Three Kinds of Spiritual Teachings.

[Vmarco]

There is not a single permanent Self of all. This is not what the mahaparinirvana sutra is talking about. It's not talking about merging with an all encompassing light. The self of a Buddha arises as permanent due to a permanent intuitive insight into the emptiness of awareness and phenomena. It's basically the constant recognition that makes one a anuttarasamyaksambuddha, and that state of realization is the permanent self of a Buddha.

 

What if, everything you thought was meaningful, is actually meaningless? Would you nevertheless cling to your beliefs

 

Are you're opinions about Buddha just regurgitations from the interpretations of those who don't even understand what a Tathagata is.

 

Did I ever say "There [was] a single permanent Self of all."

 

Did I ever say that anyone "merges with an all encompassing light." Actually, Clear Light tantra is quite valuable, even if one cannot uncover bodhi in this lifetime. Clear Light is synonymous with, and can be better understood today, by the term Undivided Light,...the Light beyond all form and emptiness,...or, even more accurate, the Light that is beyond the sum of all form and emptiness.

 

What if you're viewing Buddhism as an cerebral-centric archeologist views old cultures like the Maya or Naga,...who, without grasping what form is empty, and empty is form actually means, is just making guesses filtered through concepts of knowledge.

 

I do find it comical how Buddhists often talk about Buddha like Christians talk about Jesus,...as if they personally know them.

 

Much of what I mention is not meant to be dogma, but merely to ease any anxiety in taking the next steps. Of course, it is quite difficult having discussions with dogmatic persons from any belief system. Take yourself for example,...I mention Undivided Light, and instead of any inquiry about it, that may trouble you, you out of hand deny it, and say that's sacrilege, you're advocating "monistic idealism."

 

However, the Second Transmission says, "the clear light cannot be revealed, by the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises, of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka; the clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals."

 

Of course, if your path is focused on the Rainbow Body, then that's where your attention is,...which is no reason to argue that others should not be interested in Clear Light,...the Light beyond the sum of all form and emptiness.

 

Do I feel that the Tantra of Clear Light is more valuable than Rainbow Bodies, Walking on Water, being Saved by Jesus, or acquiring 32 virgins,...sure,...just as Christocratic Fascists think a world under the Laws of the God of Jacob is the most valuable thing.

 

My ideal would be a world where honesty was important,...and in such a world, I feel that understanding light would be a noble pursuit.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Seth Ananda]

[JustARandomPanda]

Actually, to debate Permanent Self within the 3D sentient world, is only meant, as the Mahaparinirvana implies, to be a necessary guide,...a guide away from the idea of "no self." There is a "no-self", the self we THINK we are,...but there is a Self beyond thinking,...and beyond the skandhas.

 

I have pondered this recently. I read somwhere in the Shurangama Sutra (can't recall exactly where) the Buddha talks to a king. I'm a bit unclear about this as my memory is sketchy (I really should go get that book I suppose and look it up).

 

Anyway...the Buddha asks the king if he experiences (I think that was it) the river the same as he (meaning the king) did as a little boy. The king says yes, despite his old age that has not changed.

 

The Buddha says that's right. That there is something about the king that has not changed even though he has aged and changed with the passing of time.

 

Anyway...I came away from that story wondering what exactly it is that the Buddha was getting at in that story.

[Vajrahridaya]

What if, everything you thought was meaningful, is actually meaningless? Would you nevertheless cling to your beliefs

 

Are you're opinions about Buddha just regurgitations from the interpretations of those who don't even understand what a Tathagata is.

 

What if you're viewing Buddhism as an cerebral-centric archeologist views old cultures like the Maya or Naga,...who, without grasping what form is empty, and empty is form actually means, is just making guesses filtered through concepts of knowledge.

 

You know when you know without having to think about it.

 

 

Much of what I mention is not meant to be dogma, but merely to ease any anxiety in taking the next steps. Of course, it is quite difficult having discussions with dogmatic persons from any belief system. Take yourself for example,...I mention Undivided Light, and instead of any inquiry about it, that may trouble you, you out of hand deny it, and say that's sacrilege, you're advocating "monistic idealism."

