Are all the religions equally corrupt?

[Lucky7Strikes]

This doesn't only happen in the West either, but Tantrics have a long history of acting outside of the puritanical fold of spirituality.

True tantric abilities do not even require a person to touch one another.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Sogyal Rinpoche is not a monk.

Technically maybe not. But why is that even important? He heads a religious community that advocates compassion and right conduct that includes monks. He writes books and teaches millions of people under the banner of "Buddhism." If he is going to demonstrate the right use of tantric abilities and sexual techniques, just jumping on 21 year old western students surely cannot be the way? If he wants to do that maybe he should stop being a high lama, so that people don't put him on a throne and automatically assume he is some realized being and hang their practice on every word he utters?

 

I'm sorry if I sound too self righteous or harsh. I like reading Sogyal rinpoche's or kalu rinpoche's works. But when I read stuff like this, I can't help but think all the high sounding vocabulary spread across hundreds of pages don't mean much.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Jetsun]

A number of different women have felt taken advantage of by him, you can't dismiss their feelings just because the guru might have some wisdom. If you ask me using Tibetan guru yoga where you are meant to worship the guru like he is the Buddha himself and combining that with sexual tantra techniques in a country like the US is begging for a lawsuit. Any psychologist will tell you that many of the people who go to the guru will be looking for a father figure to heal childhood wounds and when the father figure shows their attentions to another person rejection and anger will rear up and the lawsuits will come piling in. Or maybe he is just plain using these women for his own ends and masking it in all the Buddhist trappings.

[Vajrahridaya]

Pretending to be a spiritual guide and using his position to exploit young women is not "having fun." That's not celebration. He has a responsibility as a leading member of an organization that advocates right sexual conduct and compassion. Baiting others into your room and jumping on them in the name of some tantric path the other person is not ready or unaware of is... If he knows about the West's sensitivity to sexual misconduct in religious organizations, the more cautious he should have been.

 

Ok, so let's say he is not a monk. Who cares? Same power exploitation. Sogyal isn't the only one reported to have been exploiting Western women. Kalu rinpoche also has some shady background.

 

You weren't there and so you don't have an objective view on what really happened, it's just hear say. Who knows, maybe all the accusations are absolutely accurate and without any subjective bias and are with complete objective validity? But, I doubt it.

[Vajrahridaya]

A number of different women have felt taken advantage of by him, you can't dismiss their feelings just because the guru might have some wisdom. If you ask me using Tibetan guru yoga where you are meant to worship the guru like he is the Buddha himself and combining that with sexual tantra techniques in a country like the US is begging for a lawsuit. Any psychologist will tell you that many of the people who go to the guru will be looking for a father figure to heal childhood wounds and when the father figure shows their attentions to another person rejection and anger will rear up and the lawsuits will come piling in. Or maybe he is just plain using these women for his own ends and masking it in all the Buddhist trappings.

 

I don't know either way as I don't know the persons personally. All too often accusations are deemed fact simply due to the fact that they were stated and rumored to be true and the complete story is never given any light.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

True tantric abilities do not even require a person to touch one another.

 

Sometimes they do.

[C T]

Technically maybe not. But why is that even important? He heads a religious community that advocates compassion and right conduct that includes monks. He writes books and teaches millions of people under the banner of "Buddhism." If he is going to demonstrate the right use of tantric abilities and sexual techniques, just jumping on 21 year old western students surely cannot be the way? If he wants to do that maybe he should stop being a high lama, so that people don't put him on a throne and automatically assume he is some realized being and hang their practice on every word he utters?

 

I'm sorry if I sound too self righteous or harsh. I like reading Sogyal rinpoche's or kalu rinpoche's works. But when I read stuff like this, I can't help but think all the high sounding vocabulary spread across hundreds of pages don't mean much.

Well... all i want to say is - If you think your respect have been compromised, then you ought to sever whatever idealistic notions you have harbored regarding this man, and dump whatever books of his that you may have. Just drop everything. Can you do it? Be without any opinion? Right now?

 

At the end of the day, its not what another person does or not do, its what we carry inside that matters.

