[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[ChiDragon]

following hands......

I didn't find any preconceived idea on his part. To the best of my understanding, that is how I view this member with his comprehension about the concept in Chapter 5. Btw Do we care where the idea came from as long it matches the concept of impartiality in Chapter 5.....??? We are dealing with Chapter 5 of the TTC, as far as I am concern, it is where the original idea about impartiality came from without any external influence. Indeed, this is also the impartiality on my part.


PS......
Besides, one who understands and follows the concept of impartiality shall not judge, belittle nor condemn someone with any preconceived ideas.

Edited January 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

following hands......

 

I didn't find any preconceived idea on his part. To the best of my understanding, that is how I view this member with his comprehension about the concept in Chapter 5. Btw Do we care where the idea came from as long it matches the concept of impartiality in Chapter 5.....??? We are dealing with Chapter 5 of the TTC, as far as I am concern, it is where the original idea about impartiality came from without any external influence. Indeed, this is also the impartiality on my part.

 

 

PS......

Besides, one who understands and follows the concept of impartiality shall not judge, belittle nor condemn someone with any preconceived ideas.

 

You miss my point he is NOT impartial! And Chapter five is not about this.

[ChiDragon]

You miss my point he is NOT impartial! And Chapter five is not about this.

Then what is it...??? Please give some your justification....!!!

Edited January 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Lao Zi had fleshed his concepts in some of his chapters. We can go flesh them out by going back and review those chapters.

 

 

PS....

Chapter 5 is a concept of impartiality. We have one of the outstanding members has a good grasp of it. Please read Post #237, page 15.

Impartiality

I believe you said this .in post 365 ." If Lao Zi didn't create Tao with his words, then, there was no Tao."

post 360 had said the following

"Understand the contents in the TTC is understanding the concept. Where do you think the concept came from....?"

my question was asking how you meant posts 360 and 365,, currently , since you have possibly come to some fresh conclusions...

 

So it could be read that you are saying the contents of The TTC are just fictitious ramblings,therefore the only explanations of the concepts lie entirely within the same seminal work. The redirect to the Impartiality post sheds no light on what I was asking.

[ChiDragon]

I believe you said this .in post 365 ." If Lao Zi didn't create Tao with his words, then, there was no Tao."

post 360 had said the following

"Understand the contents in the TTC is understanding the concept. Where do you think the concept came from....?"

my question was asking how you meant posts 360 and 365,, currently , since you have possibly come to some fresh conclusions...

 

So it could be read that you are saying the contents of The TTC are just fictitious ramblings,therefore the only explanations of the concepts lie entirely within the same seminal work. The redirect to the Impartiality post sheds no light on what I was asking.

It takes a lot more reading into the TTC besides just glancing at few chapters to reach a conclusion. All the Chapters must be considered in the TTC as a whole. I believe we had a thorough discussion in each chapter when we do the translations. It is very difficult to go into it; when people had made up their minds to attack everything that was mentioned in the discussion without really having any basis. Especially, there is one particular individual who has been happily haunting all my posts as a good example.

 

 

PS....

Even though you have not learn the lesson from Chapter 5 of the TTC; but you have been very impartial, all the time, even in this thread. I do appreciate your fairness.

 

You are a gentleman and a scholar....

Edited January 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

It takes a lot more reading into the TTC besides just glancing at few chapters to reach a conclusion. All the Chapters must be considered in the TTC as a whole. I believe we had a thorough discussion in each chapter when we do the translations. It is very difficult to go into it; when people had made up their minds to attack everything that was mentioned in the discussion without really having any basis. Especially, there is one particular individual who has been happily haunting all my posts as a good example.PS....Even though you have not learn the lesson from Chapter 5 of the TTC; but you have been very impartial, all the time, even in this thread. I do appreciate your fairness.You are a gentleman and a scholar....

Oh, well yes its hard to lay out the rationale and framework of an overall perspective in this type setting. On impartiality..IMO no one is ever reflexively impartial , the catch is recognizing the difference between what one feels to be fact and the stuff thats objectively fact. I know my own framework considers Lz to have taken a biased perspective with the intent of supplying the inverse rationale to the normative view he considered to be SOP or SNAFU... and so could be just as easily described as unbiased.

But, as I see it ,,it just doesnt matter to me as reader. He either is describing a truth independent of his personal biases as a man (or of compiled authors) ...which would make his opinions somewhat moot..Or he was describing a fairy tale to justify them..which would also render his views moot. Fpr Scholarly types like Flowinghands yourself Dawei Lienshan etc. The esoteric aspects may be the most motivating or provoking. But to me , Im grateful for that finger pointing at the moon, but , that being done,,Im thinking the responsibility of actually examining it falls back on us more importantly than examining the finger for its graces or flaws.

