Are all the religions equally corrupt?

[Apech]

Maybe he was being humble and you and your companions just didn't appreciate him anyway?

 

 

 

 

Quite probably.

[ralis]

At the same time, there is something to be said about life elongation through sexual contact with the young, if you're tantrically open that is.

 

I hope you would define an age group here so as to not give anyone the wrong impression. Some texts refer to age 13 which would be jailbait in most countries!

 

Norbu gives several long life practices which are yab/yum in nature.

Edited July 24, 2011 by ralis

[sifusufi]

Observation...

 

Most hospitals in the States have a chapel for Christians, a temple for the Jewish. and a Mosque for Muslims,

 

I have witnessed this nationwide.

 

This clearly demonstrates a division in beliefs and a desire for corporations to be "PC" and "Diverse".

 

So why are Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Wiccians, Satanists, Santarios, Palos, & High elevated tantric lamas of liberal lesbian Portland single moms et.al left out of the equation???

 

 

 

[suninmyeyes]

[markern]

[goldisheavy]

I used to think that some religions are better or cleaner then others, but seems like they are all the same just a difference in semantics....WTF

 

Just ran into this art.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist

 

It's all about money, sex, drugs..........................

 

I think the process of organized religion is a corrupt process. Unlike steve f who thinks it's all just individuals, I think since the process itself is a corrupt one, the individuals are only at fault for engaging in the process of organized religion and not for anything else.

 

That said, various religious doctrines are not all equally good and equally peaceful. Some religions have aggressive doctrines that take a stance ranging between animosity and condescending indifference toward outsiders. You can imagine the effect these doctrines have.

 

As for why the organized religion as a process is corrupt, it has something to do with what I like to call "dittohead power." There are people who don't like to think for themselves. These people are just waiting to be told what to think. Then someone arises who agrees to fill up the minds of the dittoheads with various programming. When that's done, dittoheads become organized into an army. I call those dittohead armies or dittohead power projection. And organized religion is essentially a dittohead power projection phenomenon as a process. Dogma is at the center of practically every organized religion and practically every organized religion's priests go around telling dittoheads what and how to think, and when, and how many times a day, as well as whom to fuck, how often, when, and so on. And when needed these dittoheads can be mobilized as personal little armies for the benefit of the preacher. When dittoheads are not used as armies they are used as batteries, as a financial base for the preacher.

 

It's a sick and dysfunctional process if you ask me. It's not the case that it's just a few bad apple individuals caught in a generally good process. No. The whole process of organized religion is a dysfunctional one from top to bottom.

Edited July 24, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

Sorry Vaj but this stuff sounds wierd,there seems to be a lot of similar claims about Muktanada.

I am not picking on Muktanada per se but am against such claims being swept under the carpet of tantra or enlightement.

I guess practising common sense and being a decent human being is the highest achivment for me.The only goal worth striving for.

This is from this site:

http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/secret.htm

 

"I don't have sex for the same reason you do: because it feels so good." -Muktananda

 

IN HIS teachings Muktananda put a lot of emphasis on sex - most of it negative. Curbing the sex drive released the kundalini energy that led to enlightenment, he said. The swami himself claimed to be completely celibate.

 

Members of the guru's inner circle, however, say Muktananda regularly had sex with his female devotees. Michael Dinga, an Oakland contractor who was head of construction for the ashram and a trustee of the foundation, said the guru's sexual exploits were common knowledge in the ashram. "It was supposed to be Muktananda's big secret," said Dinga, "but since many of the girls were in their early to middle teens, it was hard to keep it secret."

 

A young woman I am calling "Mary" said the guru seduced her at the main American ashram at South Fallsburg, New York, in 1981. Mary was in her early twenties at the time. Muktananda was 73.

 

At South Fallsburg, Muktananda used to stand behind a curtain in the evening, watching the girls coming back to the dormitory. He asked Mary to come to his bedroom several times, and gave her gifts of money and jewelry. Finally, she did. When he then told her to undress, she was shocked, but she obeyed.

 

"He had a special area which I assume he used for his sexual affairs. It was similar to a gynecologist's table, but without the stirrups." (To his later chagrin, Michael Dinga realized he had built the table himself.) "He didn't have an erection," Mary said, "but he inserted about as much as he could. He was standing up, and his eyes were rolled up to the ceiling. He looked as if he was in some sort of ecstasy." When the session was over, Muktananda ordered the girl to come back the next day, and added, "Don't wear underwear."

