[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Brian]

 

My brother in Gainesville had an awesome pond. He invested lots of time and money in it before the great blue heron showed up.

 

He tried everything short of a shotgun (his girlfriend wouldn't let him) and abandoned it after about two years.

 

Amazing how much those damned birds can eat!

[Marblehead]

My brother in Gainesville had an awesome pond. He invested lots of time and money in it before the great blue heron showed up. He tried everything short of a shotgun (his girlfriend wouldn't let him) and abandoned it after about two years. Amazing how much those damned birds can eat!

I had two different invasions of Blue Heron. They are a protected species here in Florida so you cannot do harm to them.

 

My pond areas are totally covered so when they fly over they cannot see the bodies of water. Plus, the sides are almost totally enclosed and the open areas are not large enough for a heron to feel safe entering.

 

A person I know who lives close to the river had all of her fish taken one night by what she believed was a family of otter.

 

I think we have gone off topic. Hehehe.

 

Tao gave birth to One,

etc.

[dawei]

Wu means none; nothing; don't have; non-exist; nothingness. However, Lao Zi uses the character very differently. He wanted to call Tao "Wu" at the beginning of the heaven and earth (the universe). Wu, here, doesn't mean none; nothing; don't have; non-exist, nothingness but invisible with high potential creative power. Tao is always exist, Lao Tze wanted to distinguish Tao in two states of presence which are invisible and visible as indicated in Lines 3 and 4 of Chapter One.

 

The focus is simply Wu and You as names of states, not of Dao. Leave Dao out of it and then Wu and You will make more sense, as states relative to each other; not Dao relative to itself with two names.

 

Dao is not visible. Tao does not exist. It is not a thing. It exists only in our minds as an understanding of Wu and You.

[ChiDragon]

Not with Lao Zi...!!! That was not how he sees Tao.

Edited January 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Ah... so your Laozi's consigliere...

 

I would expect no less

[ChiDragon]

Lao Zi wrote the book, not me.

[Marblehead]

It's kinda' neat that I can agree with both of you but yet you both disagree with each other. Hehehe.

 

My opinion again: Wu and You are "within" Tao. Tao gave birth to One; One being the beginning of a new universal cycle. And why did Tao give birth to One? Because of Tzujan. Afterall, Tao follows Tzujan. Chi is in there too but I won't talk about it.

[flowing hands]

Forget the concepts, feel it in your heart, there lies a true understanding!

[Marblehead]

Forget the concepts, feel it in your heart, there lies a true understanding!

Nice to see you posting.

 

Yes, Chuang Tzu gave us that guidance too when he said that once we understand the concepts we can forget the words.

 

And as you stated, once we understand the concepts we just live.

 

But I still like talking about this stuff.

[ChiDragon]

Forget the concepts, feel it in your heart, there lies a true understanding!

Understand the contents in the TTC is understanding the concept. Where do you think the concept came from....?

[110576_1494798793]

Hi to Stosh, Brian and flowing hands.

 

I see the Dao as the producer and emitter of potentiality. I just looked up what ‘potentiality’ actually means and this is the definition from WordWeb –

 

The inherent capacity for coming into being.

 

Then I looked up ‘potential’, the adjectival form –

 

Existing in possibility.

 

The noun form of ‘potential’ means –

 

The inherent capacity for coming into being.

 

This, to me, is as simple and profound a definition I can give for the Dao. I don’t see the Dao as having any human emotions such as love or caring. I see it as something that is ‘out there’ doing what it does because it just does. I don’t even think it knows what it is doing or even that it is aware of its existence or even capable of knowing or awareness. I also don't think the Dao is a creative force that specifically created me or even knew I would one day exist or even care that I exist. I exist only because the potentiality that was each of my parents became my parents.

 

Hmmm... I could probably ramble on like this forever...

 

I think Laozi saw the Dao as a ‘something’. If we use Derek Lin’s translation of chapter one, Loazi says that “its wonders” and “its manifestations” emerge together. They have to emerge from something. Lin offers a description of “its wonders” and “its manifestations” as something like two sides of a coin. They are distinctively different but they lead to one another.

 

In my opinion, it is all but impossible to describe just what the Dao is in words. Sometimes when I am sitting beside the creek and just letting my mind wander while contemplating the Dao, I have flashes of inspiration but when I try to put those flashes into words in my mind, I quickly get frustrated because I can’t even describe my own thoughts to myself!

Edited January 12, 2014 by Guest

[flowing hands]

Hi to Stosh, Brian and flowing hands.

 

I see the Dao as the producer and emitter of potentiality. I just looked up what ‘potentiality’ actually means and this is the definition from WordWeb –

 

The inherent capacity for coming into being.

 

Then I looked up ‘potential’, the adjectival form –

 

Existing in possibility.

 

The noun form of ‘potential’ means –

 

The inherent capacity for coming into being.

 

This, to me, is as simple and profound a definition I can give for the Dao. I don’t see the Dao as having any human emotions such as love or caring. I see it as something that is ‘out there’ doing what it does because it just does. I don’t even think it knows what it is doing or even that it is aware of its existence or even capable of knowing or awareness. I also don't think the Dao is a creative force that specifically created me or even knew I would one day exist or even care that I exist. I exist only because the potentiality that was each of my parents became my parents.

