[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[Marblehead]

That's an interesting point about Yutang. I just checked his commentary and he wrote the intro in 1948! So he didn't seem to have access to the Mawangdui version either!

 

I think Derek does a good job in many cases capturing a meaning some others don't seem to quite be able to do. His translation is worth a look. Probably like everyone, I have my favorites and buy those authors so they are close at hand. I do like to compare/contrast authors and versions. Look forward to more.

 

Yes, in addition to the translations I have in hardcopy I kidnapped a few other translations and have them in MSWord format so I can easily refer to them.

 

Yes, I admit that my fovorite is Henricks' but Wayne Wang's translation is growing on me over time. He is one of the very few who weren't afraid to use the word "tzujan" and define it.

 

Yes, judging from the number of views of this thread there is plenty of interest to justify continuing the series.

[Marblehead]

obviously we are part of Tao personified or formed, so the idea or implied sense of protecting ourselves from various forms or personifications through types of denial or rejection of same does not compute for me. Thus there are names and or personifications directly applicable all the way to the "One", while beyond that there are only alludings to with names, which still does not mean such names or alludings to are not or can not be conducive to same.

 

Om

 

Hi Bob,

 

That was almost confusing (Hehehe) but I agree with you. Everything is just as real as everything else. Even the unreal is real. Some things we can define and name, others we can only speak to some, but not all, of its characteristics keeping in mind that whatever name we give it is only temporary and for our purpose only.

 

And I agree, to deny or reject any aspect of Tao is to reject the Way of Tao. I guess that is the main reason I so often get into arguements with some of the concepts that are presented here and elsewhere.

 

It is my opinion that Taoism considers all aspects of Tao to be just as important as any other aspect. Hey, the rain falls on all equally.

[Procurator]

 

Yes, judging from the number of views of this thread there is plenty of interest to justify continuing the series.

i dont understand what exactly you guys are discussing. a book, right? so, what is this book about? is it a car owner's manual or a crime novel? you seem to be not too clear on that, either.

[strawdog65]

Hello Marblehead, 3bob,

 

 

 

Naming, which is done by us from both within and without,

is only relevant to us. It has no actual meaning, other than

a form , which when agreed upon by the many, allows for

intellectual discourse about said object.

 

I have always been quite perplexed by the

ambiguity of what we term "real".

 

Thinking back to when I had first heard about optical reality.

When it was made known to me, that, for instance, the colors that

we see are not in fact there. What?!?

 

Example being, when we view something that we describe as "red"

the color we have placed the arbitrary designation of "red" on,

we are actually seeing the reflected color of that item. When

looking at something, we do not really see what color it exists

as, only what our brain says..is "red".

 

What we are seeing is the reflection, which is analyzed by eyes,

transmitted to our brains, and Voila....that's "red".

So, right there the actuality of what is "real" has already been

compromised. So...the item we are viewing is some color,

but not necessarily what we believe.

 

So...if what we are looking at reflects the color "red"

to which our brains identify...that's what we "see"!

 

Of course all of this is because of the very limited

abilities of our physical senses. Just as dog and cats

can hear sounds we can not...There are colors beyond the

visible spectrum we can never view.

 

You may ask now..(if not much sooner)...whats the point?

 

The very aspect of Taoism (philosophical) that has gotten

me so interested...IS this aspect of Nature and reality

that is unknowable. All is contained within and without by Tao.

 

Tao and physics have many similarities...

 

Quantum Physics....action at a distance, Quantum entanglement.

Evidence of No actual separateness in our physical reality...

Tao is everything existing, seen and unseen alike.

 

All over the world people will insist

that they are separate from everyone else...

 

But when we look at the quantum level...

 

We see that there is nothing actually containing anything.

 

The containers of everything, including our bodies,

are literally full of holes, and empty space is what's

predominately there.

 

We have no true "impermeable" surface,the physical part

of us is constantly leaking off bits of ourselves.