 

On the first night, Muktananda had tried to convince Mary she was being initiated into tantric yoga - the yoga of sex. The next night, he didn't bother. "It was like ‘Okay, you're here, take off your clothes. get on the table and let's do it.' Just very straight, hard, cold sex."

 

Mary told two people about what had happened to her. Neither was exactly surprised.

 

Michael's wife Chandra was disturbed. Chandra was probably the most important American in the movement. As head of food services, she saw Muktananda daily, and knew what was going on. "Whoever was in his kitchen was in some way molested," she said. A girl I’ll call "Nina" used to work for Chandra. One day, the guru remarked to her in Hindi, "Sex with Nina is very good." Nina's mother was later made a swami.

 

Chandra said she had rationalized the guru's having sex in the past, but was dismayed to learn it had happened to her young friend Mary. Aware of Muktananda's power over people who were devoted to him, she saw it as a form of rape.

 

The other person Mary confided in was Malti, Muktananda's longtime translator.

 

Mary said Malti wasn't surprised when she told her about being seduced by the aged guru. "She told me people had been coming to her with this for years and years," Mary said. "She was caught in the middle." Malti and her brother, who have taken the names Chidvilasananda and Nityananda, are the movement's new leaders.

 

Another of Muktananda's victims was a woman I'll call "Jennifer." She says Muktananda raped her at the main Indian ashram at Ganeshpuri in the spring of 1978. He ordered Jennifer to come to his bedroom late one night, and told her to take her clothes off. "I was in shock," she said, "but over the years, I had learned you never say no to anything that he asked you to do...."

 

Muktananda had intercourse with Jennifer for an hour, she said, and was quite proud of the fact. "He kept saying, ‘Sixty minutes,’" she said. "He claimed he was using the real Indian positions, not the westernized ones used in America." While he had sex, the guru felt like conversing, but Jennifer found she couldn't say a word. "The main thing he wanted to know was how old I was when I first got my period. I answered something, and he said, ‘That’s good, you're a pure girl.’" Devastated by the event, Jennifer made plans to leave the ashram as soon as possible, but Muktananda continued to be interested in her. "He used to watch me getting undressed through the keyhole," she said. She would open the door and see the guru outside "I became rather scared of him, because he kept coming to my room at night."

 

Both women said the Ganeshpuri ashram was arranged to suit Muktananda's convenience.

 

"He had a secret passageway from his house to the young girls' dormitory," Mary said. "Whoever he was carrying on with, he had switched to that dorm." The guru often visited the girls' dormitory while they were undressing. "He would come up anytime he wanted to" Jennifer said, "and we would just giggle. In the early days, I never thought of him as having sexual desires. He was the guru..." Mary knew otherwise: she talked with at least eight other young girls who had sex with Muktananda. "I knew that he had girls marching in and out of his bedroom all night long," she said.

 

While his followers were renovating a Miami hotel in 1979, Muktananda slept on the women's floor, and ordered that the youngest be put in the rooms closest to his, and the older ones down the hall.

 

"You always knew who he was carrying on with," said Chandra. "They came down the next day with a new gold bracelet or a new pair of earrings." Around the ashram, said Mary, people knew that "anyone who had jewelry was going to his room a lot."

 

For a time, Muktananda's followers found ways to rationalize his behavior. He wasn't really penetrating his victims, they said. Or he wasn't ejaculating - an important distinction to some, since retaining the semen was supposed to be a way of conserving the kundalini energy.'...

 

Well, first of all, Muktananda didn't speak English, so much of these claims made by American women would have to be BS, unless he brought a translator along the entire time or talked to them on a psychic level.

 

See, people have a tendency to just believe dark things, just because it's printed. Why don't people believe the positive things that are printed as easily? No doubt and critical thinking is put to this stuff, but everyone wants to doubt and criticize the positive stuff. Everyone always wants to think that there is something wrong.

 

Also, it's not sweeping under the rug when one contextualizes some of these tantrically. It's actually a practice to elongate an enlightened beings life to engage in sexual tantra with a young women during his later years, and if you have experience in sexual tantra as I do, it's not unbelievable.

