[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[dust]

OK... good. Very good, actually.

 

Questions though..

 

If we accept ch 1 as an original chapter, how do we know it came after Xunzi's writing?

 

Then: to translate in your terms, it would be translated much the same way as many already have, but with a different emphasis on interpretation, right?

 

Then: how does this fit with the rest of the chapter about 玄 and 妙 ?

[Taoist Texts]

If we accept ch 1 as an original chapter, how do we know it came after Xunzi's writing?

 

>> We don’t indeed, but the beauty of checking TTC against Confucianism is that we know that the latter is not the derivative of the former. They both are coeval, cogenerated, separate and conflicting political sciences using the same nomenclature and having the same objective. Thus we can use the elaborate Confucian works to decipher what the terse TTC means. Also, I share your and some sinologists suspicion, that like in ZZ the polemic is a latter addition.

 

Then: to translate in your terms, it would be translated much the same way as many already have, but with a different emphasis on interpretation, right?

 

>>Same way, in a sense, yes. The words are the same, its just previously they were not meaning anything. So what is different, is that now we know, because we put them back into the frame of reference.

 

Then: how does this fit with the rest of the chapter about 玄 and 妙 ?

 

>> It will fit; otherwise we will have to acquit;) I have a general idea how, but need some more keyboard grease. Stay tuned for the further announcements.

[Taoist Texts]

The 3^rd sentence concludes the polemics against ‘correcting the names’ with a definitive argument against such a shallow approach:

 

無名天地之始；有名萬物之母。

 

Correcting names is ineffectual because ‘the Heaven and Earth take beginning in the nameless’, as explained in ZZ

 

天地:

泰初有無，無有無名，一之所起，有一而未形。物得以生，謂之德；未形者有分，且然無間，謂之命；留動而生物，物成生理，謂之形；形體保神，各有儀則，謂之性。性修反德，德至同於初。同乃虛，虛乃大。合喙鳴，喙鳴合，與天地為合。其合緡緡，若愚若昏，是謂玄德，同乎大順。

Heaven and Earth:

In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named 《天地 - Heaven and Earth》

 

That nameless beginning is the mother of all named things 有名萬物之母. Meaning that the Confucian approach will be just rearranging the chairs, without affecting the Titanic.

Ha! Correct that silly Confucians!

[dust]

Are we sure that the grammar allows for this meaning?

 

 

無名天地之始 nameless, Heaven and Earth's beginning // nameless, Heaven and Earth in the beginning

有名萬物之母 named, the mother of all things // to have a name, the mother of all things *

 

* giving things names separates them, making them "exist“ as we perceive them

[Michael Sternbach]

To sum it up the first line is most emphatically not mystical jibber-jabber, it’s a precise salvo in the political debate of Confucians vs Huang-Lao. The latter lost. So much for ‘Tao that can't be spoken’.

 

A text like the TTC has meaning on many levels. That a certain interpretation is right, doesn't imply that another interpretation ought to be wrong. So I believe that the ambiguity is intended.

 

Lao Tzu's mind (like the mind of other great philosophers and poets) was tuned into higher realization which is always "non-linear" (as the Tao itself).

 

Pardon my mystical jibber-jabber.

[Marblehead]

Curious thing about naming things is that once we have named something we have created an unchanging reality. However, Tao is dynamic and ever-changing. Therefore our name was valid for one instant only, as soon as there was change the name is no longer valid.

 

Interesting too the political considerations of the chapter. A view I have never taken before. Red Pine looked at it from a sexual perspective where the Tao that cannot be spoken is the maiden whereas the Tao that can be spoken is the mother.

[Taoist Texts]

Are we sure that the grammar allows for this meaning?

 

 

 

無名天地之始 nameless, Heaven and Earth's beginning // nameless, Heaven and Earth in the beginning

有名萬物之母 named, the mother of all things // to have a name, the mother of all things *

 

* giving things names separates them, making them "exist“ as we perceive them

i read the last zhe 之as 'that' referring to the subject of previous sentence, 'the beginning'; so yes IMHO. However I am also certain IMHO that when the TTC was written down its nuanced meaning was forgotten so the grammar waivers reflecting the doubts of the scribes.

[Taoist Texts]

A text like the TTC has meaning on many levels. That a certain interpretation is right, doesn't imply that another interpretation ought to be wrong.

sure because the interpretations are not fungible, everyone is entitled to his own.

[dawei]

Curious thing about naming things is that once we have named something we have created an unchanging reality. However, Tao is dynamic and ever-changing. Therefore our name was valid for one instant only, as soon as there was change the name is no longer valid.

