Three Kinds of Spiritual Teachings.

[doc benway]

Great posts Seth - your taxonomy of spiritual traditions is insightful and interesting.

 

Anyone who feels that Christianity does not offer a path to liberation and has an open mind should familiarize themselves with the works of Father Anthony Demello - an Indian Jesuit psychotherapist. After listening and reading his works, I finally saw the truth through Christian scripture for the first time and I'm not, nor have I ever been Christian. But I understood how the mystics interpret them and access truth through them. I then learned that the present pope banned all of Demello's works as heresy while in his capacity as official censor for the Catholic church.

Most religions have value in their mystical traditions. Unfortunately, nothing is safe from human corruption and exploitation.

 

Regarding some of Vmarco's comments on faith and belief, there is an alternative way to look at it. With respect to most knowledge, there is a possibility for the mind to know things. When approaching the spiritual, it is important to ask ourselves whether or not it is possible to know. The mind is finite and composed of it's contents. The mind can never know what is beyond itself because then that would be part of the known. So there is a realm beyond mind, beyond knowing. I agree that it is unhelpful to replace that un-knowable with belief, that is, a gratuitous assertion of what is the nature of the un-knowable. This is where I define faith differently.

 

Belief is the fervent hope that a gratuitous assertion explains the un-knowable.

Faith is not having confidence that a belief is true, in my lexicon.

Faith is the confidence that when all belief is abandoned, what remains is what is.

It can give us the confidence to open ourselves to pure being and "experience" beyond mind and knowing. I believe I picked this up from Osho so you should be familiar with this Vmarco - it was probably from one of his Zhuang Zi books though I'm not certain.

[Vmarco]

[Informer]

 

 

Can you see how ridiculous the absolutism in your sentences makes you sound?

 

 

Can you?

[Informer]

*sarcasm* Yeah I agree, lets divide up spirituality some more, so we can have more seperations and divisions.

 

What good it does everyone is non, it only benefits the agenda of division.

 

How about instead of being so vehement about differences we find the similarites and altering perspective that are assimilateable, to achieve an understanding.

[Vmarco]

[doc benway]

The Bible says, "FAITH is the substance of things hoped for..."

 

We know (cerebral knowledge) that faith is defined as an unquestioning acceptance of things in the absence of reason.

I disagree with much that is in the bible.

 

That which is beyond mind and ineffable is not subject to reason or rationality.

It is not subject to mind or knowldege or understanding.

Perhaps this is why faith is appropriate in discussing such things.

It doesn't matter - it's just a word, we can do away with it if you wish.

[Vmarco]

[Birch]

Actually, I have studied the Abrahamic Faiths cover to cover,...in fact, in the 80's was considered an expert by members of the Westar Institute. Would be glad to respond to any historical questions.

 

Why do people engage in such an absurdity as present-day Christianity? It does not take a degree in religious studies to see how this Christianity got its deep grip on society. History is quite clear regarding the roots of this deception, which was firmly grounded by the end of the sixth century. Theodosian laws, for example, condemned all non-Christians, thus promoting ardent persecutions of freethinkers, deists, pantheists, polytheists, pagans, and others whose confiscated property enriched the new church. Then came the barbaric reign of Justinian, which barred anyone outside specific neo-Christian beliefs from civil service, and whose forced baptisms upon Arabs encouraged the way for the establishment of the insanity of Islam. Christianity was spread through violence and now propagates its faith through the fortune raised from that violence. In the United States that is a serious felony, and their propagators are nothing less than accessory felons.

 

V

 

So, are any of the monotheisms 'good' for ecology? I'd say if not then they ought to be kicked out with the dishwater because I don't think we have time to let everyone down slowly, which is IMO what these interfaith things are supposed to be doing. But if you say in practice the various religious leaders are more concerned with their respective political powers than anything else then that (for me) points to systemic failure of their respective faiths to awaken or enlighten anyone, which IMO is what we need more not less of in such times.