 

Also, the secret passageway accusation about the Indian Ashram is absolute BS because his room was surrounded by the meditation cave(room), there is no way there was a secret passageway as I also know the building plans and people who built the Indian Ashram and it's not connected to any of the dorms. No one questions these accusations though, they just read them and go... "Oh... yeah". It wasn't in Muktanandas character to rape women. He also always had people with him, was writing continuously and giving talks continuously, up at every Guru Gita at 5am and to bed at 10pm, so he must have been up all night having sex with young women, then showing up to the regular practices with no sleep? Come on! He definitely was not perfect in the external ideal of it. He had some old world ideas about Gay sex and such. These views are not supported by Gurumayi as there are plenty of Gay people all over the more closer people in SYDA.

 

But, if critical thinking is only going to be applied to the positive stuff and not the negative stuff printed, there is something unbalanced here. A lot of the stuff in that Leaving Siddha Yoga site is absolute BS, like Gurumayi having face lifts and nose jobs, etc. It's just such utter BS it's amazing that people even believe this stuff. But, they don't know better. Gurumayi obviously doesn't have any face work done because the signs of menopause are revealed on her face, with the slight sagging of her skin on her newer photos.

 

suninmyeyes,

 

I'm sorry that you went to that site, read stuff and just believed it without research. I grew up in Siddha Yoga and of course have come across much of these accusations throughout my life. But, I did research and I know many older people very deep in the organization, translators for Muktananda from both India to the US, also attendants of Muktananda. I'm sorry, but much of the information of the LSY site is BS and much else are just circumstances pulled out of context. Or just people contextualizing the teachings in a way that suits their pre-conceptions revolving around fear of cult mentality.

 

I did leave Siddha Yoga about 5 years ago, but not because of this stuff. I left because I feel I've found a deeper path and philosophy in Buddhism and Dzogchen. Luckily I don't have to deal with people throwing crap in my face concerning ChNNR because he isn't a monk, is married with kids, there just isn't these conspiracy theories about him as there are about SYDA. Which is a nice thing.

 

But, I am still astounded over and over again at how people believe these negative things about some great beings without critical thinking or research. But, if all that crap on the LSY site is true? Whatever, yeah right. Muktananda was a powerhouse of love and compassion and worked tirelessly for people introducing endless people to their own nature and offering practices for sustained realization. He also never said that, "I am the one godman." He taught others how to give shaktipat, and he also said to plenty of people that they should go practice Buddhism with this Vajrayana master or that one. He even did a retreat in Colorado with the last Karmapa. He was friends with many little known and some well known Indian Masters who visited him regularly in India. It's just really silly to think that these accusations could even be true considering he didn't speak English and his room wasn't even connected to the dorms, neither in India or in his South Fallsburg, Ashram. Also in the Oakland Ashram the Guru's room is separated from all the other rooms.

 

It just doesn't jive.

 

p.s. I've also talked with Pendragon online. The person is crazy and can't field any criticism of the information listed on the site. People do have a tendency to be crazy and over zealous. What to do?

Edited July 25, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Then I read this and it settles it for me. No way was he anything but a sexual predator. He should have been jailed for life.

 

See, easily believed, because it was printed, without doing any research.

 

People want money. Look at the accusations that Michael Jackson had to field with made up accusations done for the sake of getting money from him, through settling out of court. I don't believe Michael was a sexual predator, he just didn't experience a childhood and lived it out vicariously through the kids. Famous people know that things will be believed just because they are rumored to be true, so they settle out of court in order to avoid court fees and court record and name mud dragging.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[mYTHmAKER]

Well, first of all, Muktananda didn't speak English, so much of these claims made by American women would have to be BS, unless he brought a translator along the entire time or talked to them on a psychic level.

 

That's correct he didn't speak fluent english and always gave talks through translators.

However he understood more than he let on.

Think about it - anyone coming to a foreign country, not speaking the language, spending time among native speakers does learn rudimentary understanding of the language and is able to express themselves as in yes - no - food - water - girl- boy - sex.

i know someone who married one of the gopis and it is true - not made up.

[goldisheavy]

Orb,

 

When I read your link, I found the show mentioned in the article.

 

Here's a link to one of the clips from the show. I think the woman in the clip is right about a lot of things and people should pay attention to what she says.

 

I'm going to watch other clips. The clips can be activated on the lower portion of the page, under the main video clip window.

 

EDIT: Here's an interview with Stephen Batchelor on the same topic. I found this interview to be very insightful.

Edited July 25, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Gerard]

Religion is not the problem, human mind is, and above all: IGNORANCE.