Thanks for your patience.

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for your patience.

 

You welcome...!!!

 

I may be running out of patience very soon. I think I had done enough damages here. It is time to take a flight to be a free wanderer as suggested by Zhuang Zi. I will spend more time for the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM) and let the West take its course. It was my pleasure for the adventurous journey well spent with the TTB.

Edited January 15, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Theres a time it seems we all arrive at ,

when we note all the sweet juicy fruits we've dropped to rot about our feet ,

and decide we've wasted our energies far too long.

So high time felt , to close up shop, we furl our leaves to quietly rest, having played our part well.

But the sun's warm strength which was only passing through ,

now dapples the floor suggesting spring.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Stosh

[flowing hands]

Then what is it...??? Please give some your justification....!!!

 

Now it is a shame that you choose to interpret texts that clearly to someone like me who is taught by the person concerned, is entirely wrong on many counts. Li Erh has been my teacher for nearly thirty years and he taught me his true understanding of the Dao which if you care to, you can download this for free from my site.

 

Why did he do this? Quite simple really, because there are so many differing 'interpretations'; his original work was copied so many times and unfortunately scribes would very often add and subtract things from the original. After this, the process would carry on in the same vein. So what do you get???

 

Now you could quite sincerely say "I don't believe you Flowing Hands" and I would say, I also understand this. But if you know anything about ancient Chinese practices, Shamanism is a well known and was widely practiced in China for thousands of years.

 

Li Erh was only giving his own take on well known ideas that existed for many thousands of years before he wrote the DDJ. Most things were transmitted orally and very rarely were they committed to any form of picture.

 

Li Erh teaches us to be 'open hearted and open minded', being this one can see where things are roughly coming from, I would suggest to you to follow this course and to take heed of these words and continue to add your point of view to the discussion whether one is right or wrong. Only great learning can be achieved from making mistakes and not getting the point of things, one should never fear making a mistakes. We all don't know each other, but we are sharing around the world in discussion of a piece of work that is beyond the ordinary. That is a great thing and our view points may be different but that is what makes it good. So I encourage you to keep going

[Rara]

 

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

Now, I'm pretty sure I've seen an even more blunt translation. Something along the lines of -

 

Tao that's spoken, not Tao

 

Do you know of this...?

[dust]

Now, I'm pretty sure I've seen an even more blunt translation. Something along the lines of -

 

Tao that's spoken, not Tao

 

Do you know of this...?

Probably not the one you're thinking of, but the Addiss version has "Tao called Tao is not Tao. Names can name no lasting name"

 

I like the simplicity/directness of it...

 

One thing about Chinese, compared to English, is the lack of Capitalization. I've been thinking about the idea that the 恆 or 常 that people translate as 'eternal' is really just the author's way of saying "the Way with a capital W". And many translations translate 道 as "Dao", which is not a word in English -- in the original Chinese, 道 is a word that has a number of other meanings. The closest word in English is "way" -- so why not translate it as such?

 

What I mean is:

 

A way that can be walked is not the Way

A name that can be named is not the Name

[dawei]

Probably not the one you're thinking of, but the Addiss version has "Tao called Tao is not Tao. Names can name no lasting name"

 

I like the simplicity/directness of it...

 

One thing about Chinese, compared to English, is the lack of Capitalization. I've been thinking about the idea that the 恆 or 常 that people translate as 'eternal' is really just the author's way of saying "the Way with a capital W". And many translations translate 道 as "Dao", which is not a word in English -- in the original Chinese, 道 is a word that has a number of other meanings. The closest word in English is "way" -- so why not translate it as such?

 

What I mean is:

 

A way that can be walked is not the Way

A name that can be named is not the Name

 

Not sure if you'll like these threads:

 

Heng (恒/恆) - Original Use in Ancient Times

 

Chang (常) – Original Use in Ancient Times

[ChiDragon]

Probably not the one you're thinking of, but the Addiss version has "Tao called Tao is not Tao. Names can name no lasting name"

 

I like the simplicity/directness of it...

 

One thing about Chinese, compared to English, is the lack of Capitalization. I've been thinking about the idea that the 恆 or 常 that people translate as 'eternal' is really just the author's way of saying "the Way with a capital W". And many translations translate 道 as "Dao", which is not a word in English -- in the original Chinese, 道 is a word that has a number of other meanings. The closest word in English is "way" -- so why not translate it as such?