 

Because it's a very common mistake from people without training in "right view" who dive into meditation. The Buddha trained his students in right view, as did Tilopa. If the Buddha felt that Buddhahood was just clear light, or that everything was just "clear light" and that was it, he'd say that. Many of his students weren't stupid. The clear light experience is important, and it's life changing, but it's not Buddhahood by itself, because everything keeps going, it's not a refuge in and of itself. It's a refuge if coupled with right view, but right view takes precedence, otherwise it wouldn't be the 1st of the 8 fold path. Everything keeps going, revolving, cycling and if you cling to the experience of clear light as a Self, even blissfully, then this just leads to blissful re-absorption at the end of a cosmic aeon and ignorant re-expression in the next cosmic cycle and the bodhi of the Buddhas is not realized. Buddha does say this. You as well can have this understanding and realization on a non-conceptual level. You don't have to revert to saying that people like me who have practiced extensively and have had the insights and experiences coupled with the wisdom of Buddhas of antiquity are merely talking from book knowledge, because we are not.

 

If you set up an experience as an ultimate Self, or a state of mind, even if beyond mind as a Self of all... there is a clinging. If you are just experiencing the luminosity of all things due to realizing the emptiness of things, that's different, as you're not advocating some kind of self standing nature, or self intelligence, you're realizing inter-dependence.

 

However, the Second Transmission says, "the clear light cannot be revealed, by the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises, of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka; the clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals."

 

You keep quoting this, but you haven't studied the path to the point where you can actually throw away the concepts. Tilopa taught this to students that were ripe.

 

Of course, if your path is focused on the Rainbow Body, then that's where your attention is,...which is no reason to argue that others should not be interested in Clear Light,...the Light beyond the sum of all form and emptiness.

 

The Jalus, or body of light, or rainbow body is realization of clear light and full physical integration with that realization, but this has to do with dependent origination and seeing right through it, always. Maybe your understanding is nothing but a veil that you hold onto, a high bliss that blinds you? If so, you need to be directed on a subtle level through transmission.

 

You shouldn't pretend to know about things you don't know about, when it comes to jalus or the body of light. The reason why I know you don't know what Tilopa meant by clear light, is that you make it something different, something transcendent. It's not that you use exact words that reveal this, but it's in how you use the words that you do use which reveals this to me.

 

Do I feel that the Tantra of Clear Light is more valuable than Rainbow Bodies, Walking on Water, being Saved by Jesus, or acquiring 32 virgins,...sure,...just as Christocratic Fascists think a world under the Laws of the God of Jacob is the most valuable thing.

 

Just equating the Jalus with these other things reveals your lack of understanding. Setting up a dualism between the Jalus (body of light) and the realization of clear light via Tilopas teaching, reveals that you don't understand dependent origination enough to even say you've transcended it. You've just had an experience that has arisen due to causes and conditions, some peak experience and you cling to it as the end all be all.

 

My ideal would be a world where honesty was important,...and in such a world, I feel that understanding light would be a noble pursuit.

 

V

 

Sure, but the Buddha warned about experiences of light and being blinded by them. This is why "Right View" is very important.

[Vajrahridaya]

I have pondered this recently. I read somwhere in the Shurangama Sutra (can't recall exactly where) the Buddha talks to a king. I'm a bit unclear about this as my memory is sketchy (I really should go get that book I suppose and look it up).

 

Anyway...the Buddha asks the king if he experiences (I think that was it) the river the same as he (meaning the king) did as a little boy. The king says yes, despite his old age that has not changed.

 

The Buddha says that's right. That there is something about the king that has not changed even though he has aged and changed with the passing of time.

 

Anyway...I came away from that story wondering what exactly it is that the Buddha was getting at in that story.

 

The awareness of connectivity. That awareness can be like a string connecting everything on it like a necklace.

 

But, if the king bumps his head and has amnesia, he'll have sentience, but he'll have to re-develop awareness of the connections again.

