What's the point of perfect presence?

[Mizu]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Thank you for sharing, I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

 

is it simply to "See things as they truly are" so our minds don't hurt us with illusions / fear / mis-perceptions, or is there more to it? Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

thank you

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mizu

[Informer]

Are you looking to attain something for your repertoire of what you are?

 

Like you are this, this, this, and now you can be this too?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Thank you for sharing, I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

 

is it simply to "See things as they truly are" so our minds don't hurt us with illusions / fear / mis-perceptions, or is there more to it? Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

thank you

 

It's important to learn more about what no-mind actually is before going to a teacher, in my opinion. There are a lot of abstract and incomplete understandings and applications of it, and you'll find that when you read things like the Lankavatara Sutra, the Sutra of Hui Neng, and Secret of the Golden Flower that these generalizations and misunderstandings existed in the teaching even during the early days of Buddhism and Taoism.

 

One of the first things that stands out is that they warn against merely cultivating thoughtlessness as this leads to a zombie like stupor rather than a deeper realization of our existence. Though during meditation, your thoughts will eventually cease and be replaced by a conscious internal and external awareness, this is not the end in itself. There are numerous other ways to grow personally that are involved which require more than just stilling the mind.

 

One important teaching on this was in the Sutra of Hui Neng where he somewhat echoes the Lankavatara when he says not to follow teachings of "thoughtlessness" but of "idea-lessness."

 

I think the best I can do is just to leave it at that say read the books I mentioned above. Get it from the source, and use Cleary translations when possible. There are many other good translators but Cleary is usually more modern and coming from an immensely broad knowledge base, whereas some older ones knew very little about the terminology.

 

Best

[Aetherous]

One important teaching on this was in the Sutra of Hui Neng where he somewhat echoes the Lankavatara when he says not to follow teachings of "thoughtlessness" but of "idea-lessness."

 

That's interesting. At least personally, I'd prefer to do the opposite. It's enjoyable to have a clear mind...and it's useful to have ideas.

 

Will check the Lankavatara sutra...

 

...

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Well, having a mind that's disturbed isn't enjoyable or healthy.

 

Instead of cultivating something that you don't have, it's a cultivation of the peaceful and natural state of your own mind.

[Sunya]

Ya. The point of cultivating a peaceful mind in Buddhist practice is to first, well, attain some peace for once (haha). But it's a step by step process. It's not the end goal. Once you can rest in stillness, you then begin insight meditation, like contemplating no-self and emptiness or practicing letting go into awareness and integrating that state into actions. A quiet mind in and of itself won't lead to wisdom, but it's a nice pit stop on the way there.

[Otis]

Personally, I don't see any way to "see things as they truly are". Nor do I see a way to check if my "seeing" is correct.

 

But, I do think it's worthwhile doubting the beliefs I have, thus far, and debunking the ones that don't make sense. In particular, I seek to de-link the beliefs from the panic/grasping habits that are attached to them. This isn't about attaining a specific clear view, as much as it just removing the emotional importance from my current views, and watching how many of them fall apart, without my neediness to prop them up. Things get clearer, without me trying to attain anything.

 

Also, rather than trying to attain any kind of constant state, I merely do my best to pay attention to what's going on, and if I observe myself grasping, then I try to remind myself gently, that there is an alternative. I don't try to force my attention or an outcome, because that is just my ego trying to dominate the rest of me, and that seems to be precisely what's gotten me into this mess. So I seek to reduce my ego's function, by not trying to control myself, but just remind myself, and practice not being beholden to panic/grasping.

[Adishakti]

Hi Mizu, I'm aiming for liberation because I know of nothing else which attracts me more. I like to clean my insides of ego, impatience etc. ...reach that stage of perfection within. If you find something else attractive, go for it. Get into meditation when it naturally calls you. Until then be careful not to care about healing, or Samadhi.

 

The end result: After years (or lifetimes) of practice you might achieve nothing or everything. 'Nothing' is more likely.

 

 

I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

[suninmyeyes]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Thank you for sharing, I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

 

is it simply to "See things as they truly are" so our minds don't hurt us with illusions / fear / mis-perceptions, or is there more to it? Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

thank you

I dont know Mizu,sometimes I think that we are all like some type of crazy fish swimming in the ocean but for some reason thinking that we cant swim ,although we are swimming already.

[rex]

So you can respond appropriately to the conditions and circumtsances you find yourself in instead of reacting and blundering around.

[forestofclarity]

I think the title to this thread is a little misleading. You can be present whether the mind is quiet or not. It is easier, especially at the beginning, when it is quiet.

[C T]

There appears to be immense purpose to living a lie, and living in the self-grandeur of delusional stories. People can weave tales out of living such lives, and fill their days, and nights, with distraction after distraction after distraction, so the mind is always neither here nor there.

 

Most people cant stand being idly alone, and accepting the idleness without a tinge of guilt, as if its wrong to be doing nothing in particular. Its okay to be idle sometimes, to let everything settle into their own state without us always trying to manipulate outcomes.

 

 

During those rare moments when one can can just sit, and go, "Aah... wonderful peace - just as it is" - there is really no purpose, no motive attached to this at all. Such instances of bejeweled stillness, of presence, is self-fulfilling... one no longer become overly concerned with where such moments lead.

 

Simply letting things be...

[Vmarco]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

 

For you, the goal may be simply to check it out,...check out what some have been talking about.

 

The term mind is looked at many ways. When many say mind, they're talking about the cerebra-centric, sciential mind that arises from the brain,...when the ancient Greeks said mind, they pointed to the center of the chest and said "thymos."

 

Basically, you do not want no-mind,...you want to quiet the brain so to uncover the Heart-Mind.