 

What I mean is:

 

A way that can be walked is not the Way

 

If you have gone through all the chapters, then, you'll know this is a way but not the only way. There is one chapter that 道 was meant to be the "way" to walk on.

 

恆 or 常 was changed and meant to have same meaning as "eternal" because it was the name of the ruler. Don't you think that 道 is eternal.....???

Edited August 29, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Not sure if you'll like these threads:

 

Heng (恒/恆) - Original Use in Ancient Times

 

Chang (常) – Original Use in Ancient Times

 

 

恆 or 常 was changed and meant to have same meaning as "eternal" because it was the name of the ruler. Don't you think that 道 is eternal.....???

 

Insofar as anything is eternal, then 道 is surely eternal, of course! However...

 

It was just a thought, but my point was that in English, we could denote the 'eternal way' by simply calling it "the Way".

 

dawei, it's late and I'll read them in more detail tomorrow, but those topics are excellent. I certainly don't not like them.

Actually, doesn't your topic on 恒 in a way help to confirm that a word like 'eternal' can't truly satisfy the full meaning of 恒? It's the full, eternal, the ultimate and highest, which in my mind could be said simply by calling it the Way. Like a god as opposed to God -- we don't call him the eternal God, because eternal, ultimate, and highest are all implied with the capital G...?

[dawei]

It was just a thought, but my point was that in English, we could denote the 'eternal way' by simply calling it "the Way".

 

As many have pointed out, Dao is not an easy translation and then Heng Dao is adding what?

 

The ancient chu script of this text, as does modern chinese, relies on an original pictograph... maybe less and less.

 

For English?

 

That's why we're here talking

 

dawei, it's late and I'll read them in more detail tomorrow, but those topics are excellent. I certainly don't not like them.

Actually, doesn't your topic on 恒 in a way help to confirm that a word like 'eternal' can't truly satisfy the full meaning of 恒?

 

Yes... but that is part-and-parcel for ancient chinese anyways, yes?

 

It's the full, eternal, the ultimate and highest, which in my mind could be said simply by calling it the Way. Like a god as opposed to God -- we don't call him the eternal God, because eternal, ultimate, and highest are all implied with the capital G...?

 

As long as we keep it to the formless intangible and not something transcendent then we are closer and closer...

[dust]

Yes... but that is part-and-parcel for ancient chinese anyways, yes?

 

 

As long as we keep it to the formless intangible and not something transcendent then we are closer and closer...

 

Yes. I suppose that my own preference is to keep things as simple as possible, finding words and phrasings that are interpretable in as many ways as possible.

 

Thanks for your help, by the way. I'm learning a lot from these translation topics!

[Marblehead]

Yes. I suppose that my own preference is to keep things as simple as possible, finding words and phrasings that are interpretable in as many ways as possible.

 

Thanks for your help, by the way. I'm learning a lot from these translation topics!

And Y'all please continue to discuss how to translate the Chinese into English because these discussions do help a few of our members.

 

I can't say much during these discussions but once you post a translation I will offer my logic, understandings and opinions. And I do it with no evil intent but rather with the hope of gaining a better understanding and perhaps help others to gain a better understanding of the TTC and life in general.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

道可道也，非恆道也 The walkable way is not the Way,

名可名也，非恆名也 The nameable name is not the Name;

無名天地之始也 The beginning of heaven and earth is nameless,

有名萬物之母也 The mother of all things is named.

故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 So, free of desire, perceive the Unperceivable,

恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 Full of desire, perceive the manifest;

兩者同出 The two are of one,

異名同謂 Differently named, though called the same,

玄之又玄 Obscure beyond the obscure,

眾眇之門 The door to the unperceived

 

 

 

From the first MWD text (because it has 有欲 instead of 又欲)

 

2 things I'm especially unsure about:

 

眇 in the received text is 妙, something which was giving me trouble. I love the character (女 + 少 = young woman) but it wasn't obvious to me whether it meant subtle, mysterious, wonderful, or what. Young women are all these things, of course, as is Dao, but I want one word.

I had it as "mystery". This other miao seems to clear it up a bit for me: 目 + 少 = difficult to see/perceive. According to one source, both insignificant and boundless. The Invisible, the Unperceivable?

 

噭 in the received texts is 徼, also giving me trouble. Most have it as "manifestations", though I thought maybe "the edge" (i.e. "free of desire, see the mystery; full of desire see only its edge").

噭 seems to mean "shout/call" (or possibly the orifice of an animal ), so...I'm not sure at all. But I've chosen "manifest" as something tangible, as opposed to "unperceivable"

 

......so....there ya go.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Maybe 徼surface and the 眇subtle and mysterious depths. The character for Miao appears to refer to the subtle and mysterious qualities femininity.