 

This is like death, in death and rebirth we generally don't have awareness of the connections between the previous life and this life, because our awareness is so caught up with identity with the body, it's like amnesia and awareness has to be developed or "subtlified" sort of speak. If you've really delved into your unconscious, you WILL see directly past lives, this WILL happen, no matter who you are. If you really take apart your body through awareness, you'll see the stream of your mind and the causes and conditions that brought it from there to here to all sorts of depths, enough to know deeply the selfless nature of existence. As time is without Self as phenomena is without Self as consciousness is without Self, this type of flexibility is available through awareness developing and seeing this flexibility directly is part of the process of realizing the selfless nature of the cosmos.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Actually, to debate Permanent Self within the 3D sentient world, is only meant, as the Mahaparinirvana implies, to be a necessary guide,...a guide away from the idea of "no self." There is a "no-self", the self we THINK we are,...but there is a Self beyond thinking,...and beyond the skandhas.

 

 

Actually the inner debate between Self and no-self extends deep within the non-conceptual states of realization, thus the Buddha elaborated on the 4 formless samadhis of infinite space, infinite consciousness, infinite nothingness, and neither perception nor non-perception.

 

Please take your time in reading these and taking in their meaning, at least through the power of expansive imagination if you cannot reference these directly through remembered experience.

 

If the Buddha had his realization of dependent origination/emptiness after having mastered these formless states of meditation, already exceedingly rare for any person... that should reveal something to you about how deep and subtle of a teaching dependent origination/emptiness/anatta actually "is."

 

Thus, I would recommend to you, that you drop your pride of experience and intellectual formulation and go deeper into the path of the Buddhas.

[C T]

I have pondered this recently. I read somwhere in the Shurangama Sutra (can't recall exactly where) the Buddha talks to a king. I'm a bit unclear about this as my memory is sketchy (I really should go get that book I suppose and look it up).

 

Anyway...the Buddha asks the king if he experiences (I think that was it) the river the same as he (meaning the king) did as a little boy. The king says yes, despite his old age that has not changed.

 

The Buddha says that's right. That there is something about the king that has not changed even though he has aged and changed with the passing of time.

 

Anyway...I came away from that story wondering what exactly it is that the Buddha was getting at in that story.

The Buddha said to the king, "By watching the ceaseless changes of these transformations, you awaken and know of your extinction, but do you also know that at the time of extinction there is something in your body which does not become extinct?"

King replies that he does not know.

 

Buddha: "I will now show you the nature which is not produced and not extinguished."

 

"Great King, how old were you when you first saw the waters of the Ganges?"

The king replies he first saw the river when he was three.

 

Buddha: "Great King, you have said that when you were twenty you had deteriorated from when you were ten. Day by day, month by month, year by year, until you have now reached sixty, in thought after thought, there has been change. Yet when you saw the Ganges at the age of three, how was it different from when you were thirteen?"

King replies no difference to the seeing when he was three, thirteen and even now, at sixty-two.

 

Buddha: "Now you are mournful that your hair is white and your face is wrinkled. In the same way that your face is definitely more wrinkled now than it was in your youth, has the seeing with which you look at the Ganges aged, so that it is aged now and was young when you looked at the river as a child in the past?"

King: "No, world honored One."

 

Buddha: "Great King, your face is in wrinkles, but the essential nature of your seeing has not wrinkled. What wrinkles is subject to change - what does not wrinkle does not change."

Buddha continued, "What changes will become extinct, but what does not change is fundamentally free of production and extinction. How can it be subject to your birth and death? Furthermore, why bring up what others say: that after the death of the body there is total extinction?"

[Vajrahridaya]

The Buddha said to the king, "By watching the ceaseless changes of these transformations, you awaken and know of your extinction, but do you also know that at the time of extinction there is something in your body which does not become extinct?"

King replies that he does not know.

 

Buddha: "I will now show you the nature which is not produced and not extinguished."

 

Emptiness, not the concept, not the jhana of nothingness, but the luminous emptiness. It is not a consciousness, nor is it a self.

 

It is awareness free from itself, an awareness that has always been available because everything has always been empty. This is when the light of your awareness has realized it's clarity. (Clear light)

 

 

From the Shurangama Sutra with some commentary:

 

QUOTE

(41) Ananda, you should know that the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty, and he must return consciousness to the source. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

He can cause the individual sense faculties of his body to unite and open. He also has a pervasive awareness of all the categories of beings in the ten directions. Since his awareness is pervasive, he can enter the perfect source. But if he regards what he is returning to as the cause of true permanence and interprets this as a supreme state, he will fall into the error of holding to that cause. Kapila the Sankhyan, with his theory of returning to the Truth of the Unmanifest (Like what is discussed in the Upanishads), will become his companion. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the first state, in which he creates a place to which to return, based on the idea that there is something to attain. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds of eternalism.

