[TTC Study] Chapter 55 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[stan herman]

55. The one who walks the way is not complex. He is able to withstand attack whether blunt or subtle. Whether required to press forward or to yield, his power is evident. Unthreatening as a child, yet his potential can be sensed.

 

Though he suffers a hundred frustrations his stamina raises him up again. Though he is forced a hundred times to shout his case his voice remains inexhaustible and fresh.

 

Striving with all his might he does not revere his success nor brood its lack. He leads a charmed life, at ease with events. It is not his will that makes him strong, but his nature. Depending on his will he would weaken.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 55
1. To encompass the deep virtue of Tao,
2. Is comparable to a new born infant.
3. Not stung by poisonous insects,
4. Not clawed by wild animals,
5. Not grabbed by big birds,
6. Weak bones and soft muscles but with tight fists,
7. Not knowing the copulation of male and female but self erected.
8. Because of the tremendous energy,
9. The infant cries all day and the voice doesn't become hoarse,
10. It was the sign of harmony.
11. Knowing it's in harmony was said to be in the normal development.
12. Knowing it's normal development was said to be profound.
13. Craving to cling onto life was said to be inauspicious.
14. Wishing to force harmony upon someone was said to be an act of bravado.
15. The things that are too strong will become senescent;
16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.
17. Those who are not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

1. 含德之厚,
2. 比於赤子。
3. 毒蟲不螫，
4. 猛獸不據，
5. 攫鳥不摶。
6. 骨弱筋柔而握固。
7. 未知牝牡之合而全作，
8. 精之至也。
9. 終日號而不嗄，
10.和之至也。
11.知和曰常。
12.知常曰明。
13.益生曰祥。
14.心使氣曰強。
15.物壯則老。
16.謂之不道，
17.不道早已。

Edited March 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Have I mentioned how much I like that word/concept "harmony"?

[stan herman]

I find this verse particularly interesting. It is one of the few (or the only?) that seems to prize the masculine (yang) in a way similar to our times (e.g. "His manhood is strong." "He does not yet know the meeting of male and female, yet his organ is aroused". My impression is that translators of the Tao, with few exceptions, are oriented toward the yin (i.e. receptivity and passivity). Does this give evidence that while Lao Tzu favored the yin view, he as most philosophers, was constrained by certain fundamental attitudes of his time?

[Marblehead]

Does this give evidence that while Lao Tzu favored the yin view, he as most philosophers, was constrained by certain fundamental attitudes of his time?

 

I think that was his honest understandings. I think Chuang Tzu supported this understanding as well. How does it go? ... Know Yang but rest in Yin?

[on the path]

Hi,

 

Just add my favorite version of the DDJ from Flowing hands here to add to the discussion.

 

He who is at one with the Dao experiences all things,

therefore the Sage is whole;

he experiences the union of man and woman,

so he knows of the ways of mankind.

Without this, he is not following the way of nature.

The Sage is one of the ten thousand things, but his grip on the Dao is firm.

 

Having experienced all things, he can obtain enlightenment.

Through enlightenment, he can become Divine.

 

Knowing balance and harmony is insight into constancy.

Do not complicate your life.

This only causes stress and fatigue and ill-health will surely follow.

This is not the way of Dao.

Dwell in simplicity and enjoy a contended, peaceful life.

 

Whatever goes against the Dao will never last.

 

 

I think what is written is self explanatory,but is certainly different from the other translations.

[Marblehead]

I think what is written is self explanatory,but is certainly different from the other translations.

 

Yes, I have noticed that Flowing Hands work is more of an interpretation rather than a literal translation. This is good though as he (she?) has used more everyday, practical language to present the concepts.

 

Of what you have posted so far of the Chapters I see no serious straying from the original concepts.

 

Keep up the good work. Gives us more possibilities for discussion.

[dawei]

I would say at times Flowing Hands takes a Shengong perspective. These lines are not commonly found as a translation but as a deeper meaning even very few outside of Shengong/Neigong/Medical Qigong training would come up with it:

 

Having experienced all things, he can obtain enlightenment.

Through enlightenment, he can become Divine.