[Vajrahridaya]

That's correct he didn't speak fluent english and always gave talks through translators.

However he understood more than he let on.

Think about it - anyone coming to a foreign country, not speaking the language, spending time among native speakers does learn rudimentary understanding of the language and is able to express themselves as in yes - no - food - water - girl- boy - sex.

i know someone who married one of the gopis and it is true - not made up.

 

Still, lot's of BS in these accusations. I've done plenty of research, thus I know I'm right. Which is enough for me.

[goldisheavy]

Religion is not the problem, human mind is, and above all: IGNORANCE.

 

Religion is born of ignorance. If everyone was enlightened there would be no religion, no preachers and no one to preach to. Furthermore, no one would be scared of anything. People would be fearless, and thus a major avenue of control used by organized religion, fear mongering, would be out of question.

[mYTHmAKER]

Still, lot's of BS in these accusations. I've done plenty of research, thus I know I'm right. Which is enough for me.

 

Why would so many people go out of their way to say they were molested.

Certainly not a popularity contest.

One girls mother wouldn't believe her daughter - took the gurus side -

they didn't speak for many years until the mother, a devotee, accepted the truth.

Now nothing is black and white - we weren't cute enough to be molested (and male)

so we can't know 100% - but be open minded and you will know the truth.

Perhaps if we had followed Sai Baba being male we would have the experience and know for sure

[Vajrahridaya]

Religion is born of ignorance. If everyone was enlightened there would be no religion, no preachers and no one to preach to.

 

That's true.

[Vajrahridaya]

Why would so many people go out of their way to say they were molested.

Certainly not a popularity contest.

One girls mother wouldn't believe her daughter - took the gurus side -

they didn't speak for many years until the mother, a devotee, accepted the truth.

Now nothing is black and white - we weren't cute enough to be molested (and male)

so we can't know 100% - but be open minded and you will know the truth.

Perhaps if we had followed Sai Baba being male we would have the experience and know for sure

 

It's not really that many people. Plus how they say it happened has been debunked. Muktanandas room in Ganeshpuri does not have a secret passageway. If it did, it would have to be dug underground, under the courtyard, into a hole on the floor in a closet or something in the womens dorms.

 

There are just too many inconsistencies. Plus, like I said, Muktananda was publicly seen at every single Guru Gita in the morning, which is every single day of the week at 5am, plus sometimes early enough to be at the morning arati which is at 3:30am and was seen in public until 9 to 10pm or later every single night. So, either he didn't sleep giving him time to do shady things at night, making him some sort of powerful demon or the information is corrupt to begin with. Demons don't give off as much power of love and light that he did. He wasn't merely charming, he was actually palpably powerful with positive energy where people who knew nothing of kundalini and nothing of spirituality would go into deep states of meditation, experience deepened states of awareness in his presence, over and over again.

 

Long ago in the 70's Muktananda did say of Afro Sai Baba that he was a fake when meeting him. He even snuck up behind him in public and a picture was taken, he then said that Sai Baba would have known who was sneaking up behind him if he was as high up as he claimed to be. I even have that power to see things beyond the eyes, and detect people behind me and I'm a nobody. Muktanandas Guru, Nityananda was incredible as well and there's lots of BS about how he wasn't a real devotee of Nityananda when I knew a couple of devotees who were devotees of Nitayananda, Muktananda and then Gurumayi who said that Nityananda told them to go to Muktananda.

 

There are just too many inconsistencies between what I know to be true and what is just printed on that site. Plus, like I said, I talked to Pendragon, the starter of that site and the person is nuts and came across as a paranoid schizophrenic. That's my unprofessional opinion, but I do have knowledge in that field.

 

p.s. I do think SYDA is a bit creepy though and is too expensive! Another reason why I had to leave. Not as expensive as many other groups and when I was young they worked on a sliding scale making everything very inexpensive for me until the age of 24, but still. 500 dollars for a weekend long intensive, it does include 3 meals, or used to but I don't think it does anymore? I think they are down to one day as well and you don't get free room and board anymore like you used to with the price? It's just crazy. Gurumayi has mentioned that SYDA does it's own thing and she's tried to make them lower the prices, but they don't listen to her.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Apech]

Orb,

 

When I read your link, I found the show mentioned in the article.

 

Here's a link to one of the clips from the show. I think the woman in the clip is right about a lot of things and people should pay attention to what she says.