 

(42) Further, Ananda, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

He may regard that to which he is returning as his own body and see all living beings in the twelve categories throughout space as flowing forth from his body. If he interprets this as a supreme state, he will fall into the error of maintaining that he has an ability which he does not really have. Maheshvara (great god, shiva, etc.), who manifests his boundless body, will become his companion. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the second state, in which he creates a specific ability based on the idea that he has such an ability. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds for being born in the Heaven of Great Pride where the self is considered all-pervading and perfect.

 

(43) Further, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

If he regards what he is returning to as a refuge, he will suspect that his body and mind come forth from there, and that all things in the ten directions of space arise from there as well. He will explain that that place from which all things issue forth is the truly permanent body, which is not subject to production and destruction. While still within production and destruction, he prematurely reckons that he abides in permanence. Since he is deluded about non-production, he is also confused about production and destruction. He is sunk in confusion. If he interprets this as a supreme state, he will fall into the error of taking what is not permanent to be permanent. He will speculate that the God of Sovereignty (Ishvaradeva) is his companion. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the third state, in which he makes a false speculation based on the idea that there is a refuge. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds of a distorted view of perfection.

 

(44) Further, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

Based on his idea that there is universal awareness, he formulates a theory that all the plants and trees in the ten directions are sentient, not different from human beings. He claims that plants and trees can become people, and that when people die they again become plants and trees in the ten directions. If he considers this idea of unrestricted, universal awareness to be supreme, he will fall into the error of maintaining that what is not aware has awareness. Vasishtha and Sainika, who maintained the idea of comprehensive awareness, will become his companions. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the fourth state, in which he creates an erroneous interpretation based on the idea that there is a universal awareness. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds of a distorted view of awareness.

 

(45) Further, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

If he has attained versatility in the perfect fusion and interchangeable functioning of the sense faculties, he may speculate that all things arise from these perfect transformations. He then seeks the light of fire, delights in the purity of water, loves the wind's circuitous flow, and contemplates the accomplishments of the earth. He reveres and serves them all. He takes these mundane elements to be a fundamental cause and considers them to be everlasting. He will then fall into the error of taking what is not production to be production. Kashyapa and the Brahmans who seek to transcend birth and death by diligently serving fire and worshipping water will become his companions. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the fifth state, in which he confusedly pursues the elements, creating a false cause that leads to false aspirations based on speculations about his attachment to worship. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds of a distorted view of transformation.

 

(46) Further, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

He may speculate that there is an emptiness within the perfect brightness, and based on that he denies the myriad transformations, taking their eternal cessation as his refuge. If he interprets this as a supreme state, he will fall into the error of taking what is not a refuge to be a refuge. Those abiding in Shunyata in the Heaven of [Neither Thought nor] Non-Thought will become his companions. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the sixth state, in which he realizes a state of voidness based on the idea of emptiness within the perfect brightness. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds of annihilationism/nihilism.

 

(47) Further, the good person has thoroughly seen the formations skandha as empty. He has already ended production and destruction, but he has not yet perfected the subtle wonder of ultimate serenity.

 

In the state of perfect permanence, he may bolster his body, hoping to live for a long time in that subtle and perfect condition without dying. If he interprets this as a supreme state, he will fall into the error of being greedy for something unattainable. Asita and those who seek long life will become his companions. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

 

This is the seventh state, in which he creates the false cause of bolstering and aspires to permanent worldly existence, based on his attachment to the life-source. He strays far from perfect penetration and turns his back on the City of Nirvana, thus sowing the seeds for false thoughts of lengthening life.

END QUOTE

 

Buddha warned (in Shurangama Sutra) against taking Consciousness as a permanent Spiritual Self:

 

QUOTE

(33) Further, in his practice of samadhi, such a good person's mind is firm, unmoving, and proper and can no longer be disturbed by demons. He can thoroughly investigate the origin of all categories of beings and contemplate the source of the subtle, fleeting, and constant fluctuation. But if he begins to speculate about self and others, he could fall into error with theories of partial impermanence and partial permanence based on four distorted views.

