[TTC Study] Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching

[dynamictao]

Dawei,

 

As you know, Heng appeared first in Mawangui text. That's why it was missing for 2000 years.

To me, Heng is Oneness or wholeness. All realities must be whole (Hegel).

Again, I have a definite picture for Chapter 1

(that can be viewed in the Amazon preview of my Kindle book. Sorry I have not gotten a chance to put is on my website).

There seems a way to put a jpg picture in the forum, but I don't know yet.

As for Xuan, it is a "dark, unclear" state with things unseparated (e.g., Wu and Yu) - again to reflect the logic model.

[Aaron]

Bump... Merged this with DynamicTao's translation of chapter one... merging doesn't notify of new topics, so just wanted to make sure everyone knew where it went.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A light seemed to turn on for me yesterday, while going over the first lines of the Dao De Jing.

 

I had mentioned before that I felt "Dao Ke Dao" referred to something similar to Legge's translation "The Dao that can be trodden." Dao is a path and it is also following that path.

 

This needs to be read in context of the fact that Mo-ism was a predominating philosophy of the time, predating Confucianism, which talked about 道 Dao as a way of ethics or dao-de. When starting the treatise on Dao-De, the first thing that needed to be established is that Dao is mystical! It is not merely a way of human ethics and behavior!

 

So:

道可道

The Dao of accepted precepts to be followed by humankind

非恆道

is not the eternal Dao

 

Laozi is showing that the Dao extends far beyond the mere rules that govern human behaviour! It is the way that governs all nature and gives birth to Heaven and Earth!

 

名可名，

The names and accepted descriptions,

非恆名

can never be that which is glorified

 

These descriptions and precepts are not the Eternal Dao, the Vast Greatness(see chapter 25, or commentary in my personal practice discussion).

 

So there you have it (I believe)!

 

"The Dao as a way of precepts to be followed by humankind

Is not the Eternal Way!"

[taijistudent]

A light seemed to turn on for me yesterday, while going over the first lines of the Dao De Jing.

 

I had mentioned before that I felt "Dao Ke Dao" referred to something similar to Legge's translation "The Dao that can be trodden." Dao is a path and it is also following that path.

 

This needs to be read in context of the fact that Mo-ism was a predominating philosophy of the time, predating Confucianism, which talked about 道 Dao as a way of ethics or dao-de. When starting the treatise on Dao-De, the first thing that needed to be established is that Dao is mystical! It is not merely a way of human ethics and behavior!

 

So:

道可道

The Dao of accepted precepts to be followed by humankind

非恆道

is not the eternal Dao

 

Laozi is showing that the Dao extends far beyond the mere rules that govern human behaviour! It is the way that governs all nature and gives birth to Heaven and Earth!

 

名可名，

The names and accepted descriptions,

非恆名

can never be that which is glorified

 

These descriptions and precepts are not the Eternal Dao, the Vast Greatness(see chapter 25, or commentary in my personal practice discussion).

 

So there you have it (I believe)!

 

"The Dao as a way of precepts to be followed by humankind

Is not the Eternal Way!"

I like your approach. I think that you may find a way keep the original simplicity and still retain the sense that you are attempting to convey. I believe this is an interesting approach that will add to the understanding of the Dao De Jing.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks, and yes, could use some tweaking for lyrical aesthetic.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay, so here's a better way to say lyrically what I had above, which fits the meaning.

 

道可道

The Dao that can be taught

非恆道

is not the eternal Dao

名可名，

terms and concepts, honourifics and explanations

非恆名

can never be that which is glorified

 

I've seen that 名 can mean honoured and glory, so this is a helpful way, to render the phrase in English. Enduring+not =/= "never" exactly, but it works in the sentence for the English construction of the phrase.

 

 

Interesting notes about Heng and Chang. I think you could get the same meaning of true/whole from the English word "eternal." These three words seem to be made from the same clay..

 

 

edit:

Before all this, I had "The Dao known as Dao, is not the true and everlasting Dao," based partly on Ke可/can being "a mouth consenting." Seems that hunch was leading to this same idea. However, either one would need additional notes to explain historical context.