 

What I disagree with is how most translators shift the meaning of the next lines when the structure is still parallel; I will show English/Feng as an example.

 

和之至也 - This is perfect harmony.

知和曰常 - Knowing harmony is constancy.

知常曰明 - Knowing constancy is enlightenment.

益生曰祥 - It is not wise to rush about.

心使氣曰強 - Controlling the breath causes strain.

 

After the comment on harmony, there are four parallel lines which I would read all in the positive about harmony; most translators shift the last two lines to be negative when it's not there. These lines are stated in the positive sense, like the two preceding lines particularly if read in light of the entire passage meaning of Harmony, Vitality, Vigor. Heshang Gong uses a phrases of "Harmonious Breath". Looking at these next two lines more, note the word Qi below.

 

益生曰祥

Yi Sheng Yue Xiang

Benefit Life Said Auspicious

 

心使氣曰強

Xin Shi Qi Yue Qiang

Heart Enabled Qi Said Vigorous

 

My Qigong master often says 'the heart qi is the most invigorating'. I see the same being said here in the last line. It completes the whole point being made.

 

If I look for some very early commentators on these lines, I find a surprising positive translation. The modern translation movement wants these negative. Here are two early translations:

 

Susuki and Carus

To know the harmonious is called the eternal.

To know the eternal is called enlightenment.

To increase life is called a blessing,

and heart-directed vitality is called strength,

 

Addis & Lombardo

Knowing harmony is called endurance.

Knowing endurance is called illumination.

Increasing life is called fortune.

Mind controlling energy is called power.

 

It is not until the next line that the contrast is made:

but things vigorous are about to grow old...

Edited July 28, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

John Wu:

To be overgrown is to decay.

All this is against Tao,

And whatever is against Tao soon ceases to be.

 

English/Feng:

If too much energy is used, exhaustion follows.

This is not the way of Tao.

Whatever is contrary to Tao will not last long.

 

Robert Henricks:

When things reach their prime they get old;

This is called "not the Way."

What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

ChiDragon:

15. The things that are too strong will become senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Those who are not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

Are these four translations make any sense and logical....??? IMO I think line 15 need to be reconsidered in the translation...!!!

Edited July 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Re: Line 15. I remember looking over this line and wondering about it. I will look more as I am traveling back from a trip.

 

Hendricks makes the least sense, sounding like, when you grow old, your outside the following Dao. I tend to like English/Feng's base meaning.

[ChiDragon]

John Wu:

To be overgrown is to decay.

All this is against Tao,

And whatever is against Tao soon ceases to be.

 

English/Feng:

If too much energy is used, exhaustion follows.

This is not the way of Tao.

Whatever is contrary to Tao will not last long.

 

Robert Henricks:

When things reach their prime they get old;

This is called "not the Way."

What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

ChiDragon:

15. The things that are too strong will become senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Those who are not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

Are these four translations make any sense and logical....??? IMO I think line 15 need to be reconsidered in the translation...!!!

 

Now, I remember. My original translation for line 15 was:

15. The things that are too strong will become senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Those who are not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

It seems to me without the word "too" in line 15 would throw lines 16 and 17 out of context. By saying "too strong" would indicate something that was over developed which shows abnormality. Hence, it will bring lines 16 and 17 into context.

[dawei]

Re: Line 15. I remember looking over this line and wondering about it. I will look more as I am traveling back from a trip.

 

Hendricks makes the least sense, sounding like, when you grow old, your outside the following Dao. I tend to like English/Feng's base meaning.

I like what Ni writes:

To hasten growth is to hasten decay

[Marblehead]

I like what Ni writes:

To hasten growth is to hasten decay

 

I think this is a valid generalized statement.

[ChiDragon]

I like what Ni writes:

To hasten growth is to hasten decay

I like that too and I would like to borrow his words and revise my translation for line 15.

 

15. Hasten grown then is hasten senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

15.物壯則老。

16.謂之不道，

17.不道早已。

[dawei]

What I disagree with is how most translators shift the meaning of the next lines when the structure is still parallel;

. . .

 

After the comment on harmony, there are four parallel lines which I would read all in the positive about harmony; most translators shift the last two lines to be negative when it's not there.