 

All i can say is that there could be factors involved which we are not privy to at this point in time, hence to form judgements based on one news report surely says a lot about our own level of openness. Not that we should be so open as to turn a blind eye to stupid behaviors, regardless of position. Merely being open enough not to close our minds before the man himself admits to the transgression. If he had really been abusive, but pretend and carry on otherwise, then its his loss. Ultimately. Its his ball and chain.

[Lucky7Strikes]

You weren't there and so you don't have an objective view on what really happened, it's just hear say. Who knows, maybe all the accusations are absolutely accurate and without any subjective bias and are with complete objective validity? But, I doubt it.

There is not just a claim by one person, but many who are willing enough to share their views on camera. The case was also settled outside of court. If Sogyal felt that he was betrayed or taken advantage of, why not go through the justice system for the sake of his organization and religion? It's not a matter of them being perfectly accurate or not, the fact that you raise suspicions of promiscuity as a head of an organization such as his is a red flag.

 

Also this is unrelated, but I always found is incredibly confusing that Chogyam Trungpa chose Osel Tenzin as his successor who willingly had sex with students (among certain claims of rape) knowing he had contracted HIV. What kind of compassion is that? So they'll be born in higher realms?

Edited July 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

If he had really been abusive, but pretend and carry on otherwise, then its his loss. Ultimately. Its his ball and chain.

I disagree. That's not just his loss. That's a loss to everyone in his organization who take him as a refuge and a teacher and Buddhism in the West in general.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Sometimes they do.

And sometimes they don't. So why not use techniques that you don't? Especially when you are aware that your actions could lead to greater controversy?

Edited July 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

There is not just a claim by one person, but many who are willing enough to share their views on camera. The case was also settled outside of court. If Sogyal felt that he was betrayed or taken advantage of, why not go through the justice system for the sake of his organization and religion? It's not a matter of them being perfectly accurate or not, the fact that you raise suspicions of promiscuity as a head of an organization such as his is a red flag.

 

The judicial system in these cases does nothing for people accused of such things, even if it's done on an erroneous premise, not that it necessarily was. But, to settle out of court and not drag his name through the system when he probably couldn't procure any real truth anyway, would just be unwise. I don't know if you know much about our judicial system, but a good lawyer can turn a wrong accusation into a million dollars just through such threats and settle it out of court.

 

It's far from a perfect system. There are many ways one can look at this and of course it's a red flag, I'm not saying that it isn't, but I was never under the impression that Sogyal Rinpoche was perfect either.

 

Also this is unrelated, but I always found is incredibly confusing that Chogyam Trungpa chose Osel Tenzin as his successor who willingly had sex with students (among certain claims of rape) knowing he had contracted HIV. What kind of compassion is that? So they'll be born in higher realms?

 

Yes, that confused me as well. I have no idea. Thus I try not to formulate one. Chogyam Trungpa obviously did many great things for many, many people as well.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

And sometimes they don't. So why not use techniques that you don't? Especially when you are aware that your actions could lead to greater controversy?

 

Because the contact can lead to a longer life for the Lama and there are many tantric texts on this subject.

 

Also, to expect absolute selflessness from an individual is unwise. People, even highly experienced yogi's need the physical contact, intimacy and pleasure of the body, and this can also be very healthy if not done in excess or from the inner place of uncontrollable craving.

[C T]

I disagree. That's not just his loss. That's a loss to everyone in his organization who take him as a refuge and a teacher and Buddhism in the West in general.

Ultimately it is. Whoever wants to carry another's ball and chain as well, then yeah, you are right - its their loss too.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I don't know it just sucks. Having been around spiritual communities and students I know and have seen the type of women who could easily be taken advantage of with fancy claims to some awakening or wisdom. I can vouche for this on experience that people become attracted to others because they are put on spiritual pedestals, a "savior mentality" of sorts. Those women are usually people with troubled pasts and most vulnerable. It's just not a healthy relationship.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[deci belle]

Cloisters are hot-beds of iniquity~ from an ancient Chinese buddhist treatise. I conclude that is is people who become corrupt. Religions don't have the ability to act, arbitrarily or otherwise.

 

I thought it was Chogyam himself who was HIV+… it doesn't matter really. He helped many many more people than he hurt, if that was the case. Hope I can say that about myself someday!❤

Edited July 24, 2011 by deci belle

[C T]

I don't know it just sucks. Having been around spiritual communities and students I know the type of women who could easily be taken advantage of with fancy claims to some awakening or wisdom. In my experience those women who are serious are usually people with troubled pasts and vulnerable.