 

First, as this person contemplates the wonderfully bright mind pervading the ten directions, he concludes that this state of profound stillness is the ultimate spiritual self. Then he speculates, "My spiritual self, which is settled, bright, and unmoving, pervades the ten directions. All living beings are within my mind, and there they are born and die by themselves. Therefore, my mind is permanent, while those who undergo birth and death there are truly impermanent."

 

......

 

Because of these speculations of impermanence and permanence, he will fall into eternalism and become confused about the Bodhi nature. This is the third eternalist teaching, in which one postulates partial permanence.

 

......

 

Finally, if your pure, bright, clear, and unmoving state is permanent, then there should be no seeing, hearing, awareness or knowing in your body. If it is genuinely pure and true, it should not contain habits and falseness.

 

(Often considered by the higher or more subtle stages of delusion as the mysterious "Will of God", which is not the same as seeing what the Buddha taught as "Pratityasamutpada; Interdependent Origination, and one will not see how deep the scars of karma go)

 

How does it happen, then, that having seen some unusual thing in the past, you eventually forget it over time, until neither memory nor forgetfulness of it remain; but then later, upon suddenly seeing that unusual thing again, you remember it clearly from before without one detail omitted? How can you reckon the permeation which goes on in thought after thought in this pure, clear, and unmoving consciousness?

 

Ananda, you should know that this state of clarity is not real. It is like rapidly flowing water that appears to be still on the surface. Because of its rapid speed, you cannot perceive the flow, but that does not mean it is not flowing. If this were not the source of thinking, then how could one be subject to false habits?

 

If you do not open and unite your six sense faculties so that they function interchangeably, this false thinking will never cease.

 

That's why your seeing, hearing, awareness, and knowing are presently strung together by subtle habits, such that within the profound clarity, existence and non-existence are both illusory. This is the fifth kind of upside-down, minutely subtle thinking.

[Vmarco]

Damn it, I am going to have to learn a whole new set of language to converse with you. I admit that half the time I do not understand what you are saying or even exactly what your point is, but not because of the esoteric depth you are describing, but because of how you use words to explain yourself... Or because it seems that you use words that we use but with a different meaning to the rest.

 

YES!!!! The language of Heart-Mind is more different than the language of Physicians, Astrologers, or Accountants.

 

I certainly attempt to use the most accurate, current dictionary definitions. For example, god.

 

God (god), n.,

1. A being (condition) conceived as the omnipotent (condition), omniscient (condition) originator and ruler (condition) of the universe (condition), the principal object (condition) of faith and worship (conditions) in monotheistic religions (conditions).

2. The force (condition), effect (condition), or a manifestation or aspect (conditions) of this being (condition).

3. A being of supernatural powers (condition) or attributes (conditions), believed in and worshiped (conditions) by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality (conditions).

4. An image of a supernatural being; an idol (conditions).

5. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed (conditioned).

6. A very handsome man (condition).

7. A powerful ruler or despot (conditions).

8. Used to express disappointment, disbelief, frustration, annoyance (conditions).

 

The goods news is,...I'm willing to go as far as anyone wishes to go in the discussion.

 

V

[Vmarco]

I have pondered this recently. I read somwhere in the Shurangama Sutra (can't recall exactly where) the Buddha talks to a king. I'm a bit unclear about this as my memory is sketchy (I really should go get that book I suppose and look it up).

 

 

As others have commented on the particular part of Shurangama Sutra you mentioned, I'll bring up another point,....the Shurangama Sutra is an awesome text,...specifically Chapter 6,...Avalokitesvara's Dharma-Gate, an Enlightenment through the gateway of ear.

 

This is a most important chapter for anyone on the Short Path,...."Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and both awareness and its objects became empty. When the emptiness of awareness was ultimately perfected, emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be. With arising and ceasing gone, tranquility was revealed."

 

I agree with Avalokitesvara, that hearing is a great point of entry to Heart-Mind.

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated....The entire illusion was never really there. The six sense-organs are also thus. At first there was one essential brightness. Which split into a six-fold combination. If but one part ceases and returns, All six functions will stop as well."

