words,, cause we cannot avoid it (words). Something beyond the mind and thoughts - that is Tao. Also I've heard that on the West it's common to specificate Tao in denial way: it's smth not ...and etc.

 

Growing Student

[dawei]

I also thought through years about this first Zhang. And now I can only assume from my experience that when you will reach Tao - you will not be able to explain it to the others who haven't reached it yet. But there is no other way for the beginners than starting from the words,, cause we cannot avoid it (words). Something beyond the mind and thoughts - that is Tao. Also I've heard that on the West it's common to specificate Tao in denial way: it's smth not ...and etc.

 

Translation by negation is not a West thing; most chinese translators do the same thing by translating word for word:

 

Mawangdui Text: 道 可 道 非 恆 道

Wang Bi Text: 道 可 道 非 常 道

 

非 - negative / not / not to be / non / to refute

 

 

Several years ago while at a daoist temple in china I came upon the feeling that this was simply the action of Dao not just a description of Dao... and came up with:

 

Dao, once Dao'ed, is ever-changing.

 

Dao can be described as a static/singular rule/constant of arising; Dao as to its action can be described as to its outcome of multiplicity.

 

My usage is put commas as: 道, 可 道, 非 恆 道

 

I have seen an explanation as: 道可 , 道非 , 恆 道 - which is equally interesting to see a comparison of what Dao is vs is not.

 

Did you have some idea you came to which is not necessarily the norm but it made sense to you?

[Marblehead]

Dao, once Dao'ed, is ever-changing.

Worthy of repeating.

[XiaoZi]

Now reading Zhuang Zi and it is said there in the chapter 23

 

 

'Be like a newborn child.' A newborn child moves about without knowing why, and goes places without knowing where he's headed. His body seems like a branch on a withered tree and his mind seems like dead ashes. Being like that, there's no sense of misfortune overcoming him or waiting for good fortune to arrive. Without experiencing either misfortune or good fortune, what calamities could happen to him!"

Very good advice, but how to do it I don't know. I guess the secret of Tao is concealed in such practical advices to do smth step by step, I mean physical excercises - I mean not only to meditate but also to do some excercises. But where to find such men of knowledge....that is the question.

[Marblehead]

This speaks to something I have said a couple times here: We need to let our inner child out to play now and again.

 

Return to the life that was more care-free? Yeah, we are grownups now and we are expected to act like one. Well, sometimes we just have to say, "Screw that!". Set some time aside to live spontaneously.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Marblehead

[XiaoZi]

Yes, this understandable, but how to do it without knowledge? If to behave like child - children always wanted many things that Lao Zi for example wpuld say - they are dust for us, the wishes leades to a struggle. So this point - to let us be spontaneously - is not completed without smth else..?

[Marblehead]

Excellent respose and challenging questions.

 

First, in order to be fair, I must state that I am fully retired and I have enough. (Which means no mor haunting desires.)

 

Second, knowledge is useless unless it has brought one wisdom. No, I'm not talking about the wisdom of the Sage; just common sense.

 

The things a child wants (until (s)he learns to desire) are small things. I want to jump in that mud puddle. I want an ice cream cone. I want to swing on the swing for a while. It is only after learning to desire that we reach the point you mentioned. The wants of a desireless child are, in the most part, completely possible to attain. I want to lay out in the grass at night and count the stars.

 

Sure, even I have things around my home that need be done. Maintain the house in a respectable manner, tend to the gardens and ponds. These are the things life is asking of me. When the work is done, or I have done enough work for one day, it is time for me to ask, "What has life to offer me?" (I don't really ask that question, it is just preparing myself for spontaneous living.)

 

I'm not suggesting that we should be like the child our entire life. No, that wouldn't be true. But sometimes? Yes.

[Rara]

 

First, in order to be fair, I must state that I am fully retired and I have enough. (Which means no mor haunting desires.)

 

Second, knowledge is useless unless it has brought one wisdom. No, I'm not talking about the wisdom of the Sage; just common sense.

 

Here I come with my usual "I will attend some lectures" approach haha.