Of course it sucks. If indeed SR is guilty, then its him who will suck hardest. Even if he is not the instigator, he is sucked. Loser both ways. His sucking karma...

[Apech]

I can claim to have met Sogyal Rinpoche in my friends flat in Manchester in 1973 (probably) ... he would have been at Cambridge doing comparative religion I guess. We were so disrespectful that we called him Soggy Old Rinpoche (we had no idea how to pronounce Tibetan names).

 

I read his book years later of course and saw him give a talk ... also that bloody awful film he was in ... Little Buddha was it? Anyway I would say he is far from being a great master but of course that's my op.

 

He likes to sleep with a lot of women .. so what? Some of those women feel used ... again ... not surprised. Its kiss and tell almost ... happens to politicians, rock stars, business men, sportsmen ... so again ... so what?

 

Its all rubbish lets get on with our practice.

[Vajrahridaya]

I can claim to have met Sogyal Rinpoche in my friends flat in Manchester in 1973 (probably) ... he would have been at Cambridge doing comparative religion I guess. We were so disrespectful that we called him Soggy Old Rinpoche (we had no idea how to pronounce Tibetan names).

 

I read his book years later of course and saw him give a talk ... also that bloody awful film he was in ... Little Buddha was it? Anyway I would say he is far from being a great master but of course that's my op.

 

He likes to sleep with a lot of women .. so what? Some of those women feel used ... again ... not surprised. Its kiss and tell almost ... happens to politicians, rock stars, business men, sportsmen ... so again ... so what?

 

Its all rubbish lets get on with our practice.

 

LOL! Cool.

 

p.s. This is how I felt about the accusations laid out against my Hindu guru's. I thought, "What does this have to do with my personal ability to realize the teachings?" I just kept on with my practice knowing that perfection is a state of mind and intention, not so much a state of body and there is no real way for me to decipher another persons deep intentions in their actions, especially when it comes to spirituality which opens up a deeper dimension for criteria in reference to the inner activity of intention.

 

It's just the whole, you can't always judge a book by it's cover cliche.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Of course it sucks. If indeed SR is guilty, then its him who will suck hardest. Even if he is not the instigator, he is sucked. Loser both ways. His sucking karma...

 

I'm sure it goes without saying that he got sucked, both literally and figuratively into a pool of sucky karma.

[orb]

I can claim to have met Sogyal Rinpoche in my friends flat in Manchester in 1973 (probably) ... he would have been at Cambridge doing comparative religion I guess. We were so disrespectful that we called him Soggy Old Rinpoche (we had no idea how to pronounce Tibetan names).

 

I read his book years later of course and saw him give a talk ... also that bloody awful film he was in ... Little Buddha was it? Anyway I would say he is far from being a great master but of course that's my op.

 

He likes to sleep with a lot of women .. so what? Some of those women feel used ... again ... not surprised. Its kiss and tell almost ... happens to politicians, rock stars, business men, sportsmen ... so again ... so what?

 

Its all rubbish lets get on with our practice.

 

Cmmon now, how can u compare and old tradition like that to a miserable life of a rock star or a politician and you are saying lets get on with our practice ? Practice what ? Your imaginary Dantien?

 

You need a real teacher in order to learn anything (because a lot of serious mistakes can be made) and the best way of teaching is by example. And what if your teacher turns out to be a weak, pathetic useless jerk off who just knows the theory and can give a speech but in reality has the level of being of a hookworm?

 

Wouldn't that concern you at all if you found out?

 

These monks (or whatever they are) were supposed to carry the sacred flame and instead they "vaginalized" the most pure aspect of humanity.

 

IMO they should have to pay somehow and never be allowed to represent a certain tradition (or any tradition for that matter)

[Apech]

Cmmon now, how can u compare and old tradition like that to a miserable life of a rock star or a politician and you are saying lets get on with our practice ? Practice what ? Your imaginary Dantien?

 

You need a real teacher in order to learn anything (because a lot of serious mistakes can be made) and the best way of teaching is by example. And what if your teacher turns out to be a weak, pathetic useless jerk off who just knows the theory and can give a speech but in reality has the level of being of a hookworm?