[Informer]

 

 

Anyone who feels that Christianity does not offer a path to liberation and has an open mind should familiarize themselves with the works of Father Anthony Demello - an Indian Jesuit psychotherapist. After listening and reading his works, I finally saw the truth through Christian scripture for the first time and I'm not, nor have I ever been Christian. But I understood how the mystics interpret them and access truth through them. I then learned that the present pope banned all of Demello's works as heresy while in his capacity as official censor for the Catholic church.

Most religions have value in their mystical traditions. Unfortunately, nothing is safe from human corruption and exploitation.

 

Regarding some of Vmarco's comments on faith and belief, there is an alternative way to look at it. With respect to most knowledge, there is a possibility for the mind to know things. When approaching the spiritual, it is important to ask ourselves whether or not it is possible to know. The mind is finite and composed of it's contents. The mind can never know what is beyond itself because then that would be part of the known. So there is a realm beyond mind, beyond knowing. I agree that it is unhelpful to replace that un-knowable with belief, that is, a gratuitous assertion of what is the nature of the un-knowable. This is where I define faith differently.

 

Belief is the fervent hope that a gratuitous assertion explains the un-knowable.

Faith is not having confidence that a belief is true, in my lexicon.

Faith is the confidence that when all belief is abandoned, what remains is what is.

It can give us the confidence to open ourselves to pure being and "experience" beyond mind and knowing. I believe I picked this up from Osho so you should be familiar with this Vmarco - it was probably from one of his Zhuang Zi books though I'm not certain.

 

Just FYI, I think this is a good perspective One of many combined.

 

Open mind

not only mine

fine!

 

[Seth Ananda]

How broad minded of you,

Sounds like gentler and kinder self-justifications and spin doctoring for various kinds of put downs, and obviously more insidious and hypnotically persuasive than the in your face non-ego, ego trips of some the "Buddhists" who post here.

 

Om

?!? Did you read the part where I said I feel no particular Bias towards any the 3?

I actually really like all 3. I am a great fan of many traditions.

 

I was hoping if anything that it would help remove the 'my path is better than yours' thing.

 

It is in no way meant to say that 3 'Beyond' is higher than 2 or 1. I possibly should have made that clearer.

 

If anything, concerning the Buddhists, I wanted to show a way that Buddhist Ideas can be practiced along side ideas from other traditions. The Interfaith thing is strongly affected by comparative philosophy, and so far still has trouble figuring out how to add Buddhism with out reducing it to an eternalist philosophy, which isn't fair to Buddhists.

 

[Seth Ananda]

So, are any of the monotheisms 'good' for ecology? I'd say if not then they ought to be kicked out with the dishwater because I don't think we have time to let everyone down slowly, which is IMO what these interfaith things are supposed to be doing. But if you say in practice the various religious leaders are more concerned with their respective political powers than anything else then that (for me) points to systemic failure of their respective faiths to awaken or enlighten anyone, which IMO is what we need more not less of in such times.

Tantra {indian} is a Monotheistic path, one that is deeply respectful towards the Natural world.

Many of the great mystics in monotheistic traditions were Nature lovers.

Any religion with a set of teachings about the 'Immanent' God/divinity is potentially very good for the ecology movement.

[Seth Ananda]

*sarcasm* Yeah I agree, lets divide up spirituality some more, so we can have more seperations and divisions.

 

What good it does everyone is non, it only benefits the agenda of division.

 

How about instead of being so vehement about differences we find the similarites and altering perspective that are assimilateable, to achieve an understanding.

I personally disagree. It is a categorizing system not a ranking system. all the experiences had within the different perspectives are 'Real' on an experiential level, and may be deeply tied to the filters we have.

 

For me there are elements of value in all of them.

[Seth Ananda]

Great posts Seth - your taxonomy of spiritual traditions is insightful and interesting.

 

Anyone who feels that Christianity does not offer a path to liberation and has an open mind should familiarize themselves with the works of Father Anthony Demello - an Indian Jesuit psychotherapist. After listening and reading his works, I finally saw the truth through Christian scripture for the first time and I'm not, nor have I ever been Christian. But I understood how the mystics interpret them and access truth through them.

