[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[ChiDragon]

I blame zdic.net

 

妙

miào ㄇㄧㄠˋ

　1. 美，好：～语。～不可言。美～。～境。～处（chù）（a.好的地点；b.美妙的方面）。绝～。～趣横生。

　2. 奇巧，神奇

 

But if the miao in 以观其妙 means weimiao meaning "extra-sensory signals", does the miao in 众妙之门 not also mean that?

 

"Heaven is the gate to all extra-sensory signals from Heaven"

 

...

 

 

以观其妙

One would observe its 妙(miao).

 

It seems to me that 妙 in context fits all of the definitions by Taoist Texts.

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Before I say anything else, I'd like to see all parts put together...brackets and all

 

Right now, all I see when I read the Chinese is the meaning I already have in my head.

[Marblehead]

Right now, all I see when I read the Chinese is the meaning I already have in my head.

I had to laugh. My head is that way too. Marbles it is.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

...like Zen Buddhism before it, Daoism is the object of various Western fantasies and

fictions.

Louis Komjathy 康思奇, Ph.D.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=cYNnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=daoism+fantasy&source=bl&ots=W6xRwIKsha&sig=XiiVHNSJ49o92RMpeFYG69xM3XM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ILmHVIOCJcnwUPOMhJgO&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=daoism%20fantasy&f=false

[Taoist Texts]

And even the desire to have no desires is a desire.

Marblehead is wise. Thats exactly what the concluding lines say: 'the conduct with or without desires, differs in name only, both must come from Heaven'.

[Taoist Texts]

 

There is a heaven within heaven; this inner heaven is the gate of mystical/Spiritual [Dao]

You channel Heshangong here 天中復有天 http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%88%E7%8E%84#n648880

 

 

also the proverb

人上有人，天上有天

each man has its superior, even the Heaven has another Heaven above

Edited December 10, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

Before I say anything else, I'd like to see all parts put together...brackets and all

Absolutely!

 

 

I am awed by ctext.

 

孝至卷第... :

或曰：「聖人事異乎？」曰：「聖人德之為事，異亞之。故常修德者，本也；見異而修德者，末也。本末不修而存者，未之有也。」

The Priority of Filial...:

Someone asked: Does the sage give attention to strange phenomena?

Yangzi said: The sage attends to de; strange phenomena are secondary. Thus, constantly cultivating de—this is to grasp the root. Waiting to see strange phenomena and only then cultivating de—this is to grasp the tip of the branch. To cultivate neither the root nor the tip of the branch and yet survive—there has yet to be a case of this. 《孝至卷第十三 - The Priority of Filial Devotion》

 

Taking that into account as the last piece of the puzzle:

 

 

 

道德經1

 

道可道，非常道。

The Dao that the king on his own is capable of, is not the original Dao.

名可名，非常名。

The names that the king on his own is establishing, are not the correct names.

無名天地之始；有名萬物之母。

For the primal origin of Heaven and Earth has no names, but is the mother of all named things.

故常無欲，以觀其妙；常有欲，以觀其徼。

Therefore, when the king is in the primal desire-less mode he is guided by the subtle omens from the nameless; when the king is in the primal desirous mode he is guided by the named signs from the named things.

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。

For these two modes, are sent out from the same togetherness, as are both subtle omens and named signs, that togetherness is Heaven.

玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

Behind Heaven is another Heaven, together they are the gates of all signs and omens.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

That is too mystical for me but I do actually like it. Kinda like Greek Mythology, fabricated stories but good lessons within.

[dust]

道可道，非常道。

 

The Dao that the king on his own is capable of, is not the original Dao.

名可名，非常名。

The names that the king on his own is establishing, are not the correct names.

無名天地之始；有名萬物之母。

For the primal origin of Heaven and Earth has no names, but is the mother of all named things.

 

So far....

It's basically the same as many other translations, except speaking specifically of kings.

 

I'm still not sure what to make of this king thing -- are we certain that Xunzi, in the 可道 passage, was speaking of kings specifically?

 

 

 

I missed this before, but:

 

曰：「何謂正名五」。

對曰：「權也、衡也、規也、矩也、准也，此謂正名五。(Kui Du )

Question: what are 5 attributes of a corrected name?

Answer: balance, constancy, measure, precision, norm; such are 5 corrected names.