 

Wouldn't that concern you at all if you found out?

 

These monks (or whatever they are) were supposed to carry the sacred flame and instead they "vaginalized" the most pure aspect of humanity.

 

IMO they should have to pay somehow and never be allowed to represent a certain tradition (or any tradition for that matter)

 

Complicated area I think. I have had good teachers and none of them was him. I don't have a teacher currently and I wouldn't particularly look for one - I just practice see what happens.

 

The guru thing is very confusing because I think it has a cultural base which is foreign in the west. My best teacher wouldn't go near that kind of thing but still managed to inspire great respect and love naturally. As an individual you cannot absolve responsibility for what you get into. If your teacher turns out to be a charleton (can't spell that word) then you have to deal with that.

 

I can't think of a religion in the world that has not had sex scandals. This is because they involve people. Some people think its about joining a religion ... this makes you something or somebody ... it doesn't its just you with another tag.

[Vajrahridaya]

Cmmon now, how can u compare and old tradition like that to a miserable life of a rock star or a politician and you are saying lets get on with our practice ? Practice what ? Your imaginary Dantien?

 

You need a real teacher in order to learn anything (because a lot of serious mistakes can be made) and the best way of teaching is by example. And what if your teacher turns out to be a weak, pathetic useless jerk off who just knows the theory and can give a speech but in reality has the level of being of a hookworm?

 

Wouldn't that concern you at all if you found out?

 

These monks (or whatever they are) were supposed to carry the sacred flame and instead they "vaginalized" the most pure aspect of humanity.

 

IMO they should have to pay somehow and never be allowed to represent a certain tradition (or any tradition for that matter)

 

Some people do things from a state of mind that is not the same as what you would do the same thing for. Some great teachers who were involved in Sex scandals were quite perfect in other areas of their life and did carry the flame, but in other areas of life? Well sometimes we just don't know and are judging too harshly with very little information or just tabloid blow ups that don't cover the details. Either that, or in that area of that persons life, they are just lacking for whatever reason. Individuals are complicated beings and fundamentalist ideals of perfection can be pretty unhealthy and unwise to hold onto in the long run.

 

I personally forgive Sogyal Rinpoche, and also, karma is a reality and if he did anything to purposefully hurt anyone, that will come around.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Complicated area I think.

 

Yup.

[rex]

I can claim to have met Sogyal Rinpoche ... We were so disrespectful that we called him Soggy Old Rinpoche (we had no idea how to pronounce Tibetan names). ... Anyway I would say he is far from being a great master but of course that's my op.

Maybe he was being humble and you and your companions just didn't appreciate him anyway?

 

Its all rubbish lets get on with our practice.

Yes!

[Vajrahridaya]

At the same time, there is something to be said about life elongation through sexual contact with the young, if you're tantrically open that is. My mother is a tantrica and does this, she has a PHD in women's' art and spirituality mostly reflected in Indian paradigms of Tantric females and arts. She is a deeply energetic 68 year old. Quite vigorous, both teaching on a University level and selling art and antiques due to her deep knowledge of art history. Swami Muktananda remained celibate for many decades until his later years, and I think elongated his life through sexual contact with some youth. I can experience this viscerally myself and I'm still only 36.

 

This paradigm of thought is reflected in various Tantric scriptures too. They talk about sharing of energies, the older master injects wisdom and receives youth.

 

I don't know if this is the case with Sogyal as there seems to be too many complaints. But with Swami Muktananda, the women said he wouldn't even ejaculate and at times wouldn't even get erect and at times would share various Tantric texts with the women and at other times not. Possibly knowing they were not ready to even understand it? None of them said they were abused, and he was vigorously still meeting people, giving teachings and writing books. But there are very detailed sexual tantric texts in the Shaivite tradition of which he was an adherent.

 

At the same time, I don't know directly what these people were thinking or intending in these sexual connections. But seriously, there are texts that talk about this and I can understand their meaning viscerally, on a personal level. So... eh. I hold back my over damning judgments. These women might have gotten together and said, "Let's make some money!" Who here knows directly??

 

Just keep at your self evaluation of personal intentions.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Vajrahridaya