 

Even when we don't actually "touch" something, when just being in

proximity there is a sharing, a commingling of what we are,

A sharing of what is "us" with what is "that".

At the Quantum level we flow like the ephemeral beings we are,

like Water mixing with more water, finding it's way to the

ocean that is everything, Tao

When faced with the true nature of reality

"Separateness" is a ridiculously invalid and shallow concept.

 

We, our bodies, the chair you sit in, the car you drive,

the person standing next to you in line, ...at the quantum level,

we and everything else, are living an

existence of unseen Commingling,

we are Literally...part of everything else,

as the world is part of us...

there is no "me" separate" from the whole.

 

We are threads, within a fabric,

only we are too close to see it.

[Marblehead]

i dont understand what exactly you guys are discussing. a book, right? so, what is this book about? is it a car owner's manual or a crime novel? you seem to be not too clear on that, either.

 

Yes, we are discussing a book. This book is generally titled "Tao Te Ching". It can be said to be the 'bible' of Taoism in all its many forms.

 

The opening post presented Chapter 1 of this book by one particular translator. The second post is an interpretation of that chapter by one of our members. The following discussions mostly spoke to different interpretations as well as different translators.

 

Nearly all discussions will go off topic in order to discuss something that is on a participants mind as a result of prior words that were spoken. This is natural and I think it would be rude to not at least acknowledge the poster's concerns.

 

You can read the first two posts and understand what the thread is about. After that any reader can join in the conversation, just read all the posts, or just pay attention to only those posts that speak directly to the chapter topic.

 

Become involved if you wish. Bring us back on topic if that is what your post is driving at.

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog,

 

I cannot argue against what you have said.

 

Neat that you used the color 'red' for your example because that is what one of my Buddhist friends uses as one of his examples.

 

Without discussing the entire post I will ask only one question: How many of us live our life at the quantum level?

 

I will suggest that none of us do. We live our life based on how we perceive the universe. We see a traffic light and a 'red' light is emitting. We don't just continue driving while thinking that what I am seeing is only the reflection of an object. A 'red' light means 'stop'. This is what most of us do. The others get into an accident or get a traffic ticket.

 

True, words and names have no value of their own, existing only in our mind. But they mean something to us. The word "Tao" has meaning to Taoists as does the word "water". Our brain needs these words in order to keep us out of trouble.

 

"Chair" is only a word. But I assure you, if you decide to sit down you better have an object that is understood as "chair" directly under your butt else you are going to have a very hard landing.

 

So while what you say here is true, and many other people speak to this same concept, we must remain aware of the 'usefulness' of these connections between the words and the object being referred to with the word.

 

And yes, there is empty space in my head and every now and then I can hear the marbles rattle.

 

Oh!, an additional thought: ... ... Never mind. I forgot what I was going to say.

[Alfred E]

So many people responded to the thread regarding starting a subforum about the Tao Teh Ching, I thought it might be nice to start discussing the chapters in order. What I'd like to do is present the chapter, then open the thread up for discussion on what we think the chapter is about. When I do this, I will be posting twice, the first post will contain the actual chapter, the second will be my comments on the chapter. If anyone else wants to partake in this project, I would suggest taking the same approach- Chapter first, then your comments. The intention of starting this thread is not simply to discuss my own interpretation, but rather allow people to discuss their views on the chapter and ask questions if they have them. With that said, here is Chapter One as translated by John C. H. Wu-

 

Chapter One

 

Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao.

Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.

 

As the origin of heaven-and-earth, it is nameless:

As "the Mother" of all things, it is nameable.

 

So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:

As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.

 

These two flow from the same source, though differently

named;

And both are called mysteries.

 

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence.

 

From DC Lau's translation: Copyright 1963

 

1. The way that can be spoken of

Is not the constant way;

The name that can be named

Is not the constant name.