 

桓公曰：「事名二，正名五，而天下治。」「何謂事名二」？對曰：「天筴，陽也。壤筴，陰也，此謂事名二。」曰：「何謂正名五」。對曰：「權也、衡也、規 也、矩也、准也，此謂正名五。其在色者，青黃白黑赤也。其在聲者，宮商角徵羽也。其在味者，醉辛鹹苦甘也。二五者，童山竭澤，人君以數制之人。味者，所以 守民口也。聲者，所以守民耳也。色者，所以守民目也。人君失二五者，亡其國。大夫失二五者，亡其勢。民失二五者，亡其家，此國之至機也，謂之國機。」

 

Translated into modern Chinese (sorry non-Chinese readers, I can't be bothered to translate all this!)

 

桓公说：“在‘事名二正名五而天下治’这句话里，什么叫作‘事名二’呢？”管仲回答说：“天道为阳，地道为阴，这就是事名二。”“什么叫正名五呢？”回答 说：“权、衡、规、矩、准，这就是正名五。它们体现在颜色上，就分青、黄、白、黑、赤；体现在声音上，就分宫、商、羽、微、角；体现在味觉上，就分酸、 辣、咸、苦、甜。这里的利用‘二五’，同上面的‘童山竭泽’一样，都是人君用来控制人们的。五味，是用来控制人们饮食的；五声是用来控制人们听欲的；五 色，是用来控制人们观赏的。人君丢掉了‘二五’，就会亡国；大夫丢掉了 ‘二五’，就丧失权势；普通人丢掉了‘二五’，也不能治理一家。这是国家最重要的关键，所以叫作‘国机’。”

 

Essentially, this isn't about corrected names but the names of the 5 attributes that make someone 'zheng'. The bold:

 

"When the king loses the '2 and 5', the country dies; when a powerful man loses the '2 and 5', he loses power; when a normal man loses the '2 and 5', he can't manage even his own household."

 

The '2' refers to Heaven and Earth as yang and yin; the '5' refers to these 5 qualities (as translated above), which can be applied to flavours, colours, sounds, etc, and used to control people.

[Taoist Texts]

So far....

It's basically the same as many other translations, except speaking specifically of kings.

 

I'm still not sure what to make of this king thing -- are we certain that Xunzi, in the 可道 passage, was speaking of kings specifically?

 

Either them or noblemen which is the same thing, i am sure he was not speaking about paisanos

 

 

I missed this before, but:

 

 

Essentially, this isn't about corrected names but the names of the 5 attributes that make someone 'zheng'. The bold:

Thats possible, I am not ready to debate this point so I forfeit

 

However at this link some chinese tongzhi discusses Kongzi's 'correct names' and LZ's 'constant names' in one breath.

 

http://www.confucius2000.com/outside/llzdlxsx.htm

[dawei]

So far....

It's basically the same as many other translations, except speaking specifically of kings.

 

I'm still not sure what to make of this king thing -- are we certain that Xunzi, in the 可道 passage, was speaking of kings specifically?

 

I have seen variations on the opening line to include:

 

道可, 道非, 常道 -

This stresses the receptive and negative side of Dao... eternally moving between these. More a metaphysical view of the line.

 

 

道, 可道，非常道

Dao, when Dao'ing (manifest), is not the eternal Dao (void).

 

I find TT is using this second idea (knowingly or not) but applying it the manifest world as only that is capable of Dao'ing;

 

As the DDJ is often viewed as advice for a ruler/king, it is easily applied as such.

[dust]

'forfeit'... ha! I'm not challenging you to a duel! Just want to make sure that the info we're using is correct...

 

I'll look at that some time...but there's a lot of Chinese right there...

 

 

故常無欲，以觀其妙；常有欲，以觀其徼。

Therefore, when the king is in the primal desire-less mode he is guided by the subtle omens from the nameless; when the king is in the primal desirous mode he is guided by the named signs from the named things.

 

OK..I have no contradictory evidence here. Or, as you say, I'm not ready to debate it further, so...

 

I will just say that I still don't feel very sure about 妙 as 'omens' or the like

 

 

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。

For these two modes, are sent out from the same togetherness, as are both subtle omens and named signs, that togetherness is Heaven.

玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

Behind Heaven is another Heaven, together they are the gates of all signs and omens.

 

Again... still uncertain about 妙

 

 

Just my opinion, of course, but I still think that trying to tie this passage directly to governance is a little difficult. I'm going to hold on to the belief that it wasn't an original chapter and that the author went a bit too far with the obscurity

[dawei]

Either them or noblemen which is the same thing, i am sure he was not speaking about paisanos

 

 

Thats possible, I am not ready to debate this point so I forfeit

 

However at this link some chinese tongzhi discusses Kongzi's 'correct names' and LZ's 'constant names' in one breath.

 

http://www.confucius2000.com/outside/llzdlxsx.htm

 

I think even paisanos can recognize the ancient obsession with correct names (rectification, a white horse is not a horse) vs LZ's handling.