Thanks

I also Got a lot out of Demello. My Jesuit friend put me on to him originally.

I have never heard about him being banned though. Dodgy! lol funny church. The last pope did sweat lodge ceremonys with Indians and got declared a pipe holder, and told Aboriginals here in Aus to resist Christianization and hang on to their own traditions. How weird is that? Then consider his stance on women priests, contraception... I guess he was opening his mind in the ways he was ready to... Sad that Sex Issues are so big for so many people.

[Informer]

"In the past I would experience the 'Self' or Oneness, and that would be fantastic, but some part of me would cling to it. Eventually the state would pass, the bliss would subside, and I would be left in depression wanting it back. Now Thanks to 'Beyond' teachings I do not hang on to such states or bliss. They are free to come and go, without me having a need to make them 'mine' {or Me lol}."

 

Will you describe these experiences more?

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks

I also Got a lot out of Demello. My Jesuit friend put me on to him originally.

I have never heard about him being banned though. Dodgy! lol funny church. The last pope did sweat lodge ceremonys with Indians and got declared a pipe holder, and told Aboriginals here in Aus to resist Christianization and hang on to their own traditions. How weird is that? Then consider his stance on women priests, contraception... I guess he was opening his mind in the ways he was ready to... Sad that Sex Issues are so big for so many people.

 

Yes, too bad the current pope seems like he's got a major stick up his arse.

[Informer]

I can't see any teachings being one or the other really, most seem to be combinations, just depending on perspective.

 

So instead of looking at the teaching with the catagorical "outlook" that you posited, look at the same teaching with a differing perspective. You will see that it is not the teaching that fits into the category, but the perspective that is interpreting the teaching.

[Vajrahridaya]

If anything, concerning the Buddhists, I wanted to show a way that Buddhist Ideas can be practiced along side ideas from other traditions. The Interfaith thing is strongly affected by comparative philosophy, and so far still has trouble figuring out how to add Buddhism with out reducing it to an eternalist philosophy, which isn't fair to Buddhists.

 

 

I think the only way is to consider "God" as a metaphor for everything as a creative matrix without static essential self, or Self governing beyond everything as a self defining essence, unless again, as a metaphor for the fact that "we" are the God as all, that we are all the co-creating power or inter-collectively-co-manifesting everything since beginningless time, playing with the elemental forces.

 

For instance, translating Brahma as a metaphor for the creative principle of things, Vishnu as the sustaining force, and Shiva as the ending force of the cycle into a new Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva cycle both microcosmically and macrocosmically. Brahman would have to be defined as their inter-dependence and emptiness, but not as a transcendent self reality as it's generally defined.

[doc benway]

Thanks

I also Got a lot out of Demello. My Jesuit friend put me on to him originally.

I have never heard about him being banned though.

This is worth a read for anyone interested in Demello:

 

 

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

 

 

NOTIFICATION

 

CONCERNING THE WRITINGS OF

FATHER ANTHONY DE MELLO, SJ

 

 

The Indian Jesuit priest, Father Anthony de Mello (1931-1987) is well known due to his numerous publications which, translated into various languages, have been widely circulated in many countries of the world, though not all of these texts were authorized by him for publication. His works, which almost always take the form of brief stories, contain some valid elements of oriental wisdom. These can be helpful in achieving self-mastery, in breaking the bonds and feelings that keep us from being free, and in approaching with serenity the various vicissitudes of life. Especially in his early writings, Father de Mello, while revealing the influence of Buddhist and Taoist spiritual currents, remained within the lines of Christian spirituality. In these books, he treats the different kinds of prayer: petition, intercession and praise, as well as contemplation of the mysteries of the life of Christ, etc.