 

I'm going to watch other clips. The clips can be activated on the lower portion of the page, under the main video clip window.

 

EDIT: Here's an interview with Stephen Batchelor on the same topic. I found this interview to be very insightful.

 

Excellent interview ... but she's wrong on one point ... denigration of women is a Root Downfall (might be number 14 not sure) and thus a breach of samaya vows no matter what Tibetan culture generally might say about women for a tantrika it is not ok to regard women as second class beings or whatever.

 

Here they are:

1. Contradicting one’s Guru or Lama.

 

2. Contradicting or denigrating the teachings of the Buddha or one’s Guru (Lama).

 

3. Quarreling with others on the same path.

 

4. Violating the Bodhisattva vows (in action, word or thought).

 

5. Violating the sacred drops in the heart chakra through illicit sexual activity.

 

6. Denigrating the teachings and paths of other systems.

 

7. Revealing secrets to non-initiates or those not ready to receive them.

 

8. Viewing the five aggregates that compose the psycho-physical continuum as impure.

 

9. Doubting one’s entrance into the path.

 

10. Having the ability to perceive the mental continuum of others and recognizing that someone in particular will commit great harm to others and not taking action.

 

11. Holding either of the extremist views of permanence or nihilism.

 

12. Refusing to teach someone who asks for teachings and is qualified to receive those teachings.

 

13. Superficial or dualistic clinging to appearances of pure/impure, good/bad etc.

 

14. Verbally or mentally denigrating women.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Apech
copied downfalls from another site

[goldisheavy]

Excellent interview ... but she's wrong on one point ... denigration of women is a Root Downfall (might be number 14 not sure) and thus a breach of samaya vows no matter what Tibetan culture generally might say about women for a tantrika it is not ok to regard women as second class beings or whatever.

 

I have two questions:

 

1. When exactly in the interview does she say something to the contrary? I will watch the interview at the precise minute and second to try to understand what you're talking about.

 

2. Are you making a distinction between the ideal case and what actually happens in real life (theory vs practice)? Are we discussing how things ought to happen or how they actually tend to happen?

Edited July 25, 2011 by goldisheavy

[suninmyeyes]

Well, first of all, Muktananda didn't speak English, so much of these claims made by American women would have to be BS, unless he brought a translator along the entire time or talked to them on a psychic level.

 

See, people have a tendency to just believe dark things, just because it's printed. Why don't people believe the positive things that are printed as easily? No doubt and critical thinking is put to this stuff, but everyone wants to doubt and criticize the positive stuff. Everyone always wants to think that there is something wrong.

 

Also, it's not sweeping under the rug when one contextualizes some of these tantrically. It's actually a practice to elongate an enlightened beings life to engage in sexual tantra with a young women during his later years, and if you have experience in sexual tantra as I do, it's not unbelievable.

 

Also, the secret passageway accusation about the Indian Ashram is absolute BS because his room was surrounded by the meditation cave(room), there is no way there was a secret passageway as I also know the building plans and people who built the Indian Ashram and it's not connected to any of the dorms. No one questions these accusations though, they just read them and go... "Oh... yeah". It wasn't in Muktanandas character to rape women. He also always had people with him, was writing continuously and giving talks continuously, up at every Guru Gita at 5am and to bed at 10pm, so he must have been up all night having sex with young women, then showing up to the regular practices with no sleep? Come on! He definitely was not perfect in the external ideal of it. He had some old world ideas about Gay sex and such. These views are not supported by Gurumayi as there are plenty of Gay people all over the more closer people in SYDA.

 

But, if critical thinking is only going to be applied to the positive stuff and not the negative stuff printed, there is something unbalanced here. A lot of the stuff in that Leaving Siddha Yoga site is absolute BS, like Gurumayi having face lifts and nose jobs, etc. It's just such utter BS it's amazing that people even believe this stuff. But, they don't know better. Gurumayi obviously doesn't have any face work done because the signs of menopause are revealed on her face, with the slight sagging of her skin on her newer photos.

 

suninmyeyes,

 

I'm sorry that you went to that site, read stuff and just believed it without research. I grew up in Siddha Yoga and of course have come across much of these accusations throughout my life. But, I did research and I know many older people very deep in the organization, translators for Muktananda from both India to the US, also attendants of Muktananda. I'm sorry, but much of the information of the LSY site is BS and much else are just circumstances pulled out of context. Or just people contextualizing the teachings in a way that suits their pre-conceptions revolving around fear of cult mentality.