[ChiDragon]

道可道也，非恆道也 The walkable way is not the Way,

名可名也，非恆名也 The nameable name is not the Name;

無名天地之始也 The beginning of heaven and earth is nameless,

有名萬物之母也 The mother of all things is named.

故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 So, free of desire, perceive the Unperceivable,

恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 Full of desire, perceive the manifest;

兩者同出 The two are of one,

異名同謂 Differently named, though called the same,

玄之又玄 Obscure beyond the obscure,

眾眇之門 The door to the unperceived

 

 

 

From the first MWD text (because it has 有欲 instead of 又欲)

 

2 things I'm especially unsure about:

 

眇 in the received text is 妙, something which was giving me trouble. I love the character (女 + 少 = young woman) but it wasn't obvious to me whether it meant subtle, mysterious, wonderful, or what. Young women are all these things, of course, as is Dao, but I want one word.

I had it as "mystery". This other miao seems to clear it up a bit for me: 目 + 少 = difficult to see/perceive. According to one source, both insignificant and boundless. The Invisible, the Unperceivable?

 

噭 in the received texts is 徼, also giving me trouble. Most have it as "manifestations", though I thought maybe "the edge" (i.e. "free of desire, see the mystery; full of desire see only its edge").

噭 seems to mean "shout/call" (or possibly the orifice of an animal ), so...I'm not sure at all. But I've chosen "manifest" as something tangible, as opposed to "unperceivable"

 

......so....there ya go.

 

At the time, the Tao Te Ching was passed on by word of mouth. These two characters 噭 and 眇 are only phonetics in the codex. If you have a copy of the received text, then you should use it as good reference. The received text has been finalized by the native knowledgeable scholars with the most logical and up to date characters.

 

Perhaps you would like to see post #320, 329 and 336.

故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 So, free of desire, perceive the Unperceivable,

恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 Full of desire, perceive the manifest;

 

Please compare the common translations with my translation below. The punctuations are proper placed in the phrases to reflect the true meaning of the TTC.

5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Edited August 31, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

the true meaning of the TTC.

 

Are you saying that your interpretation is the only "true meaning“?

 

As far as I can see, different sources have different punctuation. How do you know that the source/version you've chosen is the "true" version?

 

 

《老子甲道經》 from ctext.org

道可道也，非恆道也。名可名也，非恆名也。無名萬物之始也；有名萬物之母也。故恆無欲也，以觀其眇；恆有欲也，以觀其所噭。兩者同出，異名同胃，玄之有玄，眾眇之門

 

and from daodejing.org

道可道也，非恆道也。名可名也，非恆名也。無名，萬物之始也；有名，萬物之母也。故恆無欲也，以觀其眇；恒有欲也，以觀其所徼。兩者同出，異名同謂。玄之又玄，眾眇之門

 

And a received version from china.com.cn

道可道，非常道。名可名，非常名。无名天地之始。有名万物之母。故常无欲以观其妙。常有欲以观其徼。此两者同出而异名，同谓之玄。玄之又玄，众妙之门

 

 

There are a few punctuational differences between the 3. The daodejing.org text, using the MWD, uses the same punctuation as you, whilst ctext.org does not. The simplified Chinese on china.com.cn uses 妙, as you've suggested, but the punctuation differs from yours entirely.

[ChiDragon]

Are you saying that your interpretation is the only "true meaning“?

 

As far as I can see, different sources have different punctuation. How do you know that the source/version you've chosen is the "true" version?

 

All the other versions are copy cats. Please spend some time to follow the logic of the received version(my translation). Let's see if you can detect the uniqueness of it.

 

Again, perhaps you would like to see post #320, 329 and 336.

[Marblehead]

Let's try to keep the peace here, Okay?

 

And remember, in the final analysis, I am always right; but I do reserve the right to be wrong.

[ChiDragon]

There is always peace here. I was only asking someone to just pay a little more attention to something else. Perhaps one might find it more fruitful instead of spinning the same old wheel and still ended up at the same old spot.


Peace with Taoist honor....!!!

Edited August 31, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Are you saying that your interpretation is the only "true meaning“?

 

As far as I can see, different sources have different punctuation. How do you know that the source/version you've chosen is the "true" version?

 

We've been hearing this proclamation of the one and only true meaning for three years... His comma's and nobody else.

 

As you probably know, there are not commas in the original...

 

You should just carry on with your ideas.

 

You and Taoist Text have revived some NEW discussion which is good to see.