[dawei]

I will just say that I still don't feel very sure about 妙 as 'omens' or the like

 

My first reaction to 'signs and omens' was that some may not see this as a connection to the more obsessed, Chinese materialistic view of 'fortune vs misfortune'.

[Taoist Texts]

Just my opinion, of course, but I still think that trying to tie this passage directly to governance is a little difficult. I'm going to hold on to the belief that it wasn't an original chapter and that the author went a bit too far with the obscurity

thats cool. I also agree that we debated all we could out of this for the time being.

[Firedragon]

Hi,

I was reading the different meanings of the Chinese words of Chapter 1 (my edition has the meaning of the Chinese words butI don´t speak Chinese, please correct me if I have make a mistake because of my lack of knowledge of Chinese grammar), and I think that Lao Zi was talking about the esoteric and exoteric paths. He says that the esoteric goes deeper but requires being without desire or mental patterns (yü) and controlling your mind.

It´s interesting that the Tao Te Ching begins like this: it gives a great importance to the mind and emotions, but Taoism is known for its energy practices and martial arts. Is Taoism very misunderstood?

The Tao Te Ching has many possible translations, and many possible meanings. What meanings are correct? One? Several? All?

Also, is secrecy considered useful in Taoist spirituality? If "The path that can be talked about is not the absolute path", maybe some things are supposed to be secret. Maybe it is like in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika? "A yogi desirous of success should keep the knowledge of Hatha Yoga secret; for it becomes potent by concealing, and impotent by exposing."

[Marblehead]

Hi Firedragon,

 

Nice to see the interest in Taoism.  I miss those discussions.

 

Which translations present the original thoughts best?  I have no idea.  I don't even know if there is such a thing.  "Best" is going to be a subjective valuation.  I prefer Henricks' but that's because of who I am.

 

But I think your observations are correct and valid.  In this first chapter Lao Tzu set out the difference between the spiritual (wu) and the manifest (yu).  But after stating there is a difference he further stated that they originate from the same source.

 

While we have a body we must concern our self with the manifest aspect of Tao.  This we can talk about.

 

But then, that which cannot be spoken of is just as important.  That is, our spiritual self and the spiritual aspect of Tao.

 

Wu is not a secret.  It's just that ir will be different for everyone.  And every perspective is correct for each individual.  Therefore, if all are correct but all are different the concept really cannot be talked about.

 

IMO, the secrecy stuff came along by people who professed to know the truth but it will cost you for them to share it with you.  This is, IMO total "yu".

 

Yes, the Tao Te Ching speaks mostly to the manifest but there is always a spiritual aspect at the root of everything that is said. 

 

It is my understanding that energy work and the martial arts were born out of Buddhist influence in Taoism.

[Firedragon]

Hi Marblehead,

I think that energy work in Asia has a Taoist origin. The three worms in the three tan tiens, which were symbolic of the defects of the personality that are an obstacle to spiritual progress, later became in yoga the three granthis and the snake kundalini, and the Buddhists took their energy model from the Hindus. It also passed to Egypt, where the kundalini in the third eye became he Ureus serpent in the forehead, and in Egypt it lost the Hindu meaning as well, and became a protection symbol for the pharaohs.

The original Taoist energy system of the microcosmic orbit it became the ida, pingala and sushumna, and eventually only the Third Eye.

Do Buddhist martial arts have a spiritual meaning, like for example Tai Chi? Or are they just a tool to focus and be physically fit?

[dawei]

Also, is secrecy considered useful in Taoist spirituality? If "The path that can be talked about is not the absolute path", maybe some things are supposed to be secret. Maybe it is like in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika? "A yogi desirous of success should keep the knowledge of Hatha Yoga secret; for it becomes potent by concealing, and impotent by exposing."

 

Maybe we can say, the secrets are useful

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

I think that energy work in Asia has a Taoist origin. The three worms in the three tan tiens, which were symbolic of the defects of the personality that are an obstacle to spiritual progress, later became in yoga the three granthis and the snake kundalini, and the Buddhists took their energy model from the Hindus. It also passed to Egypt, where the kundalini in the third eye became he Ureus serpent in the forehead, and in Egypt it lost the Hindu meaning as well, and became a protection symbol for the pharaohs.

The original Taoist energy system of the microcosmic orbit it became the ida, pingala and sushumna, and eventually only the Third Eye.

Do Buddhist martial arts have a spiritual meaning, like for example Tai Chi? Or are they just a tool to focus and be physically fit?

I have already gone beyond the point I should have.

 

We now need some members who are knowledgeable in the history of energy work in China.  I'm not one of them.

 

But I still like to talk about Taoist Philosophy.  Hehehe.