I found internal support for my argument, in Chapter 30.

 

Both this chapter 55 and Chapter 30 end with the same three lines. Prior to those three lines, both chapters have a parallel repetition of sayings. In Chapter 30, everyone translates these repetitions similarly; yet in Chapter 55 most translations change the last two in the repetition to be negative. So it is clear to me that the common way of handling those two lines is not consistent to Chapter 30. I am now satisfied with my thinking that the parallel lines leading up to the last three should be understood in the positive sense.

Edited July 29, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Are these four translations make any sense and logical....??? IMO I think line 15 need to be reconsidered in the translation...!!!

General response based on this point.

 

I think all three ending lines need to be reconsidered. I have not like the traditional way of handling them but have not resolved that until my recent closer look at the lines preceding it. Now I have come to a better understanding once those previous lines are all translated in the positive, for example:

 

Susuki and Carus

To know the harmonious is called the eternal.

To know the eternal is called enlightenment.

To increase life is called a blessing,

and heart-directed vitality is called strength,

 

----

 

So, how to end the next three lines?

 

15.物壯則老。

Things Robust Then Old/Of long Standing/Outdated

Eventually, all things develop Vigor and then will diminish [in return]

 

16.謂之不道，

Meaning it not Dao

Call this not [eternally in accordance with] Dao

 

17.不道早已。

Not Dao Long-Time

[This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao

 

The body can function for only so long, as all the ten thousand; it is unable to fully live according to the principles; its manifested Way is running it's path and goes forth and then returns. It is said to live, develop it's vigor and then return to its source. To live and die is natural.

 

Some interesting pre-Han uses of "Bu Dao":

道昭而不道 – the dao manifested is not Dao (borrow a bit from Legge)

不道之道 – The way that is not to be trodden (yet again, borrow)

不道卑 – not inferior [to] dao (yet again; note similarity to the last line)

Edited July 29, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

15.物壯則老。

Things Robust Then Old/Of long Standing/Outdated

Eventually, all things develop Vigor and then will diminish [in return]

 

老: old in line 15 implies it get old quickly. I know eventually will lead to death but not yet indicated within context. Even though, it was acceptable philosophically. However, it was said in line 17, why do did you translate it as "will diminish" in this line(15)...???

 

 

16.謂之不道，

Meaning it not Dao

Call this not [eternally in accordance with] Dao

Meaning and 謂(call) are not the same, is it proper to interchange their meaning...???

 

 

17.不道早已。

Not Dao Long-Time

[This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao

 

不道: Not following the principles of Tao; not tao like manner,

早已: Die sooner or perish prematurely

 

A. [This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao

 

B. It was said to be not in accordance with Tao. Those who are not in accordance with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

Even though, the final result will be the same on both statements. Philosophically, which line, A or B would be more direct in stating the main idea in the text....???

Edited July 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

15.物壯則老。

Things Robust Then Old/Of long Standing/Outdated

Eventually, all things develop Vigor and then will diminish [in return]

 

老: old in line 15 implies it get old quickly. I know eventually will lead to death but not yet indicated within context. Even though, it was acceptable philosophically. However, it was said in line 17, why do did you translate it as "will diminish" in this line(15)...???

It it indicated from beginning to end; It opens with a newborn and transitions to enlightenment; Movement to stillness. There is only ONE option now; Return to source. You truly don't see it? The only logical next line is one which says, we are going home...

 

Many translators write it along the line as Chan:

After things reach their prime, things begin to grow old

 

In that sense, I follow this basic idea. To grow old is to turn the corner on reaching prime (Chan); on the downhill of decay (Ni and Wu); towards exhaustion (English/Feng); diminish [the body] (me). It is all the same meaning.

 

We don't see line 17 the same, so maybe you just don't follow my point.

 

 

 

16.謂之不道，

Meaning it not Dao

Call this not [eternally in accordance with] Dao

Meaning and 謂(call) are not the same, is it proper to interchange their meaning...???