 

 

2nd edit:

On, uh, third thought... I don't know why this seemed so different to me. It really says the same thing as all the other translations but with a footnote about Mo-ism..

 

Okay... sorry for thinkin' out loud..

Edited March 19, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[taijistudent]

Okay, so here's a better way to say lyrically what I had above, which fits the meaning.

 

道可道

The Dao that can be taught

非恆道

is not the eternal Dao

名可名，

terms and concepts, honourifics and explanations

非恆名

can never be that which is glorified

Yes, I think this version maintains the concepts and the poetry. Building on your ideas:

 

The Dao we speak of

Is not the Great Dao

The Great Dao is more than the words we utter

Words are not what we seek to glorify.

Edited March 19, 2013 by taijistudent

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I it really comes down to the rest of the chapter too, since all of this is explained clearer and clearer as the chapter continues.

 

I like your wording though. They work as a stand-alone stanza, which most stanzas do in the original words of the DDJ.

 

Sometimes I realize that the fun I have with translating is like when I played tetris as a kid. Flipping the English sentence around until it fits what was already there, while keeping future structure in mind, and leaving space open for different contexts when possible.

 

[taijistudent]

I it really comes down to the rest of the chapter too, since all of this is explained clearer and clearer as the chapter continues.

 

I like your wording though. They work as a stand-alone stanza, which most stanzas do in the original words of the DDJ.

 

Sometimes I realize that the fun I have with translating is like when I played tetris as a kid. Flipping the English sentence around until it fits what was already there, while keeping future structure in mind, and leaving space open for different contexts when possible.

Keep up the great work you are doing! I think we need more of these kind of ideas and insights.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is my final translation of Chapter 1. I have translated the word Heng 恆 as "True" and Xuen 玄 as "Profound." Heng means Oneness or wholeness, so whatever is qualified with Heng has reality. Xuen is the state without clear separation of Wu and Yu.

1. Tao may be talked about, but it is not the True Tao.

   Names may be described, but they are not the True Names.

2. Wu names the beginning of the myriad things;

   Yu names the mother of the myriad things.

3. However,

   In True Wu, we observe mysterious appearance;

   In True Yu, we observe fading boundaries.

4. Both appear simultaneously, as different manifestations of the same (Tao).
5. Profound upon Profound, they are the gateways to all mysteries.

This is a new platform to have a logical interpretation of the whole Tao Te Ching. The detailed discussion of the analysis can be read in the free preview of [Tao Te Ching: An Ultimate Translation. by Wayne L. Wang] - my new Kindle eBook.

 

For discussion of Heng, see

Wang, (James) Qingjie (2000). Heng Dao and Appropriation of Nature - A Hermeneutical Interpretation of Laozi. Asian Philosophy, 10(2), 149-163. “Heng and Temporality of Dao: Laozi and Heidegger,” in Dao: A Journal of Comparative Philosophy, vol.1, no.1, pp.55-71. Winter 2001.

 

Thank you for sharing your work here Dr. Wang. If I may,

 

Is "appearance" an implication of the word 欲 yù/desire here? I can see how "true wu" incorporates "without desire" while not stating it explicitly, assuming that that 欲 was referring separately to both appearance and desire.

 

 

It seems I was not far off from the same track when coming up with

 

 

無名天地之始

One cannot conceptualize where Heaven and Earth came from (as they did not come from a concept.)

"Without name: the origin of Heaven and Earth"

 

有名萬物之母。

There can, however, be a concept of where the myriad children of Heaven and Earth came from (: they came from the concept(s) of Heaven and Earth).