 

Several years ago, on a chinese mountain known to daoist of old... there I was walking along the foot paths... and walking in and out of monasteries for a day... I walked away with this:

 

道可道，非常道

Dao, once Dao'ed (put in motion the ten thousand things) is ever changing.

 

I turned the negative 'fei' into a positive explanation; ever changing (not static).

 

Later I called this: Singularity (Dao) and Multiplicity (Manifest).

 

Dao is eternal in essence; ever changing in function.

 

Later I discovered these works which seemed related:

http://worldreligionsjourney.com/taoism/

 

In these works is something almost sacrilegious: That there is no cyclic nature between opposites in Dao because in Dao there is no cause-effect; no willful determinism; no opposites. If something is cyclic then it is determinism of a system.

 

Just a new thought to interject...

[Taoist Texts]

Now, lets turn to 4^th one， 故常無欲，以觀其妙；常有欲，以觀其徼。which has having desires 無欲 as its key unknown. Turns out that it means ‘to be greedy’ (for the king that means excessive taxes domestically and aggressing outside) in Confu-talk, while being without desires is one of the main Confucian virtues:

 

子路: 子夏為莒父宰，問政。子曰：「無欲速，無見小利。欲速，則不達；見小利，則大事不成。」

Zi Lu: Zi Xia, being governor of Ju Fu, asked about government. The Master said, "Do not be desirous to have things done quickly; do not look at small advantages. Desire to have things done quickly prevents their being done thoroughly. Looking at small advantages prevents great affairs from being accomplished." 《子路 - Zi Lu》

 

Note that this cliché is paired with looking 見, just as in TTC 觀 .

 

有欲無欲，異類也，生死也，非治亂也。

Having desires and not having desires makes difference between life and death, between governing by non-action and the chaos.《正名》

 

Also

 

無欲有欲，各得以足，而君道得矣。

Having desires and not having desires, each as appropriate, makes the Dao of the king obtained. 《春秋繁露 - Chun Qiu Fan Lu》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)]

 

故人之欲多者，其可得用亦多；人之欲少者，其得用亦少；無欲者，不可得用也。

When people’s desires are numerous then the usefulness of people is also numerous; when people’s desires are few, then their usefulness is also few; if people have no desires then they are useless. 《為欲》

 

So here LZ leaves the polemics of the names behind and proceeds to attack the Confucians (ruists) on the other front – desires. While the ruists stoically maintained that desires are bad; here LZ points out that the desire has its place as needed, in order to balance the no-desire. Further, LZ states that both of those should be constant (predictable and traditional) 常無欲… 常有欲… so as to accord with the more general principle of wu-wei. Next question would be: how to know when to toggle between these two modes of governing? By observing the omens and signals from Heaven:

 

常有欲，以觀其徼

To know when to ‘have desires’ observe 徼 which is a contraction of 徼幸 (obvious good luck, benevolent omens)

常無欲，以觀其妙

To know when to ‘have no desires’ observe 妙 which is a contraction of 微妙 (spiritual extra-sensory signals from Heaven, which should be observed when small見小也).

 

Finally, to understand the last line

 

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

 

we compare it with

 

(1)天之常道，相反之物也，不得兩起，故謂之一 。(Chun Qiu Fan Lu)

The Heavenly constant Dao …can not consist of 2 components that’s why it is called the One.

 

And with

 

(2) 同於初.同乃虛，虛乃大。《天地 - Heaven and Earth》

Togetherness in the beginning is empty, empty is great.

 

Therefore, with the same terminology but in polemic with these 2 examples:

 

此兩者，both of those (governing with and without desires)

同出而異名，come from the same Heavenly togetherness albeit with different names

同謂之玄。That togetherness is Heaven

玄之又玄，衆妙之門。 But Heaven (is not empty but) but is a pregnant 又/有 Heaven, for Heaven is the gate of all miracles.

 

Meaning that this line serves as a supporting argument for the need to have desires. The desires are good and needed because A. they implemented on Heaven’s command B. the Heaven itself is not empty because it does produce miracles C. being not empty it must contain both an impulse to king’ desires and an impulse to king’s non-desires.

 

This argument is made in refutation of cosmo-ethical examples (1) and (2).

[ChiDragon]

Curious thing about naming things is that once we have named something we have created an unchanging reality. However, Tao is dynamic and ever-changing. Therefore our name was valid for one instant only, as soon as there was change the name is no longer valid.