 

2. The nameless was the beginning if heaven and earth;

The nameless was the mother of the myriad creatures.

 

3. Hence always rid yourself of desiresin order to observe its* secrets;

But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.

 

3a. These two are the same

But diverge in name as they issue forth,

Being the same they are called mysteries,

Mystery upon mystery -

The gateway of the manifold secrets.

 

4 The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly; the whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the bad.

 

5.Thus Something and Nothing produce each other;

The difficult and the easy compliment each other;

The long and the short off-set each other;

The high and the low incline toward each other;

Note and sound harmonize with each other;

Before and after follow each other.

 

6.Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action and practices the teaching that uses no words.

 

7. The myrad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority;

It gives life yet claims no possesion;

It benefits them yet enacts no gratitude;

It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit.

 

7a. It is because it lays claim to no merit

Thus its merit never deserves it.

 

8. Not to honor men of words will keep the people from contention; not to value goods which are hard to come by will keep them from theft; not to display what is desirable will keep them from being userled of mind.

 

9. Therefore in governing the people, the sage empties their minds but fills their bellies, weakens their wiils but strengthens their bones. He always keeps them innocent of knowledge and free from desire, and ensures that the clever never dare to act.

 

10. Do that which consists in taking no action and order will prevail.

[strawdog65]

Hi Strawdog,

 

I cannot argue against what you have said.

 

Neat that you used the color 'red' for your example because that is what one of my Buddhist friends uses as one of his examples.

 

Without discussing the entire post I will ask only one question: How many of us live our life at the quantum level?

 

I will suggest that none of us do. We live our life based on how we perceive the universe. We see a traffic light and a 'red' light is emitting. We don't just continue driving while thinking that what I am seeing is only the reflection of an object. A 'red' light means 'stop'. This is what most of us do. The others get into an accident or get a traffic ticket.

 

True, words and names have no value of their own, existing only in our mind. But they mean something to us. The word "Tao" has meaning to Taoists as does the word "water". Our brain needs these words in order to keep us out of trouble.

 

"Chair" is only a word. But I assure you, if you decide to sit down you better have an object that is understood as "chair" directly under your butt else you are going to have a very hard landing.

 

So while what you say here is true, and many other people speak to this same concept, we must remain aware of the 'usefulness' of these connections between the words and the object being referred to with the word.

 

And yes, there is empty space in my head and every now and then I can hear the marbles rattle.

 

Oh!, an additional thought: ... ... Never mind. I forgot what I was going to say.

 

Hi Marblehead!

 

Sorry to ramble on about all that...

 

I guess what I was most trying to say was that we

all live within this greatest Mystery we call Tao.

 

That possibly we will never fully comprehend

existence, because of our limitations.

 

That separateness is an Illusion.

 

That how we are as people in this physical realm...is

directly attributable to the completeness of our actions.

 

That Taoism to me is about acceptance.

Peace!

[Marblehead]

Hi Alfred E,

 

Interesting usage of "always allow yourself to have desires" in line 3.

 

I actually agree with this very much.

[Marblehead]

That possibly we will never fully comprehend

existence, because of our limitations.

 

Totally agree. Even science agrees with you because in truth we know only 4% (the visible universe) of the totality of the universe.

 

And that is why it is said that it is okay to say "I don't know."

Edited November 28, 2010 by Marblehead

[rene]

From DC Lau's translation: Copyright 1963

 

1. The way that can be spoken of

Is not the constant way;

The name that can be named

Is not the constant name.

 

2. The nameless was the beginning if heaven and earth;

The nameless was the mother of the myriad creatures.

 

3. Hence always rid yourself of desiresin order to observe its* secrets;

But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.

 

3a. These two are the same

But diverge in name as they issue forth,

Being the same they are called mysteries,

Mystery upon mystery -

The gateway of the manifold secrets.

 

4 The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly; the whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the bad.