"Existing: the name of the mother of the myriad things"

 

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

Edited March 20, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Wu Ming Jen]

If I forget about the words and the translations because there are so so many. First chapter,Tao is not a what,what ever we say is not the true Tao. Visible forms can be talked about (named) but see the formless in form and see form in the formless.Seeing the unseen is truly seeing. seeing with just the eyes is no good, human mind is no good, These concepts In TTC are beyond intellectual, rational and discriminating mind..This is where the mystery lies, the gate. The author wants to point out how limited human mind is and provokes the reader to use a different mode of mind to follow and understand. The Tao or shinning mind is always with us but is used less as the self takes over as the lead role of life.This is where the Greeks went wrong 2500 years ago using rational mind to understand the world with out transcending mind itself. The line about we call it two things but is one source is yin and yang these two are actually one.Just like talking about different internal organs of the body but really there is one body. This is my story today and it will change the next day Tranquility and peace to all

[ChiDragon]

These concepts In TTC are beyond intellectual, rational and discriminating mind..This is where the mystery lies, the gate. The author wants to point out how limited human mind is and provokes the reader to use a different mode of mind to follow and understand.

 

How can these concepts in the TTC are beyond intellectual, rational and discriminating mind....??? These concepts came from an intellectual mind, wasn't it.....??? The latter is only one's opinion. The author did not want to point out how limited human mind is nor provokes the reader to use a different mode of mind to follow and understand. It was only in the mind of the reader. Lao Tze did expect the reader to understand exactly what he wrote but not to interpret it differently. Those who interpret it differently, only and only if, they did not understand perfectly.

Edited March 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Wu Ming Jen]

Lao Tzu mentions the great mystery If you can enter the gate with intellectual thinking please share. This is dark this is light compared to each other using mind is easy. Now if these two things are one mind goes what? We can see how they complete each other and become a whole But how can we know something not compared to something else. There maybe nothing to know. We come from the unknown original mind is tranquil and peaceful what need for concepts or words at all? Only my opinion which is partial knowledge.

[ChiDragon]

Only my opinion which is partial knowledge.

 

Partial knowledge, does it mean not fully investigated into the whole story.....???

[Wu Ming Jen]

Opinion from self separates me from the whole. I transcend such ways of thought (most of the time) but for fun and discussion I must remain on the human plane of communication,Our language is set up in duality. In Chinese danger also mean opportunity.

[ChiDragon]

In Chinese danger also mean opportunity.

 

Did you mean 勝從險中求.....???

 

Perhaps: 險中求勝

Edited March 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Wu Ming Jen]

Sorry I meant crisis pictograph is danger + opportunity. This can be argued because of so many different meanings of both characters, much depends on what is being talked about and placement of pictographs used before and after. In the context of polar complete philosophy of Lao Tzu this meaning makes perfect sense , English with absolute meaning and fragment of the whole way of language makes this pictograph of crisis stand out.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[dawei]

If I forget about the words and the translations because there are so so many. First chapter,Tao is not a what,what ever we say is not the true Tao. Visible forms can be talked about (named) but see the formless in form and see form in the formless.Seeing the unseen is truly seeing. seeing with just the eyes is no good, human mind is no good, These concepts In TTC are beyond intellectual, rational and discriminating mind..This is where the mystery lies, the gate. The author wants to point out how limited human mind is and provokes the reader to use a different mode of mind to follow and understand. The Tao or shinning mind is always with us but is used less as the self takes over as the lead role of life.This is where the Greeks went wrong 2500 years ago using rational mind to understand the world with out transcending mind itself. The line about we call it two things but is one source is yin and yang these two are actually one.Just like talking about different internal organs of the body but really there is one body. This is my story today and it will change the next day Tranquility and peace to all

 

Just wanted to say that I generally agree with your post and it is refreshing to see such comments. Thanks.

[lienshan]

The author wants to point out how limited human mind is

 

It's a walk or walking. It's not always a walk.

 

That's how I read and translate the opening line of the exavacated Mawangdui chapter one versions.

The author wants to point out that the character tao is both a noun and a verb!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just wanted to say:

 

It's not that the path can't be spoken of, but that "the way of wisdom that can be a (set) path will not always be the path." This speaks about the spontaneity from the master's level where there is no thought of patterns and paths anymore but all comes from the watery responsiveness within the master.

