Three Kinds of Spiritual Teachings.

[JustARandomPanda]

That is correct,...for you, there is not yet any proof that what I've been pointing to is proof of anything. Quite bluntly, this is because you are not aware of a single truth. Once you become aware of a single truth, this conversation will shift exponentially.

 

 

Wow. For some reason this paragraph hit me hard. I guess because I identify with it so much. I am not aware of even one Truth. Oh wait. I am aware of ONE. The fact that I am Baffled by all these varying claims of "truth" in assorted TB threads!

 

I guess that is the one simple thing I'm aware of - that I simply do not know what to think of everyone's competing "interpretations of reality".

 

I sat and thought about this for a while. And I admit I do hold the bias that there is such a thing as Truth. I also hold the biased opinion that this Truth can be knowable and furthermore that meditation can be one way (along with Science) of determining what this Truth is. I guess in a way I kind of think that's what the Buddha and perhaps Lao Tzu woke to - the Truth of Everything. Sort of like a Grand Unified Theory of Truth and that's what Enlightenment or Seeing the Tao is.

 

The really hard part is that because I have no direct experience with even one Truth (well other than Bafflement) it makes it difficult to assess someone elses "wisdom" level. That huge thread about how to assess someone's level of Enlightenment? Man...it went on for so long with soooo many people arguing about what constitutes Enlightenment and how to detect it. And the whole time I'm sitting there vaguely recalling a Sutra (Sutta? - Maybe the Lotus Sutra?) wherein it's stated that only a Buddha can truly and with complete accuracy know whether someone else is a Buddha or not. Not even Boddhisattvas are awake to this "thing" which only Buddhas know (which makes sense - otherwise there'd be no reason to make a distinction between a Buddha and a Bodhisattva).

 

 

Speaking for myself about the above quote, I get suspicious that perhaps I am interpreting someone's post or experiences incorrectly simply due to biases introduced by one or or some of my 5 senses. Since I have no everyday experiences of having awareness as it is NOT related to one of these 5 senses it leaves me baffled as to what the alternative might reveal.

 

Another example - I read somewhere (forget exactly where) about how Awareness is something separate from Conceptions. The latter belongs to a Skanda. This one completely and utterly baffles me. I can't even begin to imagine what Awareness minus Conceptions must be like! Not even a little bit. Maybe if I actually could I might have a chance at learning a Truth and be able to better assess other people's posts or where they're at on the "spiritual ladder" so to speak.

[Informer]

Wow. For some reason this paragraph hit me hard. I guess because I identify with it so much. I am not aware of even one Truth. Oh wait. I am aware of ONE. The fact that I am Baffled by all these varying claims of "truth" in assorted TB threads!

 

I guess that is the one simple thing I'm aware of - that I simply do not know what to think of everyone's competing "interpretations of reality".

 

I sat and thought about this for a while. And I admit I do hold the bias that there is such a thing as Truth. I also hold the biased opinion that this Truth can be knowable and furthermore that meditation can be one way (along with Science) of determining what this Truth is. I guess in a way I kind of think that's what the Buddha and perhaps Lao Tzu woke to - the Truth of Everything. Sort of like a Grand Unified Theory of Truth and that's what Enlightenment or Seeing the Tao is.

 

The really hard part is that because I have no direct experience with even one Truth (well other than Bafflement) it makes it difficult to assess someone elses "wisdom" level. That huge thread about how to assess someone's level of Enlightenment? Man...it went on for so long with soooo many people arguing about what constitutes Enlightenment and how to detect it. And the whole time I'm sitting there vaguely recalling a Sutra (Sutta? - Maybe the Lotus Sutra?) wherein it's stated that only a Buddha can truly and with complete accuracy know whether someone else is a Buddha or not. Not even Boddhisattvas are awake to this "thing" which only Buddhas know (which makes sense - otherwise there'd be no reason to make a distinction between a Buddha and a Bodhisattva).

 

 

Speaking for myself about the above quote, I get suspicious that perhaps I am interpreting someone's post or experiences incorrectly simply due to biases introduced by one or or some of my 5 senses. Since I have no everyday experiences of having awareness as it is NOT related to one of these 5 senses it leaves me baffled as to what the alternative might reveal.

 

Another example - I read somewhere (forget exactly where) about how Awareness is something separate from Conceptions. The latter belongs to a Skanda. This one completely and utterly baffles me. I can't even begin to imagine what Awareness minus Conceptions must be like! Not even a little bit. Maybe if I actually could I might have a chance at learning a Truth and be able to better assess other people's posts or where they're at on the "spiritual ladder" so to speak.