 

Keep in mind,..an interesting point about Bardo Thodol,...Liberation Through Hearing During The Intermediate State,...or the spiritual observation that people can hear 49 days after the physical form expires, is that some feel that hearing is the first recognizable sense before birth,...hearing the heart beat of the mother.

 

V

[3bob]

I do not think he is discounting all other paths, and I think you are just pissed off that he is proving his point with facts like:

 

Buddha himself rejected all other paths as falling into eternalism, and that shankacharaya spent half his life arguing against the Buddhists, for denying a true self.

 

Thats the two main proponents of both sides agreeing that there is a difference. Pointing that out does not constitute

 

You want them to be saying the same thing, because you have beliefs from the Hindu path, and If they say the same thing [about Ultimate reality] then you and your beliefs are safe.

But... If they do not say the same thing, then 'danger!' It means you could be wrong about your path leading to the Ultimate...! That causes a sense of uncertainty that you are not fond of.

 

I personally do not know as I have not reached Ultimate Wisdom, and I think it entirely possible that the Hindu's may be right, But it seems logical to me on my path, that even if there is a True Self as awareness, to Label it 'My self' would cause me to create attachments to it, on a deep mind level. I would rather let it be without fixating on it [at this point in my path] and For me there is a logic and beauty to E&DO teachings.

 

Hey Guy since you are bringing it up imo VJ has not proved a single thing about that which is beyond concepts, doctrines, sutras, etc... And not only has he not proved a single thing but neither have I nor has any one else here done so through the use of such worded methods. That's the catch, thus I have nothing to be pissed off about in relation to the projection of yours about me. Further, ime no beliefs are safe per-se, including Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc.. and why you would pin me as being belief bound and having the need to feel safe about same I have no idea? Btw, at one time or another I have touched on or shared quotes from many various beliefs so I don't think you can pin me based on those materials either; heck I haven't even been able to pin myself down very well. (besides beliefs don't make it to "Mystery" or whatever pointer for same you prefer)

 

I can appreciate you trying to defend someone you apparently admire...

Then again I suggest caution, more so on public internet sites like this one that are often a melting pot and or mixing bowl of everything and everyone from a-z.

 

Om

[Vajrahridaya]

(besides beliefs don't make it to "Mystery" or whatever pointer for same you prefer)

 

Buddhism de-mystifies, it doesn't get stuck in ineffable idealizations.

[Vmarco]

[Vajrahridaya]

Those who know they know without having to think about it, are what would be called thoroughly brainwashed, or conditioned as a martial artist, who responds through years of training. Those who know, do not gnow.

 

Ok, whatever makes you feel supreme.

 

From my overview of Buddhism, I would certainly say that most of his students were indeed stupid,...imagine if he could have began with the Mahaparinirvana sutra, instead of ending with it.

 

I said many, not most.

 

Buddha purportedly said that he discovered something profound and luminous beyond all concepts. He tried to communicate that something, but few understood. Avalokitesvara understood,...but who else? Tilopa, the Second Transmission, understood,....and put Clear Light forefront in his Mahamudra.

 

Interesting you think of Tilopa as a second transmission. What about Garab Dorje? He's from the 200's B.C.

 

Training in Right View has become an obsession that distracts from the journey towards Clear Light. The Right View, as presented by most of today's Buddhism, is a dogma that obscures the Short Path. In other words, the Right View of the Long Paths, and the Right View of the Short Path of Freethought Buddhism, is very different.

 

Whatever you say dude.

 

As for meditation,...Tilopa advocated going beyond meditation,...that meditation is not the goal, as it has come to be in today's world of Lineage businesses. Tilopa said, "Exist in a state of non-meditation"

 

Of course, Garab Dorje said the same thing long before. That doesn't mean one skips the realizations had in all states of meditation. As to be in non-meditation all the time, one must have complete wisdom of all the states of mind, including those possible in meditation and their possible outcomes. If you can do that without meditation... good for you. If you haven't... better get some sitting in.

 

The Second Transmission produced much more awakening than the First. The First was as baby steps for most,...even in their less cerebral-centric society.

 

I agree. Garab Dorje was the second transmission who transmitted Dzogchen.