 

Hmmm... I could probably ramble on like this forever...

 

I think Laozi saw the Dao as a ‘something’. If we use Derek Lin’s translation of chapter one, Loazi says that “its wonders” and “its manifestations” emerge together. They have to emerge from something. Lin offers a description of “its wonders” and “its manifestations” as something like two sides of a coin. They are distinctively different but they lead to one another.

 

In my opinion, it is all but impossible to describe just what the Dao is in words. Sometimes when I am sitting beside the creek and just letting my mind wander while contemplating the Dao, I have flashes of inspiration but when I try to put those flashes into words in my mind, I quickly get frustrated because I can’t even describe my own thoughts to myself!

 

Well its not just out there; as Li Erh describes, its within you and all around you. Every cell contains it, every interaction has it. It binds all things together whether it is matter or non matter. The list could go on endlessly.

 

Nice to see a new poster on my favorite Book!

[flowing hands]

Understand the contents in the TTC is understanding the concept. Where do you think the concept came from....?

 

Before there were words and concepts there was the Dao, rid yourself of concepts and words and find the Dao!

[dawei]

Yes it does seem the secret is to let go of Dao [as a external concept] and find Dao [within]... this kind of matrix we find ourselves in, is in us. I would go as far as to say it is us on some level and then we can understand that aspect of manifestation.

 

I think LZ knew that reading books would simply mislead people to focus on the finger instead of the moon.

Edited January 12, 2014 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Before there were words and concepts there was the Dao, rid yourself of concepts and words and find the Dao!

It's kind of late for me to do this primitive kind of work at the present moment.

 

If Lao Zi didn't create Tao with his words, then, there was no Tao.

Edited January 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

If Lao Zi didn't create Tao with his words, then, there was no Tao.

That's going to require a while to consider.

 

Maybe someone else will speak to it.

[dawei]

That's going to require a while to consider.

 

Maybe someone else will speak to it.

 

It only takes a while to stop laughing at it.

 

Hopefully you won't believe such silliness.

 

Dao is finite to Laozi's thought?

 

Dao was not only around prior to Laozi but was already mentioned in texts prior to Laozi.

 

If you stick to one text alone, the world appears to only exist in that crystal ball.

 

Laozi wrote with the benefit of tradition and that includes prior writers and thoughts.

[Marblehead]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found humor in the statement.

[ChiDragon]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found humor in the statement.

What do you know.......???

[Marblehead]

What do you know.......???

Enough so that I don't accept three dollar bills. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Enough so that I don't accept three dollar bills. Hehehe.

How about a neo-bill with pseudo-Tao on it.....???

[110576_1494798793]

 

Yes it does seem the secret is to let go of Dao [as a external concept] and find Dao [within]... this kind of matrix we find ourselves in, is in us. I would go as far as to say it is us on some level and then we can understand that aspect of manifestation.

 

I think LZ knew that reading books would simply mislead people to focus on the finger instead of the moon.

I agree. Chapter 48 says those that seek knowledge collect something every day and those that seek the Way let go of something every day.

I was attracted to the Dao De Jing because of its simple rules for living an uncomplicated life and the way Laozi described concepts I had never given any thought to, like you and wu. I have tried not to get bogged down in trying to understand exactly what the Dao is, just to try to follow it.

Sometimes when I have some quiet time (a luxury I occasionally find myself possessing thanks to following the Way as much as I can!) I like to think about what it is. I think, though, that it's important not to think I know what it is, or think I have some special knowledge of it that lets me think I know something that others don't. If that were to happen I would probably cease seeing the Dao De Jing as a great instruction book to leading a freer life and see it as something I can bamboozle others with by proclaiming my greater knowledge of it. I've read some articles written by self-professed experts of the Way, and frankly, they sound like fundamentalists. I prefer Laozi's description of it as an elusive indescribable mystery; that's just me at this point in time.

But no matter how mysterious and incomprehensible it might be for me, like Marblehead, I like talking about it!

[Stosh]

Understand the contents in the TTC is understanding the concept. Where do you think the concept came from....?

Could you flesh that out a bit CD , It could be very explanatory .

[ChiDragon]

Could you flesh that out a bit CD , It could be very explanatory .

Lao Zi had fleshed his concepts in some of his chapters. We can go flesh them out by going back and review those chapters.

 

 

PS....

Chapter 5 is a concept of impartiality. We have one of the outstanding members has a good grasp of it. Please read Post #237, page 15.

Impartiality

Edited January 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

Lao Zi had fleshed his concepts in some of his chapters. We can go flesh them out by going back and review those chapters.

 

 

PS....

Chapter 5 is a concept of impartiality. We have one of the outstanding members has a good grasp of it. Please read Post #237, page 15.

Impartiality

 

Sorry CD I don't agree! This member is a devout Christian and by accepting that teaching he is merely dabbling with ideas that he can find in other religions and philosophies to bolster up his own belief. When he is pushed, 'Jesus' is all encompassing, no impartiality there. The translation that you have used is not the right meaning, this chapter talks of deep metaphysical understandings about life, about looking at life an non life from a different perspective.

 

Remember the basis of Dao(ism) is fundamentally different to any other belief system. One cannot be a Christian as well as a Dao(ist), they are by their very nature completely different.