 

I did leave Siddha Yoga about 5 years ago, but not because of this stuff. I left because I feel I've found a deeper path and philosophy in Buddhism and Dzogchen. Luckily I don't have to deal with people throwing crap in my face concerning ChNNR because he isn't a monk, is married with kids, there just isn't these conspiracy theories about him as there are about SYDA. Which is a nice thing.

 

But, I am still astounded over and over again at how people believe these negative things about some great beings without critical thinking or research. But, if all that crap on the LSY site is true? Whatever, yeah right. Muktananda was a powerhouse of love and compassion and worked tirelessly for people introducing endless people to their own nature and offering practices for sustained realization. He also never said that, "I am the one godman." He taught others how to give shaktipat, and he also said to plenty of people that they should go practice Buddhism with this Vajrayana master or that one. He even did a retreat in Colorado with the last Karmapa. He was friends with many little known and some well known Indian Masters who visited him regularly in India. It's just really silly to think that these accusations could even be true considering he didn't speak English and his room wasn't even connected to the dorms, neither in India or in his South Fallsburg, Ashram. Also in the Oakland Ashram the Guru's room is separated from all the other rooms.

 

It just doesn't jive.

 

p.s. I've also talked with Pendragon online. The person is crazy and can't field any criticism of the information listed on the site. People do have a tendency to be crazy and over zealous. What to do?

Dont know Vaj,who can tell these things ,if they are true or not true.Neither of can for sure.

Suspicion and cautioness can be good.

I am certanly glad that there is all sort of information true and untrue ,right or wrong out there becouse it will make more people stand on their own two feet and learn to be responsible for themselves and others.

I have seen people in your position who have very close relationship with the spiritual organisation being even more blind than the onlookers(including my own family).

I have also vitnessed most idiotic types of behaviour (whilst on the road in Asia and staying at monastries and ashrams) ,strange exibithion of spirituality and attitudes verging on being totally bonkers-all in the name of organisation or guru/spiritual leader.And have met women who have been abused by gurus and left deeply scarred.

Also I came across some wonderful mature people doing just fine learning with their gurus/teachers.

Your expirience is valid to you ,I can only aprriciate it and take in consideration as I do with everything else.

[markern]

See, easily believed, because it was printed, without doing any research.

 

People want money. Look at the accusations that Michael Jackson had to field with made up accusations done for the sake of getting money from him, through settling out of court. I don't believe Michael was a sexual predator, he just didn't experience a childhood and lived it out vicariously through the kids. Famous people know that things will be believed just because they are rumored to be true, so they settle out of court in order to avoid court fees and court record and name mud dragging.

 

It is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of testimony. It would mean 50 girls or so deceided they wanted to make money out of false sex/rape/statutory rape charges. THat is extremely improbably.

 

A normal unenlightened therapist is punished hard for sleeping with patients, even adult ones. Not holding a spiritual teacher to the same standard is ridiculous.

[Vajrahridaya]

Dont know Vaj,who can tell these things ,if they are true or not true.Neither of can for sure.

Suspicion and cautioness can be good.

I am certanly glad that there is all sort of information true and untrue ,right or wrong out there becouse it will make more people stand on their own two feet and learn to be responsible for themselves and others.

I have seen people in your position who have very close relationship with the spiritual organisation being even more blind than the onlookers(including my own family).

I have also vitnessed most idiotic types of behaviour (whilst on the road in Asia and staying at monastries and ashrams) ,strange exibithion of spirituality and attitudes verging on being totally bonkers-all in the name of organisation or guru/spiritual leader.And have met women who have been abused by gurus and left deeply scarred.

Also I came across some wonderful mature people doing just fine learning with their gurus/teachers.

Your expirience is valid to you ,I can only aprriciate it and take in consideration as I do with everything else.