 

5.Thus Something and Nothing produce each other;

The difficult and the easy compliment each other;

The long and the short off-set each other;

The high and the low incline toward each other;

Note and sound harmonize with each other;

Before and after follow each other.

 

6.Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action and practices the teaching that uses no words.

 

7. The myrad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority;

It gives life yet claims no possesion;

It benefits them yet enacts no gratitude;

It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit.

 

7a. It is because it lays claim to no merit

Thus its merit never deserves it.

 

8. Not to honor men of words will keep the people from contention; not to value goods which are hard to come by will keep them from theft; not to display what is desirable will keep them from being userled of mind.

 

9. Therefore in governing the people, the sage empties their minds but fills their bellies, weakens their wiils but strengthens their bones. He always keeps them innocent of knowledge and free from desire, and ensures that the clever never dare to act.

 

10. Do that which consists in taking no action and order will prevail.

 

AlfredE, hi (-:

 

Thanks for posting the first three chapters of DC Lau's work.

 

Whenever I come across a new (to me) rendition* I check how those two lines (that I bolded above) are handled:

 

If they are neutral in tone, like the Feng/English -

 

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

 

- or if they strongly favor one aspect over another, like this one by Frederick B. Thomas (1948):

 

Truly, only he who frees himself from desire

Can ever see the secret Essences.

He who has not conquered passion,

Can only see manifest results.

 

It's easy to see how some paths would favor this type of approach; and if the translator strongly embraces one of those paths it would likely reflect in the result.

 

Here is a link to "175+ translations of Chapter 1".

 

Also, here is link to another forum that for quite a while has been exploring the TTC in depth, perhaps more technical depth than will be addressed here.

 

warm regards

 

 

*I like using 'rendition' rather than 'translation' as, imo, every 'translation' of the DDJ can be nothing more than the individual's 'interpretation'.

[Guest allan]

[rene]

Additional thoughts which may answer some of the comments made in this thread, including a simple translation (with an all rights reserved) is provided below for those interested: http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot.com/2008/12/ttc-chapter-one.html

 

Hello Allan Lian, it's a delight to see you again. Nice rendition of Ch 1 on your site.

 

Did you work from the chinese characters directly, or use a reference source, or ?

Sorry - I cant recall if you're fluent in Chinese or not.

 

warm regards

rene

[OhC]

[Marblehead]

Hello Allan Lian, it's a delight to see you again. Nice rendition of Ch 1 on your site.

 

 

Agreed.

[majc]

AlfredE, hi (-:

 

Thanks for posting the first three chapters of DC Lau's work.

 

Whenever I come across a new (to me) rendition* I check how those two lines (that I bolded above) are handled:

 

If they are neutral in tone, like the Feng/English -

 

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

 

- or if they strongly favor one aspect over another, like this one by Frederick B. Thomas (1948):

 

Truly, only he who frees himself from desire

Can ever see the secret Essences.

He who has not conquered passion,

Can only see manifest results.

 

It's easy to see how some paths would favor this type of approach; and if the translator strongly embraces one of those paths it would likely reflect in the result.

 

Here is a link to "175+ translations of Chapter 1".

 

Also, here is link to another forum that for quite a while has been exploring the TTC in depth, perhaps more technical depth than will be addressed here.

 

warm regards

 

 

*I like using 'rendition' rather than 'translation' as, imo, every 'translation' of the DDJ can be nothing more than the individual's 'interpretation'.

All great points. Rendition is a good word, and I like expression too.

 

As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance".

 

I don't think that kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu in his writing the TTC in the first place.

 

I did a Tao Te Ching and it went like this:

 

The Tao that can be told is not the Tao;

there cannot be a true definition.

 

Nature proceeds undivided;

definitions are of separate things.

 

Thus...

Shed your notions to fly with this mystery.

With your notions you are in your own way.

 

Two polar ways to ride one wave,

made different by trying to explain.

 

Explore the unity beneath surface differences.

