[TTC Study] Chapter 54 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 54

 

John Wu

 

What is well planted cannot be uprooted.

What is well embraced cannot slip away.

Your descendants will carry on the ancestral sacrifice for generations without end.

Cultivate Virtue in your own person,

And it becomes a genuine part of you.

Cultivate it in the family,

And it will abide.

Cultivate it in the community,

And it will live and grow.

Cultivate it in the state,

And it will flourish abundantly. Cultivate it in the world,

And it will become universal.

Hence, a person must be judged as person;

A family as family;

A community as community;

A state as state;

The world as world.

How do I know about the world?

By what is within me.

 

 

English/Feng

 

What is firmly established cannot be uprooted.

What is firmly grasped cannot slip away.

It will be honored from generation to generation.

Cultivate Virtue in your self,

And Virtue will be real.

Cultivate it in the family,

And Virtue will abound.

Cultivate it in the village,

And Virtue will grow.

Cultivate it in the nation,

And Virtue will be abundant.

Cultivate it in the universe,

And Virtue will be everywhere.

Therefore look at the body as body;

Look at the family as family;

Look at the village as village;

Look at the nation as nation;

Look at the universe as universe.

How do I know the universe is like this?

By looking!

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

What is firmly set up can't be pulled down;

What is firmly embraced cannot slip free.

And your sons and grandsons, as a result, will sacrifice without end.

When you cultivate it in your person, your virtue will then be genuine;

When you cultivate it in your family, your virtue will then be overflow;

When you cultivate it in your village, your virtue will then be long lasting;

When you cultivate it in your state, your virtue will then be abundant;

And when you cultivate it throughout the world, your virtue will then be widespread.

Use the individual to examine the individual;

Use the family to examine the family;

Use the village to examine the village;

Use the state to examine the state;

And use the world to examine the world;

How do I know that the world is so?

By this.

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

How do I know about the world?

By what is within me.

 

English/Feng

 

How do I know the universe is like this?

By looking!

 

Robert Henricks

 

How do I know that the world is so?

By this.

Chuang Zhu

 

Let's go back to your original question, please.

You asked me how I know what fish enjoy,

so you already knew I knew it when you asked the question.

I know it by standing here beside the Hao.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Zhu

 

Let's go back to your original question, please.

You asked me how I know what fish enjoy,

so you already knew I knew it when you asked the question.

I know it by standing here beside the Hao.

 

Yep. Some things we know without knowing.

 

I have one Koi fish that loves to play. He will flop around then break surface a few times then flop a little more and he is done until the next time he is inspired.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 54 Cultivation

1. One who's good in building a foundation cannot be pulled it out.

2. One who's good in embracing it will not loose it.

3. The offspring performs memorial service to honor the ancestors will not cease.

 

4. Cultivated it to oneself, his virtue is real.

5. Cultivated it to a family, his virtue is excess.

6. Cultivated it to a hometown, his virtue is forever.

7. Cultivated it to a country, his virtue is abundant.

8. Cultivated it to the world, his virtue is common.

9. Therefore,

 

10. Using myself to observe others;

11. Using my family to observe other families;

12. Using my hometown to observe other towns;

13. Using my country to observe other countries;

14. Using my territory to observe other territories;

15. How do I know what is going on around me...???

16. From all these...!!!

 

Note: Lines 4 through 16 were referred to the foundation in lines 1 through 3.

 

Chapter 54

1. 善建者不拔

2. 善抱者不脫。

3. 子孫以祭祀不輟。

4. 修之於身其德乃真。

5. 修之於家其德乃餘。

6. 修之於鄉其德乃長。

7. 修之於邦其德乃豐。

8. 修之於天下其德乃普。

9. 故

10.以身觀身，

11.以家觀家，

12.以鄉觀鄉，

13.以邦觀邦，

14.以天下觀天下。

15.吾何以知天下然哉﹖

16.以此。

Edited July 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

By what is within me.

 

English/Feng

 

By looking!

 

Robert Henricks

 

By this.

Chuang Zhu

 

I know it by standing here beside the Hao.

16. From all these...!!!

 

16.以此

以 is the preposition "in it" because 以 indicates a implicit omitted pronoun "it" character (zhi).

此 is the demonstrative "this (here)"

The personal subject character is often omitted at the beginning of a sentence.

 

I'm in it here!