 

Yes, the thing is, is that it might just be my karma, but I've only met people who were healed through the path. Professionals, as well as people who might have gone down the wrong road or were down the wrong road, completely turned around by the path. I've not met anyone exhibiting cult like behavior. At least those that I befriended. So yeah, none of this stuff makes sense. Swami Muktananda was a fan of critical thinking and Gurumayi has even said not to follow her teachings just because she said them, but to weigh them on the scale of personal experience and honest investigation. She has said that verbatim. If one reads the teachings of Muktananda and Gurumayi, there isn't this cult like teaching, it's all about finding "god" within. Everything they've said and I've read tons of material, revolves around that end. Teaching people to be independent light givers, realizing their internal connection to all beings and things. I've met some really enlightened Siddha Yogi's, my Mom included. This whole idea that they are all rich and models is silly too, very unfounded. That website is some biased, one sided overzealous bs, in my experience and I'm not even involved in SY marga anymore. So, for someone who's researched the accusations, only seen the positive, experienced the positive, except for some things that SYDA does, with red tape and having raised prices over the years, it's just completely inconsistent.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

It is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of testimony. It would mean 50 girls or so deceided they wanted to make money out of false sex/rape/statutory rape charges. THat is extremely improbably.

 

A normal unenlightened therapist is punished hard for sleeping with patients, even adult ones. Not holding a spiritual teacher to the same standard is ridiculous.

 

50 girls? I just don't see it. The guy must never have slept. Then to effect people the way that he did? Come on, it doesn't make sense. He would rape girls, then people would experience deep states of meditation around him to the degree and with such power that they did? Even in the way's they say it happened, it's not possible with secret doors and such. Once again, you believe it just because it was written. There are far more positive testimonies. But, believe what you want. I've done research with open honesty, really wanting to know, it doesn't jive.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[markern]

50 girls? I just don't see it. The guy must never have slept. Then to effect people the way that he did? Come on, it doesn't make sense. He would rape girls, then people would experience deep states of meditation around him to the degree and with such power that they did? Even in the way's they say it happened, it's not possible with secret doors and such. Once again, you believe it just because it was written. There are far more positive testimonies. But, believe what you want. I've done research with open honesty, really wanting to know, it doesn't jive.

 

I am buying it because so MANY claim it. I know people that has provenly been falsely accused of rape so I don`t have a problem discarding one or a few claims but this is a LOT.

[Simple_Jack]

I don't agree with the comparison among the Mahasiddhas, the Zen patriarch, and Sogyal. The Mahasiddhas were mostly ascetics who took in willing consorts or went to the brothels to practice sexual tantra. In fact, only a very handful of the 84 Mahasiddhas practiced that form of tantra in the first place. As for the Zen patriarch, he had already left his responsibilities and place in society and became a wandering ascetic.

 

Sogyal on the other hand is very aware that he should be the head of the efforts to assimilate Buddhism into the West. He knows that he had power over these women and abused them when they were most vulnerable and looking for a guide. They weren't hookers or willing consorts.

 

He is a leading scholar and a goddamn monk who heads other monks. If indeed he benefited these women truly through his powers they would not call him an abusive little twat. Stuff like this disgusting and shows no matter how much Buddhist lingo you can juggle, it doesn't matter if you don't put it into practice.

Woah, hey there buddy...This post in no way was referring to Sogyal and the incident he's involved in.

 

This post was in response to Twinner's post, about the book on the Zen monks. My fault on not specifying. Regard my post as an off-topic post.

[Apech]

I have two questions:

 

1. When exactly in the interview does she say something to the contrary? I will watch the interview at the precise minute and second to try to understand what you're talking about.

 

2. Are you making a distinction between the ideal case and what actually happens in real life (theory vs practice)? Are we discussing how things ought to happen or how they actually tend to happen?

 

Hi,

 

I don't want to watch it again but she says something like part of the problem was the place of women in trad Tibetan culture. My only point is that while this may be the case (that women were second class citizens) this view is specifically prohibited for those practicing tantra. So if a lama had this opinion of women they were already breaking their samaya.

 

Perhaps the lama may have thought that in fancying and shagging young western women he was not denigrating them I don't know.

 

For me the root is not the sex scandals which I don't actually care about much but the whole misunderstanding of the lama/guru thing. If the guru does anything they point out one's true nature and the true nature of reality for you. That is by being realised themselves they give you an external example (is that the right word) to resonate with ... so that you can benefit by getting closer to your own true nature. They don't give you anything because you already have it. So it is not necessary to suspend all caution and rationality ... in fact that would be a denial of your own buddha-nature. EVEN IF you regard your teacher as a Buddha you do not approach them in a gormless and naive way. You owe it to them and to yourself to keep your eyes open and your wits about you. If they try to pull the wool over your eyes and to act otherwise then pack up your cushion and move on.