 

The term mind is as misunderstood as light. We see a physical (divided) light of Duality's electrodynamic spectrum,...but there is a purer light, the Undivided Light upon which duality effects its motion.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19563-oxymorons-that-hinder-awakening/page__st__32

 

ACIM says,..."the ego uses the body to conspire against your Mind (in this context the Mind has no relation to brain), and because the ego realizes that its 'enemy' (the Mind) can end them both (ego and body) merely by recognizing they are not part of You (the Mind), they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves.

The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the Mind, which is real, that the Mind is ego's learning device; and further, that the body is more real then the Mind is.

No one in their right Mind could possibly believe this, and no one in Their 'right Mind' does believe it"

[awake]

.

Edited July 26, 2011 by awake

[thelerner]

I don't know about perfect presence, but I find the quieter the mind, the better I function. Even when I need the 'mind' to plan, figure, or remember; if its quiet while doing the command I get better results.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm not sure what perfect presence means in other traditions, but the practice that the term relates to for me is no so much "no-mind" but more towards "fullness of mind." "Mindfullness" seems to involve many other variables of the Dharma such as true compassion and things. By "fullness of mind" I mean to say that perfect presence is to suspend other competing desires to focus on the present. When the mind is engaged in too many things at once it can be brought entirely into the present.

 

It's possible to be present when things need to be distracted from. When there are things to do we do them, and when we're not doing them nor preparing for them, nor coming up with other things to do, it's possible to be present in what we're doing. Like what we're doing just riding the subway. Not really doing anything, but it's possible to be there. To do that every time something is done... I don't know.. Do monks do that 100% of this waking moment?..

[Birch]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Thank you for sharing, I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

 

is it simply to "See things as they truly are" so our minds don't hurt us with illusions / fear / mis-perceptions, or is there more to it? Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

thank you

 

It's just quieter 'up there' :-)

Oh, and maybe not so many silly ideas. A bit less annoyed in general.

[xabir2005]

 

Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?

 

Thank you for sharing, I Want to know if it will be worth my while to work to achieve this goal of Continually Still Presence... and what it does...

 

is it simply to "See things as they truly are" so our minds don't hurt us with illusions / fear / mis-perceptions, or is there more to it? Like Samadhi or healing or anything else like that?

 

thank you

It is to realize your own mind essence. Your buddha-nature. All efforts must be directed towards the goal of knowing yourself... All samadhis and powers and experiences are merely side-effects and not the main thing. In fact if you are chasing after some evanescent experiences, you will fail to realize who and what you truly are. Presence is a term for your essence.

 

You should really read and practice this:

 

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/publications/who_am_i.html

 

And my e-book: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html

[deci belle]

Mizu sez: "Hey all, what is the point of continually working to quiet the mind, and attain a constant state of "no-mind" in the world.. is this beneficial at all? What's the end goal of this?"

 

No mind is what you already got down, Mizu. It's not work— it's observing thoughts. Trying to control results in further compounded insanity.

 

Not controlling, but employing conscious observation of what's stirring up as a result of a life-time of habitual dependence on following delusion.

 

The problem isn't ego or intellectualism, it's habitual behavior. Ego constitutes the conditional matrix of self-reflective habit-consciousness, but one cannot attack ego directly— on the contrary, the process of self-refinement is a matter of clarifying habitual mental activity while simultaneously shoring up and sanitizing ego. It is a matter of training ego.

 

Adapting to the constant state of everyday ordinary affairs without involving ego isn't even the goal— it is the means to self-refinement.

 

The end goal of self refinement is about your imminent demise. It's about your death.

 

Essence is unborn, uncreated, yet aware. This awareness is itself what constitutes your awareness right here and now as you read these words.

 

It is your choice to deal with circumstances or deal with potential living awareness. Since it is selfless, only selflessness is admitted. Through one's gradual efforts in self-refinement, one's habitual, karmic consciousness is clarified to a point where one begins to partake in the process of creative evolution as one continues to walk the path that wears out the sandals you were brought here to wear out.

 

Perfect presence is being at the epicenter of equipoise. Perfect presence is simply a matter of being harmonious before emotions act and balanced once they do act. Perfect presence is the state of readiness. Readiness without bias or inclination. Perfect presence is resting in potential, whereby spontaneity is the natural response to affairs.

 

Desireless action is spiritual because it is not dependent on thought. It is like knowledge. It is instantaneous, without forethought— hence, it is non-psychological. Why don't people know why the non-psychological is spiritual?

 

Harmonious Emptiness said:

"It's important to learn more about what no-mind actually is before going to a teacher, in my opinion. There are a lot of abstract and incomplete understandings and applications of it, and you'll find that when you read things like the Lankavatara Sutra, the Sutra of Hui Neng, and Secret of the Golden Flower that these generalizations and misunderstandings existed in the teaching even during the early days of Buddhism and Taoism.

 

One of the first things that stands out is that they warn against merely cultivating thoughtlessness as this leads to a zombie like stupor rather than a deeper realization of our existence. Though during meditation, your thoughts will eventually cease and be replaced by a conscious internal and external awareness, this is not the end in itself. There are numerous other ways to grow personally that are involved which require more than just stilling the mind.

 

One important teaching on this was in the Sutra of Hui Neng where he somewhat echoes the Lankavatara when he says not to follow teachings of "thoughtlessness" but of "idea-lessness."

 

I think the best I can do is just to leave it at that say read the books I mentioned above. Get it from the source, and use Cleary translations when possible. There are many other good translators but Cleary is usually more modern and coming from an immensely broad knowledge base, whereas some older ones knew very little about the terminology."

❤!!

 

(ed: add HE's post)

Edited July 30, 2011 by deci belle