 

Yeah, that's why Laozi was reluctantly called the "which might call it" Tao. It is because a name can be named is not an eternal name. Since Tao is eternal, therefore, Tao cannot be given a name. Even a name was given to Tao, but one still have to keep in mind that Tao is eternal. The reason that a name has been given to Tao was, only, for the convenience of communication.

[Marblehead]

Meaning that this line serves as a supporting argument for the need to have desires. The desires are good and needed because A. they implemented on Heaven’s command B. the Heaven itself is not empty because it does produce miracles C. being not empty it must contain both an impulse to king’ desires and an impulse to king’s non-desires.

I have mentioned many times that I feel we should lessen (not eliminate) our desires. True, Heaven has no desires. I'm not Heaven.

[ChiDragon]

常有欲，以觀其徼

To know when to ‘have desires’ observe 徼 which is a contraction of 徼幸 (obvious good luck, benevolent omens)

常無欲，以觀其妙

To know when to ‘have no desires’ observe 妙 which is a contraction of 微妙 (spiritual extra-sensory signals from Heaven, which should be observed when small見小也).

 

Finally, to understand the last line

 

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

 

......

 

此兩者，both of those (governing with and without desires)

同出而異名，come from the same Heavenly togetherness albeit with different names

 

 

The last two lines had mentioned two names. I don't think these two names was referred to as "both of those (governing with and without desires)". It is because "常有欲(always with desire) and 常無欲(always without desire)" are not names. Btw the two names are there if one had done the punctuations properly before doing the translation.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

And even the desire to have no desires is a desire.

[Taoist Texts]

if one had done

if and done in one sentence kinda clash.

[Taoist Texts]

I'm not Heaven.

[Marblehead]

I used to. Now I do only what I am inspired to do (plus the few things I must do).

[dust]

常有欲，以觀其徼

To know when to ‘have desires’ observe 徼 which is a contraction of 徼幸 (obvious good luck, benevolent omens)

常無欲，以觀其妙

To know when to ‘have no desires’ observe 妙 which is a contraction of 微妙 (spiritual extra-sensory signals from Heaven, which should be observed when small見小也).

 

I was kind of with you, up until this point.

 

故 would mean that we're following on from what what said before...but it doesn't really follow on

 

恒有欲 as "to know when to desire" doesn't make much sense to me

 

徼幸 I can see, but 微妙 as "spiritual extra-sensory signals from heaven" ??

 

http://www.zdic.net/c/e/14c/328304.htm

指精微深奥的道理 -- referring to subtle but profound truth

 

 

 

Finally, to understand the last line

 

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

 

we compare it with

 

(1)天之常道，相反之物也，不得兩起，故謂之一 。(Chun Qiu Fan Lu)

The Heavenly constant Dao …can not consist of 2 components that’s why it is called the One.

 

And with

 

(2) 同於初.同乃虛，虛乃大。《天地 - Heaven and Earth》

Togetherness in the beginning is empty, empty is great.

 

此兩者，both of those (governing with and without desires)

 

此 referring to governing now?

 

 

同出而異名，come from the same Heavenly togetherness albeit with different names

同謂之玄。That togetherness is Heaven

玄之又玄，衆妙之門。 But Heaven (is not empty but) but is a pregnant 又/有 Heaven, for Heaven is the gate of all miracles.

 

Meaning that this line serves as a supporting argument for the need to have desires. The desires are good and needed because A. they implemented on Heaven’s command B. the Heaven itself is not empty because it does produce miracles C. being not empty it must contain both an impulse to king’ desires and an impulse to king’s non-desires.

 

 

All of this is undermined by a number of other chapters which definitely tell us that desires aren't very good...

 

And the last line is just as much 'gibberish' as the usual translations!

 

 

 

I'd like to see it put together into one full translation and see how it reads then.. my feeling is that it will be fairly disjointed and need a lot of brackets explaining things

[Taoist Texts]

but 微妙 as "spiritual extra-sensory signals from heaven" ??

 

 

大道無為，無為即無有，無有者不居也，不居者即處無形，無形者不動，不動者無言也，無言者即靜而無聲無形，無聲無形者，視之不見，聽之不聞，是謂微妙，是謂至神，「綿綿若存」，「是謂天地根。

 

《精誠》

 

Lao-zi said: the great Dao does not act, it not acting means it is immaterial, immateriality means no location, no location – no shape, no shape - no movement, no movement – no words, no words means Dao is silent, mute, shapeless; what is mute and shapeless, can not be seen by sight can not be heard by hearing. As such it is defined as ‘the subtle wonder’, ‘the utter spirit’, ‘continuously guarded’, ‘the root of Heaven and Earth’.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

此 referring to governing now?