 

But already in certain passages in these early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. In place of the revelation which has come in the person of Jesus Christ, he substitutes an intuition of God without form or image, to the point of speaking of God as a pure void. To see God it is enough to look directly at the world. Nothing can be said about God; the only knowing is unknowing. To pose the question of his existence is already nonsense. This radical apophaticism leads even to a denial that the Bible contains valid statements about God. The words of Scripture are indications which serve only to lead a person to silence. In other passages, the judgment on sacred religious texts, not excluding the Bible, becomes even more severe: they are said to prevent people from following their own common sense and cause them to become obtuse and cruel. Religions, including Christianity, are one of the major obstacles to the discovery of truth. This truth, however, is never defined by the author in its precise contents. For him, to think that the God of one's own religion is the only one is simply fanaticism. "God" is considered as a cosmic reality, vague and omnipresent; the personal nature of God is ignored and in practice denied.

 

Father de Mello demonstrates an appreciation for Jesus, of whom he declares himself to be a "disciple." But he considers Jesus as a master alongside others. The only difference from other men is that Jesus is "awake" and fully free, while others are not. Jesus is not recognized as the Son of God, but simply as the one who teaches us that all people are children of God. In addition, the author's statements on the final destiny of man give rise to perplexity. At one point, he speaks of a "dissolving" into the impersonal God, as salt dissolves in water. On various occasions, the question of destiny after death is declared to be irrelevant; only the present life should be of interest. With respect to this life, since evil is simply ignorance, there are no objective rules of morality. Good and evil are simply mental evaluations imposed upon reality.

 

Consistent with what has been presented, one can understand how, according to the author, any belief or profession of faith whether in God or in Christ cannot but impede one's personal access to truth. The Church, making the word of God in Holy Scripture into an idol, has ended up banishing God from the temple. She has consequently lost the authority to teach in the name of Christ.

 

With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm.

 

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Notification, adopted in the Ordinary Session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.

 

Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 24, 1998, the Solemnity of the Birth of John the Baptist.

 

 

+ Joseph Card. Ratzinger

Prefect

 

Ironically, John Paul II also said of Demello: " his theological compassion for humanity, passion for faith & belief in Christian values are a forward light for our collective future "

[Birch]

This is worth a read for anyone interested in Demello:

 

 

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

 

 

NOTIFICATION

 

CONCERNING THE WRITINGS OF

FATHER ANTHONY DE MELLO, SJ

 

 

The Indian Jesuit priest, Father Anthony de Mello (1931-1987) is well known due to his numerous publications which, translated into various languages, have been widely circulated in many countries of the world, though not all of these texts were authorized by him for publication. His works, which almost always take the form of brief stories, contain some valid elements of oriental wisdom. These can be helpful in achieving self-mastery, in breaking the bonds and feelings that keep us from being free, and in approaching with serenity the various vicissitudes of life. Especially in his early writings, Father de Mello, while revealing the influence of Buddhist and Taoist spiritual currents, remained within the lines of Christian spirituality. In these books, he treats the different kinds of prayer: petition, intercession and praise, as well as contemplation of the mysteries of the life of Christ, etc.

 

But already in certain passages in these early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. In place of the revelation which has come in the person of Jesus Christ, he substitutes an intuition of God without form or image, to the point of speaking of God as a pure void. To see God it is enough to look directly at the world. Nothing can be said about God; the only knowing is unknowing. To pose the question of his existence is already nonsense. This radical apophaticism leads even to a denial that the Bible contains valid statements about God. The words of Scripture are indications which serve only to lead a person to silence. In other passages, the judgment on sacred religious texts, not excluding the Bible, becomes even more severe: they are said to prevent people from following their own common sense and cause them to become obtuse and cruel. Religions, including Christianity, are one of the major obstacles to the discovery of truth. This truth, however, is never defined by the author in its precise contents. For him, to think that the God of one's own religion is the only one is simply fanaticism. "God" is considered as a cosmic reality, vague and omnipresent; the personal nature of God is ignored and in practice denied.

 

Father de Mello demonstrates an appreciation for Jesus, of whom he declares himself to be a "disciple." But he considers Jesus as a master alongside others. The only difference from other men is that Jesus is "awake" and fully free, while others are not. Jesus is not recognized as the Son of God, but simply as the one who teaches us that all people are children of God. In addition, the author's statements on the final destiny of man give rise to perplexity. At one point, he speaks of a "dissolving" into the impersonal God, as salt dissolves in water. On various occasions, the question of destiny after death is declared to be irrelevant; only the present life should be of interest. With respect to this life, since evil is simply ignorance, there are no objective rules of morality. Good and evil are simply mental evaluations imposed upon reality.