This is the doorway to the unwritten subtlety of the Master.

 

Rest of it continues here.

 

Edited December 7, 2010 by majc

[Marblehead]

Hi Majc,

 

Nicely done. Are you a surfer? (I had to ask.)

[rene]

All great points. Rendition is a good word, and I like expression too.

 

As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance".

 

This kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is not Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu.

 

Oh and hey this is mine:

 

The Tao that can be told is not the Tao;

there cannot be a true definition.

 

Nature proceeds undivided;

definitions are of separate things.

 

Thus...

Shed your notions to fly with its mystery.

With your notions you are in your own way.

 

Two polar ways to ride one wave,

made different by trying to explain.

 

Explore the unity beneath surface differences.

This is the doorway to the unwritten subtlety of the Master.

 

majc, hi (-:

 

Nice expression! I read a bit of the rest of your rendition on your website. Regarding this, from your post,

 

As for the neutral tone vs. Tao emphasis... Since the book is about Tao, I think not emphasizing Tao is a conscious attempt on behalf of the translator entertainer to make his/her expression of the TTC conform to a preconceived notion of "balance".

 

This isn't about "balance" - it's about attempted exclusion.

 

My perspective finds that the TTC is about all aspects of Tao; including both the mysterious and its reflection in things manifest. Not just one or the other - both. And even moreso than that - our experiencing both at the same time. If LiErh wanted to emphasize, as you suggest, only part of Tao, i.e., the essence and not the application, I doubt he'd have bothered with most of it including..say... Chapter 11 - (May I use yours?)

 

We join thirty spokes at a wheel's hub.

The hole in the middle moves the cart.

 

We mould clay into a pot.

The emptiness inside is useful.

 

We build walls to make a house.

The space is where we live.

 

Adapt what is.

Use what is not.

 

On the surface, which is where most TTC readers start, those words have nothing about Tao's essense and everything about its usefulness in application.

 

 

"This kind of deliberate, forced-down-a-particular-route action is not Te: the free-spirited watercourse style of action exemplified by Lao Tzu."

 

I cant speak for LiErh, but for me, ignoring half of the whole would be the forced action; which is why those two lines in Ch 1 work as a pretty good litmus.

 

warm regards

[Procurator]

Yes, we are discussing a book. This book is generally titled "Tao Te Ching". It can be said to be the 'bible' of Taoism in all its many forms.

..

Become involved if you wish. Bring us back on topic if that is what your post is driving at.

Marblehead, my bafflement with this discussion is exactly the issue of topic, there appears to be none.

 

you cant meaningfully discuss a book w/o stating explicitly why this book was ever written in the first place.

 

why somebody took a writing utensil to a bamboo plank 2,500 years ago. what he was trying to sell? What did the buyers believe they were buying?

 

unless you people answer those questions you dont know what exactly you are discussing.

 

calling it a bible seems to be off the mark since the bible WAS written as a clearly religious manual. On the other hand TTC does not give any importance to gods, religious rituals or divine commandments. So its not a religious manual.

 

What is it?

Edited November 28, 2010 by TianShi

[Mal]

you cant meaningfully discuss a book w/o stating explicitly why this book was ever written in the first place.

<snip>

What is it?

 

Well that's an aspect we could also discuss if people wanted.

 

With TTC creation myths I tend to like the story that Lao Tzu got fed up with how things were going in the state and decided to leave. But the Keeper of the pass would not let him leave. So Lao Tzu had to write the Tao Te Ching on topics ranging from political advice for rulers to practical wisdom for people.

 

Why do you think it was written TianShi?

[rene]

Well that's an aspect we could also discuss if people wanted.

 

Boy we sure could! And if we get a sub-forum up top, there could be a sticky-thread to collect these kinds of discussions about the TTC in general; freeing up the body for the Chapters!

 

Should we wait for more deliberations and/or an okay from Sean - or get Chapter 2 rolling?