 

I think that this translation corresponds to the Chuang Tzu answer.

He stands beside the Hao and Lao Tzu is in the world here.

Edited July 25, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Chapter 54 Cultivation

1. One who's good in building a foundation cannot be pulled it out.

 

Clean up Line 1 grammatically and I would say you have a good translation.

[Marblehead]

以 is the preposition "in it" because 以 indicates a implicit omitted pronoun "it" character (zhi).

此 is the demonstrative "this (here)"

The personal subject character is often omitted at the beginning of a sentence.

 

I'm in it here!

 

I think that this translation corresponds to the Chuang Tzu answer.

He stands beside the Hao and Lao Tzu is in the world here.

 

I forget who it was, maybe Lin Yutang, but they had some really nice notes to line 16 that totally satisfied me.

 

Actually, of the three original translations, I like John Wu's more than any other. Of course, he may have taken the liberty to add words that were not there.

[lienshan]

I like John Wu's more than any other. Of course, he may have taken the liberty to add words that were not there.

Was the river Hao inside Chuang Zhu?

 

I do know, that he had a butterfly dream, but ...

[Marblehead]

Was the river Hao inside Chuang Zhu?

 

I do know, that he had a butterfly dream, but ...

 

There is a Hao River. It was initially an irrigation moat. It is in the area where Cuang Tzu lived so he likely knew of it and probably even fished it.

 

Now the butterfly? Your guess is as good as mine. He was a free spirit thought so dreaming of being a butterfly isn't all that unrealistic.

[ChiDragon]

"1. One who's good in building a foundation cannot be pulled it out."

 

Clean up Line 1 grammatically and I would say you have a good translation.

Thanks. I'll do.

 

1. 善建者不拔

1. One who can establish a good foundation will be indestructible.

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Thanks. I'll do.

 

1. 善建者不拔

1. One who can establish a good foundation will be indestructible.

 

Good.

 

(I don't know if that is true or not but that doesn't matter. Hehehe.)

 

(It has been said that everyone has a breaking point.)

[ChiDragon]

Good.

 

1. (I don't know if that is true or not but that doesn't matter. Hehehe.)

 

2. (It has been said that everyone has a breaking point.)

 

1. It was only an inspirational philosophical statement.

 

2. In a practical sense, yes, my practical man....

[dawei]

Thanks. I'll do.

 

1. 善建者不拔

1. One who can establish a good foundation will be indestructible.

 

Good.

How does it read to you: Which is indestructible?

 

The "one who can" or the "good foundation" ?

 

When I read it, it reads as the "one who can is indestructible" which I think should be the latter instead.

Edited July 26, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

How does it read to you: Which is indestructible?

 

The "one who can" or the "good foundation" ?

 

When I read it, it reads as the "one who can is indestructible" which I think should be the latter instead.

 

Fair questions.

 

I must first state that I do not believe in any form of immortality. Our body will be destroyed.

 

However, if we build a good foundation (life philosophy), no matter what our encounters we will always have our foundation we can fall back to in order to regroup and state again.

 

Therefore I agree with you. Though we may have a good foundation, if we stray too far and venture into the world of the hungry tiger we will be eaten alive. Thus we must hold to our foundation at all times so that we have the guidance and support of that foundation when the strong winds begin to blow.

 

But the cycles of life and death dictate that we all will die. If we remain strong to our foundation we will live to our greatest potential and never face premature death.

[ChiDragon]

How does it read to you: Which is indestructible?

 

The "one who can" or the "good foundation" ?

 

When I read it, it reads as the "one who can is indestructible" which I think should be the latter instead.

1. 善建者不拔

1. One who can establish a good foundation will be indestructible.

 

I guess the word "establish" was left out, purposely, to twist the original meaning again.

[dawei]

1. 善建者不拔

1. One who can establish a good foundation will be indestructible.

 

I guess the word "establish" was left out, purposely, to twist the original meaning again.

I don't follow.

 

The line ends with "indestructible". I asked, "which is indesctructible"?

 

Either it is the "One" or it is the "Foundation".

 

I was not asking anything about establish. I was not quoting the line. I put quotes around the choices to show what I was asking.

 

I asked MH and apparently MH understood what I asked.

 

If you don't understand what I am asking, just ask for some clarification. Maybe it's an english convention of comparing with quotes which was not understood. I was not trying to quote the entire line again but which one was the "subject" of being indestructible.