Here is a simple gloss:

to tell / to say / to name / to call / to think / to be of the opinion / to assume / meaning / sense /

 

These two are the same:

I call this diminishing the body

I mean this as diminishing the body

 

 

 

17.不道早已。

Not Dao Long-Time

[This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao

 

不道: Not following the principles of Tao; not tao like manner,

早已: Die sooner or perish prematurely

 

A. [This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao

 

B. It was said to be not in accordance with Tao. Those who are not in accordance with Tao will perish prematurely.

 

Even though, the final result will be the same on both statements. Philosophically, which line, A or B would be more direct in stating the main idea in the text....???

They are very OPPOSITE !!

 

To perish prematurely is NOT to perish in your time. You hold the former meaning and I hold the later meaning.

 

The only same final result is death. But mine is natural from start to end. It is not so much "not in accordance with Dao" as much as it is the manifested dao'ing is not the eternal Dao; one perishes in it's own time.

 

I don't find any logic to the idea the chapter opening with talking about a newborn and enlightenment to turning it all around in the end to suggest perishing prematurely. That makes no sense to me.

 

Again, it may be something only I see in this chapter. I don't care if anyone agrees but maybe someone will actually see the potential for this idea.

[ChiDragon]

line 2. 比於赤子。

赤子(red son or child): an infant(as a classic definition).

 

What I am saying was:

It was the hasten senescent which is not in accordance with Tao that will cause something to perish prematurely.

 

15. Hasten grown then is hasten senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

[dawei]

line 2. 比於赤子。

赤子(red son or child): an infant(as a classic definition).

 

What I am saying was:

It was the hasten senescent which is not in accordance with Tao that will cause something to perish prematurely.

 

15. Hasten grown then is hasten senescent;

16. It was said to be not in accord with Tao.

17. Not in accord with Tao will perish prematurely.

I know that is your interpretation (and traditional view). Mine is that there is not hastening but reaching the prime or peak, and then a reversal.

 

That is why I said our ideas are opposite.

 

Based on Chapter 30, the idea of hastening ceases to many any sense to me.

Edited July 30, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter 55

 

All Mouth Virtue, the greatly one, is intimated to the golden son!

The erectile tail and the fangs of a bee aren't poisonous?

Seized birds and frightened animals aren't domesticated?

The bones weaken, the muscles soften and the grip solidifies?

Not yet knowing the union of female and male is the arrival of the penis outraging semen?

To breathe one's last however not hoarse is to reach an agreement!

An agreement means to agree to common knowledge meaning an obvious advantage!

A birth means to breathe a sigh of relief meaning a powerful being!

Large along with old is correct called not walking!

 

 

The lines ending with "?" are sarcastic meant and the lines ending with "!" are not.

I think that his main target are especially these lines in "the Great One gives birth to water" text:

 

Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything.

A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything.

 

Heaven and Dao value what's completed of weakness and naiveness by benefitting what's giving birth.

To appreciate the hard of stabbing the strong is like to profit the soft of assisting the weak.

 

The highest low of east and south acts powerful. (The "golden/red/southern" son is nicknaming the Son of Heaven)

[Marblehead]

That is quite different from Henricks' translation so I thought I should post it:

 

(A:17) Chapter 55

 

1 One who embraces the fullness of virtue

2 May be compared to a newborn babe.

 

3 Vipers and scorpions, poisonous insects and snakes will not bite him,

4 Birds of prey and fierce beasts will not strike him.

5 His bones are soft and his muscles are pliant, yet his grasp is firm.

6 He does not yet know of the mating of female and male. [yet] his penis stiffens.

7 This is because his essence is at its height.

8 He can scream all day without getting hoarse;

9 This is because his inner harmony is at its height.

 

10 That inner harmony we call "the constant."

11 To know that harmony we call "being wise."

12 Trying to increase your life is known as "bad fortune."

13 And when the mind controls the qi -- this we call "using force."

 

14 When things reach their prime they get old.

15 This is called "not the Way."

[lienshan]

Edited August 9, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Well, if you think I am going to further discuss this you are mistaken. Hehehe.

 

Neither yours or Henricks' makes any sense to me. It's just not so in the real world.

 

I am just posting these chapters. I never said I agree with everything as if they were written in stone. Hehehe.