 

Consistent with what has been presented, one can understand how, according to the author, any belief or profession of faith whether in God or in Christ cannot but impede one's personal access to truth. The Church, making the word of God in Holy Scripture into an idol, has ended up banishing God from the temple. She has consequently lost the authority to teach in the name of Christ.

 

With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm.

 

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Notification, adopted in the Ordinary Session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.

 

Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 24, 1998, the Solemnity of the Birth of John the Baptist.

 

 

+ Joseph Card. Ratzinger

Prefect

 

Ironically, John Paul II also said of Demello: " his theological compassion for humanity, passion for faith & belief in Christian values are a forward light for our collective future "

 

"With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm."

 

Protect the good of the Christian faithful from the truth ?

 

Insane.

[Seth Ananda]

"In the past I would experience the 'Self' or Oneness, and that would be fantastic, but some part of me would cling to it. Eventually the state would pass, the bliss would subside, and I would be left in depression wanting it back. Now Thanks to 'Beyond' teachings I do not hang on to such states or bliss. They are free to come and go, without me having a need to make them 'mine' {or Me lol}."

 

Will you describe these experiences more?

lol. there are a variety of these experiences funnily enough. Sometimes when Kundalini reaches my crown, {how to say it?} the sense of Seth [as a person] dissolves into a radiant blissful light that 'is' everything. My body, my thoughts, awareness and perceiving itself, my chair, the fence, the sky, energy, other people and everything, and there is a sense of it all as One shining luminous Awareness

 

my last few experiences of this have had less of the 'self' sense that It used to have for me. That is probably because of my recent journey. But either way it is an amazing experience.

 

A note to make is that these experiences are still 'local' to the body region.

 

Then there are the 'rarer' more cosmic type of experiences that 'seem' to be beyond my body and are harder again to describe.

 

They often involve merging Into light completely, the world disappears, and there is a sense of Omniscience.

Now I like to be very careful with that word. I know that scriptures are happy to through that word around describing the states but I am not.

 

If someone gave me some ridiculous maths equation [assuming I could remember that question while in that state lol] i do not know if It would know that answer.

 

What I do know is that the light 'feels' Massively intelligent, like it is the orchestrating element that holds everything together and Knows all things. I can not have this experience without returning with far deeper insight into any number of Issues, or relationships or just other people around me.

 

I believe saints like Neem Karoli possibly live most of their existence in this kind of state.

He 'seemed' to know everything about his students, at least most of the time. He could talk to people about things that someone said to them on a play ground when they were 8, or tell people how their parents died.

 

I still like to be careful with the concept. i do not know if it is 'really' omniscient, like could i know what everyone had for breakfast at once? I doubt it. But again, maybe it allows a kind of local omniscience?

 

Also I have never spent very long in this state, unlike the first one I mentioned.

[Birch]

lol. there are a variety of these experiences funnily enough. Sometimes when Kundalini reaches my crown, {how to say it?} the sense of Seth [as a person] dissolves into a radiant blissful light that 'is' everything. My body, my thoughts, awareness and perceiving itself, my chair, the fence, the sky, energy, other people and everything, and there is a sense of it all as One shining luminous Awareness

 

my last few experiences of this have had less of the 'self' sense that It used to have for me. That is probably because of my recent journey. But either way it is an amazing experience.

 

A note to make is that these experiences are still 'local' to the body region.

 

Then there are the 'rarer' more cosmic type of experiences that 'seem' to be beyond my body and are harder again to describe.

 

They often involve merging Into light completely, the world disappears, and there is a sense of Omniscience.

Now I like to be very careful with that word. I know that scriptures are happy to through that word around describing the states but I am not.

 

If someone gave me some ridiculous maths equation [assuming I could remember that question while in that state lol] i do not know if It would know that answer.

 

What I do know is that the light 'feels' Massively intelligent, like it is the orchestrating element that holds everything together and Knows all things. I can not have this experience without returning with far deeper insight into any number of Issues, or relationships or just other people around me.