 

Wow, good job Serene. You just insinuated atleat one truth whether you realize it or not

 

I'm not going to tell you what though

[Vmarco]

 

Interesting you think of Tilopa as a second transmission. What about Garab Dorje? He's from the 200's B.C.

 

 

 

Did not say "I think" Tilopa was the Second Transmission,...that term has been used by other since 13th century,...and I haven't heard it attributed to anyone else. Why not Padmasambhava, Saraha, Kwan Yin, Nagarjuna, or Hui Neng? Very often, Tilopa does not even get on the top 20 list of important Buddhist figures. But then,...very few people are interested in the Short Path.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Birch]

Wow, good job Serene. You just insinuated atleat one truth whether you realize it or not

 

I'm not going to tell you what though

Yeah, I noticed that too :-)

So telling people doesn't seem to work either then?

Why? I figure because they'll only take their own word for it. And why's that?

No idea:-)

[Vmarco]

[JustARandomPanda]

Awesome insight,...but the idea of being "baffled" is a changing circumstance, or relative truth, not a real truth.

 

As for wisdom, it's not something to access, or can be learned through another. Wisdom is not knowledge.

 

"In pursuit of knowledge, every day something is acquired. In pursuit of wisdom, every day something is dropped." - Lao Tzu

 

The inquiry into truth is all you need to uncover truth,...and you've done that, with your opening statement.

 

With that attention and intention, the inquiry will lead you to truth,...and when it occurs, it will be effortless.

 

V

 

 

Hmm...

 

This does make sense. In that regard, if wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing then I kind of agree with Ralis when he says Heartmind [or insert other esoterica] is non-verbal. As in...all these bazillion threads on TB arguing Who's Truth is the Real Truth is the opposite of actual realization of Real Truth.

 

So...if people are spinning castles in the air at TB...why do we do it instead of going off somewhere to use that same time to practice more when it's the actual practice - and not the arguing on message boards - which will "deliver the goods"? To me that just reads as addiction to mentation. Which I confess I am heavily prone to doing...which is why I'm here I suppose instead sitting on my cushion right this minute (*looks guiltily at meditation cushion*) and practicing Anapana 8 hours a day. I'm addicted to a message board but does it help me realize Truth (ok...other than realizing the Truth that I've realized is that I've realized no Truth )? I'd say no it does not. And I bet these threads help people a lot less than if they were using that same time in actual practice.

 

Why do we all do it - get verbal - instead of practicing more?

 

Damn...maybe I'm arguing myself into spending less time on these boards and more time on the cushion...*is starting to feel real guilty*

[3bob]

[JustARandomPanda]

Yogiraj Gurunath specifically says we are the "Lightless Light". I've been wondering wth he means by that. I bet most people on this forum can't explain this particular phrase either.

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Rrw7bE_a4NY

[Vajrahridaya]

Yogiraj Gurunath specifically says we are the "Lightless Light". I've been wondering wth he means by that. I bet most people on this forum can't explain this particular phrase either.

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Rrw7bE_a4NY

 

It's the idea of a light without a cause.

[Vajrahridaya]

Maybe invisible light?

[C T]

Maybe he lost his matches?

 

_{(sorry bad joke... )}

[Vajrahridaya]

Maybe he lost his matches?

 

_{(sorry bad joke... )}

 

I think so.

[Birch]

Yogiraj Gurunath specifically says we are the "Lightless Light". I've been wondering wth he means by that. I bet most people on this forum can't explain this particular phrase either.

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Rrw7bE_a4NY

I'll take stab:-)

What he's doing is using "light" as a metaphor for awareness (conscious, I'd say). I think where it might get confusing is the extent to which folks understand that the metaphor is also the thing he's talking about.

I guess he's saying "lightless" to stop people confusing the kind of light they see with the other one that does the same in metaphor, but like i said, it's the same stuff.

Ok, now I've confused myself:-)

[C T]

 

Ok, now I've confused myself:-)

Do you ever notice how the mind quiets down when its absolutely confused? If it has not quiet down, it means you still have some way to go yet.... carry on!

[Vajrahridaya]

Do you ever notice how the mind quiets down when its absolutely confused? If it has not quiet down, it means you still have some way to go yet.... carry on!

 

Confusion can be good, except while operating heavy machinery. But, it's that space of uncertainty where one can open up and eureka can manifest.

 

 

 

[3bob]

Yogiraj Gurunath specifically says we are the "Lightless Light". I've been wondering what he means by that. I bet most people on this forum can't explain this particular phrase either.