 

I find this statement really interesting...something that I have been thinking about recently. When I picked up TTC for the first time, it was over 3 years ago. My interpretation was all rebellion and detachment from the norm (I was 22 and I think this is probably normal for people coming out of university and not having a real clue about anything in the "real world")

 

Now as I get older, I notice myself becoming more wise and mature. I wonder whether TTC is partly responsible, or whether life would have made me this way anyway. I used to look at older people and think of a lot as limited. Only to then go out and chase my desires that I so mistook Taoism for, and now here I am saying "sorry folks, you were right. You have the life experience"

 

Have a lot of these older people read the TTC? Probably not. But some of their wisdom is highly noticeable.

 

So I advocate the first line in this chapter/book. I just don't know how much impact this book really does have on me, when the words do not do justice to simply "knowing".

 

It's that whole thing when someone tries to tell you about that funny thing in their.day, and you pretend to laugh but really you know you had to.be there to understand.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

無名天地之始

One cannot conceptualize where Heaven and Earth came from (as they did not come from a concept.)

"Without name: the origin of Heaven and Earth"

 

有名萬物之母。

There can, however, be a concept of where the myriad children of Heaven and Earth came from (: they came from the concept(s) of Heaven and Earth).

"Existing: the name of the mother of the myriad things"

 

Just wanted to point out, that my reading of these lines was essentially the same as illucidated in Heshan Gong's commentary:

 

有名，萬物之母。有名謂天地。天地有形位、有陰陽、有柔剛，是其有名也。萬物母者，天地含氣生萬物，長大成熟，如母之養子也。

“With name(/appearance), the myriad things are born”

“With (existing) name” refers to Heaven and Earth. Heaven and Earth are the seat of form. There exists yin and yang, there exists soft and firm, thus there exists Name. The ten thousand things have this as their mother, Heaven and Earth cherish chi and give birth to the ten thousand things. Lasting great completion is ripened, like a mother raises her son.

 

 

You can read my translation, with some discussion, of the Heshang Gong commentary in my Personal Practice Discussion, here.

 

Note that the discussion there is moderated by yours truly, and posts reflecting an abusive attitude may be deleted. However, constructive comments and criticisms are encouraged!

[ChiDragon]

恒無,欲以觀其妙.
Whenever Tao is invisible, grok its quale.

Whenever Tao is visible, observe its boundary.
恒有,欲以觀其徼.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

大道自然
萬物隨緣
The great Tao is Spontaneous
Let all things follow her path

Edited November 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I'm trying. I'm trying.

[110576_1494798793]

G’day everyone. This is my current understanding of the first parts of the first chapter of the Dao De Jing.

 

The Dao just is and always has been and always will be. It’s infinitely bigger and smaller than we can ever know or experience. It is beyond description by mere words. I equate it with whatever caused the Universe (or my limited concept and experience of the Universe) to come into being. I don’t consider the Dao to be a deity as I believe that ‘In the beginning, Man created gods’. Nor do I believe the Dao is supernatural as I consider it is wholly natural.

 

As for the naming, I see Laozi saying something like, “Because the Dao has always been, it has always ‘existed’. As it is the first thing to have existed and the only thing to have always existed, it has not required a name. A name is something you give to something else to describe and identify that something else. The Dao doesn’t need to identify itself, even if it is capable of needing to indentify anything. It is only after it had started the process of creation that it required a name, and it was not the Dao that required it be given a name, but the Dao’s creation that required the Dao be given a name, and it was the Dao’s creation that named the Dao. Because it was the Dao’s creation that named it and because what exists now will not eternally exist, any name that is given to the Dao can not eternally exist and any name given to the Dao is not the Dao’s name but only a name given to the Dao.”

 

Of course, all of the above is only my opinion and understanding. It’s great finding a site like this where so many other opinions and understandings can be found and mulled over.

[Marblehead]

Hi Zhe,

 

Well, I think you have a pretty good understanding of the chapter and its concepts.

 

True, Dao does not need a name. And I agree with you, only after the manifiestation of the Ten Thousand Things are there names required because we do, in real life, need to differentiate between the varoius things.

 

Nice having someone revive our discussions of the TTC. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Of course, all of the above is only my opinion and understanding. It’s great finding a site like this where so many other opinions and understandings can be found and mulled over.

 

You got that right! That was not your opinion but your best understanding. That is, also, the understanding of the most knowledgeable native scholars too. Welcome to TTB.

 

PS....

We would love to hear your understand of other chapters too!

Edited January 9, 2014 by ChiDragon