 

I believe saints like Neem Karoli possibly live most of their existence in this kind of state.

He 'seemed' to know everything about his students, at least most of the time. He could talk to people about things that someone said to them on a play ground when they were 8, or tell people how their parents died.

 

I still like to be careful with the concept. i do not know if it is 'really' omniscient, like could i know what everyone had for breakfast at once? I doubt it. But again, maybe it allows a kind of local omniscience?

 

Also I have never spent very long in this state, unlike the first one I mentioned.

 

Interesting experiences. Maybe if we could get to the bottom of this 'omniscient' stuff - rather than people just saying they have had an experience of it and managed to convince someone else who bought it because they haven't experienced it we might get somewhere I ought to add that K is not always lots of fun. Having yourself drop out the bottom of yourself is about as much fun as throwing up IME.

[Seth Ananda]

Interesting experiences. Maybe if we could get to the bottom of this 'omniscient' stuff - rather than people just saying they have had an experience of it and managed to convince someone else who bought it because they haven't experienced it we might get somewhere I ought to add that K is not always lots of fun. Having yourself drop out the bottom of yourself is about as much fun as throwing up IME.

That's part of why I am cautious about it being used as a word.

 

And K gets easier over time. It still gives me grief occasionally, like when It wants to clear something in my system. That period I mentioned in my 'No self' thread, where everything [my traumatic memory's] was being pushed up at once, K was in part responsible for.

It's like till I was ready to start moving through it, or because the door was tightly closed she always just bypassed it. As soon as the door opened though, she was like Now! Now! Now! process this! we are cleaning your system no matter what!

it was like having a newly awakened K again. I had almost forgotten what that can be like.

[Informer]

lol. there are a variety of these experiences funnily enough. Sometimes when Kundalini reaches my crown, {how to say it?} the sense of Seth [as a person] dissolves into a radiant blissful light that 'is' everything. My body, my thoughts, awareness and perceiving itself, my chair, the fence, the sky, energy, other people and everything, and there is a sense of it all as One shining luminous Awareness

 

my last few experiences of this have had less of the 'self' sense that It used to have for me. That is probably because of my recent journey. But either way it is an amazing experience.

 

A note to make is that these experiences are still 'local' to the body region.

 

Then there are the 'rarer' more cosmic type of experiences that 'seem' to be beyond my body and are harder again to describe.

 

They often involve merging Into light completely, the world disappears, and there is a sense of Omniscience.

Now I like to be very careful with that word. I know that scriptures are happy to through that word around describing the states but I am not.

 

If someone gave me some ridiculous maths equation [assuming I could remember that question while in that state lol] i do not know if It would know that answer.

 

What I do know is that the light 'feels' Massively intelligent, like it is the orchestrating element that holds everything together and Knows all things. I can not have this experience without returning with far deeper insight into any number of Issues, or relationships or just other people around me.

 

I believe saints like Neem Karoli possibly live most of their existence in this kind of state.

He 'seemed' to know everything about his students, at least most of the time. He could talk to people about things that someone said to them on a play ground when they were 8, or tell people how their parents died.

 

I still like to be careful with the concept. i do not know if it is 'really' omniscient, like could i know what everyone had for breakfast at once? I doubt it. But again, maybe it allows a kind of local omniscience?

 

Also I have never spent very long in this state, unlike the first one I mentioned.

 

This is why you didn't get trapped Seth, because even though you came to the same conclusion, the perspective is totally different! Deep down you already knew the truth, you just let go of the attachements!

 

<3

 

I agree, not omniscience, that would be far too much knowledge to interpret with our pea brains.

[Seth Ananda]

 

<3

 

I agree, not omniscience, that would be far too much knowledge to interpret with our pea brains.

Rofl! that's my suspicion as well... I imaging my head exploding, pea soup going everywhere...

Blessings!

[Informer]

Rofl! that's my suspicion as well... I imaging my head exploding, pea soup going everywhere...

Blessings!

 

Haha, I had the same visual.