 

Thank you for sharing that video Serene Blue,

 

This Master mentions the Divine "Mother" and that She can be said to deliver one to the threshold of "lightless Light", I fully agree and that is a major step (and work) of being attuned to a high vibration of pure light and truths. The next step is that of light going inside of light - this can not be done by the Mother for then She would not be, thus that is where one can not tread with their woven (aka created) beliefs and ideas or as Yogiraj Gurunath said or implied - the holding of desires for such beliefs or notions to take form, for such things are weavings from and variations of the Mothers light (or of the vast creation) which inludes time and space, and none of them can be taken across or pass through and remain in the "Lightless Light" where they are "swallowed" up.

 

Om

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[3bob]

V,

You disagree, so what, who really cares, such is only "correct" or true for you. (or birds of your feather who flock together, thus I suggest getting off it) Btw, your stated mental and emotional conditioning is incongruent with the quote you borrowed that uses the word "sacred". (among others)

[Vmarco]

V,

You disagree, so what, who really cares, such is only "correct" or true for you. (or birds of your feather who flock together, thus I suggest getting off it) Btw, your stated mental and emotional conditioning is incongruent with the quote you borrowed that uses the word "sacred". (among others)

 

I have no need for personal truths, relative truths, collective truths, etc.,...if something is not absolutely true, it's not worth having. Wise one's say,...relate with what will never leave you, and from what you can never leave.

 

I do understand that you have no interests other than that which makes your beliefs more palatable,...and that's OK,...there are many bodhisattva's working for your liberation.

 

The word sacred was applicable,...ie, sacred 2. devoted exclusively to one service or use as in a fund sacred to charity. 3. entitled to reverence and respect. 4. highly valued and important, a sacred responsibility. "Sacred space" is in reference to the Emptiness of Duality,...the yin or dark side of the T'ai chi T'u.

 

V

[3bob]

I have no need for personal truths, relative truths, collective truths, etc.,...if something is not absolutely true, it's not worth having. Wise one's say,...relate with what will never leave you, and from what you can never leave.

 

I do understand that you have no interests other than that which makes your beliefs more palatable,...and that's OK,...there are many bodhisattva's working for your liberation.

 

The word sacred was applicable,...ie, sacred 2. devoted exclusively to one service or use as in a fund sacred to charity. 3. entitled to reverence and respect. 4. highly valued and important, a sacred responsibility. "Sacred space" is in reference to the Emptiness of Duality,...the yin or dark side of the T'ai chi T'u.

 

V

 

Oh boy, sounds like you are another all knowing nut with claims to having the absolute truth, while the rest of us are below your condescending high-ness, just get off it already.

 

A definition from the Oxford dictionary, Divine: 1b. sacred (divine service)...

 

Since you want to play around with (change or deny) words and meanings to make your pov more palatable.

[Vmarco]

[Birch]

"Since you want to play around with (change or deny) words and meanings to make your pov more palatable. "

I thought that was the point of communication.

 

Oh crap, then I realise I'm supposed to say what I mean and do what I say. I tried that but since everyone else had said it first i failed.

[3bob]

I can respond to your game,...Divine, 1. of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god 2. being a deity <the divine Savior> 3. directed to a deity <divine worship> 4.heavenly, godlike

 

Must assume you're a theist who takes offense at anything true or honest that challenges the theist memes,...or one of those appeasers that enables theistic beliefs.

 

As Osho said, “Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. “Is there a God?” and you say, “Yes, God is.” Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, “I don’t know.”. . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge.”

 

As far as your statement, "another all knowing nut with claims to having the absolute truth." I'll tell you what theist,...I'll state an absolute truth,...you disprove it,...I'll give you a thousand dollars. What do say? Or is your nasty ad hominem the limit of your character?

 

Prove that "There is no Present in Time" is not an absolute truth. Come on,...theist. Show that you're honorable enough to prove that I'm "another all knowing nut with claims to having the absolute truth." And make yourself some cash doing it. What do have lose?

 

V

 

Wow V., you do have issues. (which I don't claim to be able to help you with)

 

Anyhow the "truth" problem for mankind has made countless rounds at this site yet there are those sounding like yourself that continue to come along to make claims to the Truth, along with their groupies or through such and such a teacher.

 

Ime a truth is that any Being regardless of their attainment can at best only point towards the Truth (or the Way) in helping another and in some cases possibly serve as a friend along that Way. Thus there is no absolute proof or disproof that can be pinned down with words, things or ideas for such are not nor will they ever be absolute. Btw, your asking for such proof says a lot about you and your continued incongruousness concerning same since you have also quoted some Zen that is counter to such.

 

 

 

 

Go in peace.