 

warm regards

[Everything]

Hey, guys. I'm going to add my believe of the value / purpose of Tao te Ching and its first chapter. Feel free to read/comment.

 

I believe that Tao te Ching is a wonderful text. Only master minds and mature men have been involved in the developement of this text. I also believe that what is written in Tao te Ching, especially the first chapter, gives away the fact that it cannot be discussed. It is like discussing a piece of art or painting. You cannot extract wisdom from this book.

 

I believe that only the wise MATURE men can relate to the teachings that are trying to be described within this text. Thus only wise mature men can teach us the Tao, not because the Tao has teached it to them, but because they already knew it. Tao te ching has little more value then inspiration for the mature wise who cannot seem to find the right words.

 

Ofcourse you can discuss Tao Te Ching, as is the purpose of this topic, but I must say that I personally believe: you wont get far. The only thing you will do is make Tao te Ching seem more important then it is and win "followers" to the "teachings" within this piece of text. Your discussion is like an advertisement or a marketing strategy for creating hype around this text and its so called "hidden teachings" which it does not even intend to give away to the immature and common folks.

 

Lastly, I believe that discussing Tao Te Ching is still fun, even if it doesn't have much value to the avarage human being on planet earth. I personally use it to have something to give credit for my own personal developement. This will surely keep the people from ever finding out where my wisdom truely came from as they flip trough the pages of Tao te Ching and not finding much their entire lifes. The only times I did teach wisdom trough Tao te Ching was when I applied my own wisdom and used Tao Te Ching as a form of communication to obscure the core of my teachings.

Thus we give our interpretation of chapter one, not to discuss it, but to share our knowledge in a more private/secure and fun/interactive way. We think we are discussing the meaning of Tao te Ching, while infact, we are discussing our own wisdom. As is said in chapter one.

 

Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. Don't even go there, Tao does not exist. It changes and is relative to every person. That is why the Tao lasted so long.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Everything

[Mal]

Should we wait for more deliberations and/or an okay from Sean - or get Chapter 2 rolling?

 

If you want to make more threads go for it. I can easily move threads into a forum if we do go that way.

 

From trying to drive discussion on chapters in the bookclub. It takes a LOT of effort over TIME to keep these things going. So I'm sort of thinking -

if the enthusiasm keeps up and grows make a forum.

If it dies out in a few weeks... at least we had some fun in the threads.

[Procurator]

Well that's an aspect we could also discuss if people wanted.

nah, ppl want escapism.

 

With TTC creation myths I tend to like the story that Lao Tzu got fed up with how things were going in the state and decided to leave. But the Keeper of the pass would not let him leave. So Lao Tzu had to write the Tao Te Ching on topics ranging from political advice for rulers to practical wisdom for people.

that is not how the original story goes, but u r right it was for the rulers.

 

 

Why do you think it was written TianShi?

 

well ppl just dont wanna c it, but its right there in the text. The ruler should do this, the ruler should do that. In that harsh age the human exsistence was all about survival. Its a survival manual for the ruler.

[Procurator]

This will surely keep the people from ever finding out where my wisdom truely came from as they flip trough the pages of Tao te Ching and not finding much their entire lifes.

they cant handle the truth, can they?

[Everything]

they cant handle the truth, can they?

Yeah, takes time to handle a new truth, its annoying to loose your own truth or have it being threatened by someone else.

The truth will eventually show it self in some way or another, when people are being guided by one who knows that truth. I've actually tried helping people trough words a lot. Never did I succeed, but the motivation to share my experiences is not gone.

 

You can never give your full truth in one piece. It will confuse everyone and make them suspicious of your intentions and eventually feel threatened by you. Some vietnam veterans say that processing trauma's is the same as changing religions or changing "factions" in a war. People loose their reason to go on. Thus the wise does not speak... Haha, here I go using Tao te Ching again. I love it.