 

----

 

I think I now see what your referring to, when I wrote:

"one who can is indestructible"

 

I was not quoting the original line. I was paraphrasing what I saw as the subject (one) to indestructible.

 

If I had paraphrased the other possible subject, it would of read:

"A good foundation is indescructible"

 

I was NOT quoting the original line but reducing it to the subject.

Edited July 26, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

1. 善建者不拔

2. 善抱者不脫

The founder of goodness doesn't uproot.

The keeper of goodness doesn't drop.

[ChiDragon]

I don't follow.

 

The line ends with "indestructible". I asked, "which is indesctructible"?

 

Either it is the "One" or it is the "Foundation".

 

I was not asking anything about establish. I was not quoting the line. I put quotes around the choices to show what I was asking.

 

I asked MH and apparently MH understood what I asked.

 

If you don't understand what I am asking, just ask for some clarification. Maybe it's an english convention of comparing with quotes which was not understood. I was not trying to quote the entire line again but which one was the "subject" of being indestructible.

 

----

 

I think I now see what your referring to, when I wrote:

"one who can is indestructible"

 

I was not quoting the original line. I was paraphrasing what I saw as the subject (one) to indestructible.

 

If I had paraphrased the other possible subject, it would of read:

"A good foundation is indescructible"

 

I was NOT quoting the original line but reducing it to the subject.

 

I see what you are asking now. However, it is obvious that LaoTze was not talking a human body that is indestructible. It was not logical anyway. "Establishing a good foundation" was a metaphor implicating that someone had made a preparation to be good at something. e.g. If one went to school to earn a degree in Engineering, it was said to be that one has established a good foundation for his/her education. Thus something one had learned is unforgettable(indestructible).

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. 善建者不拔

2. 善抱者不脫

 

The founder of goodness doesn't uproot.

The keeper of goodness doesn't drop.

leinshan...

I know what you had done here, but you are a bit confused with the sentence structure here.

 

Line 1 is about a builder is good at building a foundation. A good foundation cannot be uprooted.

It was not talking about a "founder of goodness". Anyway, what is a "founder of goodness"...???

[dawei]

However, it is obvious that LaoTze was not talking a human body that is indestructible. It was not logical anyway.

But your sentence is saying the ONE WHO CAN ... is INDESTRUCTIBLE.

 

So the way you translate, you are saying the body is indestructible. If you mean it is the foundation which is indestructible then it needs some change.

 

Maybe like: One can establish a good foundation which will be indestructible.

[ChiDragon]

But your sentence is saying the ONE WHO CAN ... is INDESTRUCTIBLE.

 

So the way you translate, you are saying the body is indestructible. If you mean it is the foundation which is indestructible then it needs some change.

 

Maybe like: One can establish a good foundation which will be indestructible.

 

Okay, I thinking I am learning how the Westerns think as oppose to Easterners.

 

Let me try again. Since a person has established a good foundation in Engineering, he is capable of answering any question by a challenger. Metaphorically or philosophically, it can be said that he is indestructible, no...??? However, if he cannot answer any question, then it can be said that he is destructible because people can step all over him.

 

The reason that "WHO" was included in the translation was because of the character "者" is in the phrase. It must be included in the context.

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The reason that "WHO" was included in the translation was because of the character "者" is in the phrase. It must be included in the context.

I only was trying to see what was the "indestructible" connected to. So you want it to to connect to the "One Who", not to 'good foundation'.

 

Yes, I know why you used WHO. But it is not required.

 

One could say:

"The well established will be indestructible"

 

'One who' is implied with "The".

 

Ni uses "What is" to generalize the "One Who" idea:

What is well planted cannot be pulled up.

 

 

Chan is probably the most correct with his association of a person established in Dao:

He who is well established (in Tao) cannot be pulled away.

Edited July 26, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

but you are a bit confused with the sentence structure here.

Try consider that you are a bit confused with the sentence structure here.

 

Anyway, what is a "founder of goodness"...???

"The keeper of goodness doesn't drop" means someone regarding "goodness" as charity,

giving materials to the poor, but only donating to himself or herself.

"The founder of goodness doesn't uproot" isn't the opposite as I read the lines,

because to him or her is goodness something immaterial and can't thus be uprooted.

[ChiDragon]

Oh, my goodness...!!!

[Marblehead]

Have Y'all noticed that I am not saying anything?