The whole TTC does;) but in this particular case 此兩 'these two' refer to the 2 subjects of the prior sentence which are ' with and without desires'

 

 

All of this is undermined by a number of other chapters which definitely tell us that desires aren't very good...

 

may be dont;)

 

And the last line is just as much 'gibberish' as the usual translations!

 

damn i was shooting for more

 

I'd like to see it put together into one full translation and see how it reads then.. my feeling is that it will be fairly disjointed and need a lot of brackets explaining things

hmm..lets see...a completely alien culture, a cryptic text, 2500 years past, in a language most foreign ...probably a couple of brackets could be helpful;)

[dust]

 

大道無為，無為即無有，無有者不居也，不居者即處無形，無形者不動，不動者無言也，無言者即靜而無聲無形，無聲無形者，視之不見，聽之不聞，是謂微妙，是謂至神，「綿綿若存」，「是謂天地根。

 

《精誠》

 

I'd translate that as "to look and not see, listen and not hear, is called [subtle mystery / whatever]"

 

Also still not convinced that the Wenzi knows all

 

 

 

The whole TTC does;) but in this particular case 此兩 'these two' refer to the 2 subjects of the prior sentence which are ' with and without desires'

 

OK

 

 

may be dont;)

 

Well maybe you can work on proving that one next!

 

Feel like destroying the foundations of Taoism?

 

 

 

damn i was shooting for more

 

Sorry.. it's just that, if we're trying to make the passage less cryptic/mystical,

 

"But Heaven (is not empty but) but is a pregnant Heaven, for Heaven is the gate of all miracles."

 

doesn't really help. Why are we talking about miracles, for example?

 

 

hmm..lets see...a completely alien culture, a cryptic text, 2500 years past, in a language most foreign ...probably a couple of brackets could be helpful;)

 

Point taken, but this isn't entirely what I meant. It seems to me that it would require brackets explaining things even to a contemporary of Laozi, because the whole passage jumps around from idea to idea with no explanation.

Edited December 9, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

"But Heaven (is not empty but) but is a pregnant Heaven, for Heaven is the gate of all miracles."

 

doesn't really help. Why are we talking about miracles, for example?

I blame zdic.net

 

妙

miào ㄇㄧㄠˋ

　1. 美，好：～语。～不可言。美～。～境。～处（chù）（a.好的地点；b.美妙的方面）。绝～。～趣横生。

　2. 奇巧，神奇

[dust]

But if the miao in 以观其妙 means weimiao meaning "extra-sensory signals", does the miao in 众妙之门 not also mean that?

 

"Heaven is the gate to all extra-sensory signals from Heaven"

 

...

Edited December 9, 2014 by dustybeijing

[ChiDragon]

if and done in one sentence kinda clash.

 

It has to be done in a contextual manner with many sentences.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I was kind of with you, up until this point.

 

故 would mean that we're following on from what what said before...but it doesn't really follow on

 

 

徼幸 I can see, but 微妙 as "spiritual extra-sensory signals from heaven" ??

 

 

此 referring to governing now?

 

 

And the last line is just as much 'gibberish' as the usual translations!

 

I think your getting stuck at times in a 'word', but it may be hard to see the entire flow of the explanation and how it ties together.

 

I'll speak to his last line:

 

 

玄之又玄，衆妙之門。 But Heaven (is not empty but) but is a pregnant 又/有 Heaven, for Heaven is the gate of all miracles.

 

 

I like that he broke out of the normal translation of Xuan 玄 as mystery and went with the code-word heaven; my code-word for 玄 is 'origin' (primal origin).

 

 

There is a similar meaning in The Nei-yeh (Inner Cultivation or Inward Training), which some think pre-dates LZ...

 

 

Roth translates the section as:

Within the mind there is yet another mind. (mind = XIN; Heart-Mind)

That mind within the mind: it is an awareness that precedes words.

Only after there is awareness does it take shape;

Only after it takes shape it there a word.

Only after there is a word is it implemented;

Only after it is implemented is there order. (order = ZHI, govern, regulate)

Yet the work as a whole shows this is but a spirit-like understanding; attain One is to attain the spirit-like nature of Dao.

---

If I were to re-write TT last line meaning:

There is a heaven within heaven; this inner heaven is the gate of mystical/Spiritual [Dao]

"Heaven is the gate to all extra-sensory signals from Heaven"

I think this is also in that same direction/idea...