 

Most were not ready for full spectrum consciousness during Buddha’s day. Buddha purportedly said that he discovered something profound and luminous beyond all concepts. He tried to communicate that something, but few understood.

 

Sure, but some did in that very lifetime, and plenty did throughout lifetimes afterwards as not everyone has a capacity suited for a short path, until they do. Not everyone is ready for Dzogchen, until they are.

 

By the era of the mahasiddhas (800–1300 CE), more people were ready to hear the joy through their hearts. Before the Muslim invasion of central Asia, eighty-four mahasiddhas facilitated the greatest spiritual advancement in known history. Now, a new age is upon us. What one (Buddha) was to eighty-four (mahasiddhas), perhaps eighty-four will be to 7056 or more Tathagata's. Seven thousand and fifty-six honest, fearlessly compassionate beings are not so easily dismissed by religious control,...who go beyond going and coming. Some suggest that the next wave of enlightenment will bring a 1,008 Mahasiddhas, while others have said 321,616, but perhaps these are simply numbers to indicate many. What can be assured is that the next era of enlightenment will proliferate the great spiritual uprising described in the Kalachakra—the time cycle when the dark age of ignorance shifts to an illuminated age of heart-mind,...and the awareness of Clear Light.

 

V

 

Ok. Padmasambhava said that Dzogchen would proliferate at this time... so be it.

 

You should take up the role of student some more and learn more.

 

p.s. It's well accepted by Masters that Mahamudra and Dzogchen have the same outcome.

[xabir2005]

[Vmarco]

Hey Guy since you are bringing it up imo VJ has not proved a single thing about that which is beyond concepts, doctrines, sutras, etc... And not only has he not proved a single thing but neither have I nor has any one else here done so through the use of such worded methods. Om

 

 

That is correct,...for you, there is not yet any proof that what I've been pointing to is proof of anything. Quite bluntly, this is because you are not aware of a single truth. Once you become aware of a single truth, this conversation will shift exponentially.

 

A truth is that which points to a non-condition, non-concept, to something, so to say, that never changes,...for example, that There is No Present in Time.

 

Within my posts here is a consistant striving to use pointers. Hui Neng,...he became enlightened after hearing one sentence (of words)from a Master,..."Depending upon no-thing, you must find your own mind." That is a pointer to uncover barriers of seeing. My wish is to commune on levels beyond what many consider ineffible. There is nothing that is ineffible,...but to embrace that, means letting go of alot of beliefs.

 

"Your own Mind" is not the thinking mind, the so-called mind of ego,...it is the Mind of Unborn Awareness. You do not lack this Unborn Awareness,...you do not lack anything,...it's merely obscured by an attachment to the senses and skandhas.

 

There is no Present in time. The dream is fully within time,...there is no present in the dream. "Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists." And yet, as Osho said "We condemn the real and we enforce the unreal, because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society and the unreal is going to be convenient…A child is born in a society, and a society is already there with its fixed rules, regulations, behaviors and moralities which the child has to learn. When he/she will grow he/she will become false. Then children will be born to him/her, and he/she will help make them false, and this goes on and on."

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Vajrahridaya]

[Vmarco]

[3bob]

Buddhism de-mystifies, it doesn't get stuck in ineffable idealizations.

 

to personally circumscribe or say that teachings can circumscribe that which can not be circumscribed amounts to nothing more than ego mind.

[3bob]

[Vajrahridaya]

to personally circumscribe or say that teachings can circumscribe that which can not be circumscribed amounts to nothing more than ego mind.

 

That's not exactly what I said. One can reference more adequately with words and concepts the nature of things when one has a more imminent understanding of reality instead of attaching transcendence and ineffableness to it. This is what dependent origination does, it see's through such dualities as "only brahman is real but everything else is just illusion."

[3bob]

That's not exactly what I said. One can reference more adequately with words and concepts the nature of things when one has a more imminent understanding of reality instead of attaching transcendence and ineffableness to it. This is what dependent origination does, it see's through such dualities as "only brahman is real but everything else is just illusion."

 

More double talk and labeling; one can begin to understand when one begins to shut up.

[Vajrahridaya]

More double talk and labeling; one can begin to understand when one begins to shut up.

 

You come across as so angry and defensive 3bob. Maybe you should take your own advice?