 

The way can be spoken of, but there is no one way that is the way, of the way of The Way.

[lienshan]

the way of The Way.

 

The character ke (maybe/or) did always mark the following character as a verb in pre-Qin classical chinese.

 

The first three characters of chapter 1 are: tao ke tao

 

That'll say the second tao must be read/translated as a verb and the way of The Way is a noun.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The character ke (maybe/or) did always mark the following character as a verb in pre-Qin classical chinese.

 

The first three characters of chapter 1 are: tao ke tao

 

That'll say the second tao must be read/translated as a verb and the way of The Way is a noun.

 

After writing the below, I now realize that you're referring to my translation of "fei chang Dao" and not of "Dao ke dao." However:

 

What I was saying is that - it's not that "the path cannot be spoken of" as many interpret the lines and then wonder why this line is followed by 81 chapters. That was my main point. Then to interpret "Dao can be spoken not always the path" I wrote the above paragraph. it is not a word for word translation.

 

That said, "Dao ke dao fei chang dao" would have this same meaning as "Path that can be followed" or "Path that can be taught," or "path that can be a path" or "The Path that should be The Path is not a constant road."

 

I did look through Pulleyblank's "..Classical Chinese grammar", pp 42-44 before writing post #220 btw. Nonetheless, I think there may be enough poetic flexibility when looking at those 6 words to give it the feel of a noun while using it as a verb, though that is up to the perception of the reader and it would still lead to the same overall meaning as when it's a verb. That's sort of the beauty in the prose and poetry found throughout the text, though, again, the meaning is not changed by it's presence there, real or perceived.

[lienshan]

Nonetheless, I think there may be enough poetic flexibility when looking at those 6 words to give it the feel of a noun while using it as a verb, though that is up to the perception of the reader and it would still lead to the same overall meaning as when it's a verb.

 

I've had no objection, if we were talking the Received version, but your translation of the lines 3 and 4 is of the Mawangdui version, because you in line 3 use the original term "myriad things" instead of the later editted term "heaven and earth"

 

Wu names the beginning of the myriad things;

Yu names the mother of the myriad things.

 

The shi (to begin) character followed by an ye character was pre-Qin equal to the timephase: at the beginning

Your translation is therefore incorrect.

 

Nobody are naming at the beginning.

Everybody are naming Mum.

 

mu followed by a ye character marks mu as a personal name; the personal name of a mother is Mum in english.

My english is bad, sorry, I can't produce a real translation, but the above indicates how I read Laozi's arguement.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Lienshan, I'm not sure if your post was meant for me. My translation of those lines was:

 

無名天地之始

wú míng tiān dì zhī shĭ,

“without, name, Heaven, Earth, beginning”

One cannot conceptualize where Heaven and Earth came from (as they did not come from a concept)

 

有名萬物之母。

yŏu míng wàn wù zhī mŭ.

Exist, name, innumerable, things, .., mother

There can, however, be a concept of where the 萬myriad children of Heaven and Earth came from (, they came from the concept(s) of Heaven and Earth)

Edited April 2, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[lienshan]

I didn't see that you quoted a translation and I'm pleased to see your own translation of the Received version

 

Line 4 is no problem:

 

有名萬物之母。

yŏu míng wàn wù zhī mŭ.

There is the name the mother of everything.

 

有 yŏu preceeding a sentence, as in chapter 25, means There is / There was

無 wú preceeding line 4 is therefore meant to be read as There isn't / There wasn't

 

Laozi wrote Tao Te Ching while the negotiation character wú became popular replacing cang.

That's why there are two versions of chapter 64 in the Guodian version; one with cang wei and one with wu wei.

wu meaning "There isn't" became not a standard, but there was still no standard, when Laozi wrote his chapter 1.

 

無名天地之始

wú míng tiān dì zhī shĭ,

There isn't the name the beginning of heaven and earth.

 

Is tao both "the beginning of heaven and earth" and "the mother of everything"?

If so then tao isn't a name and is a name. That's how I understand his pointe!

Edited April 2, 2013 by lienshan