[TTC Study] Chapter 55 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

Well, if you think I am going to further discuss this you are mistaken. Hehehe.

 

Neither yours or Henricks' makes any sense to me. It's just not so in the real world.

Discussion is not a must to me. That it doesn't make any sense to you is enough.

So I've corrected my worse logical mistakes and arrived at:

 

The Guodian chapter 55

 

All mouth Virtue's "big with child" likens "the Son of Heaven":

The stinger of the venomous scorpion isn't poisonous.

The seized bird and frightened animal isn't striked.

The bones weaken, the muscles soften and the grip solidifies.

The not yet knowing the union of female and male is the destination of the penis outraging semen.

The designation of all day long is therefore the destination of the not cackling agreement.

An agreement means to agree to a meaning of common sense.

A birth of an obvious advantage means to breathe a sigh of relief meaning a powerful being.

Big with old is correct called not walking!

 

Da Yi Sheng Shui

 

Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything.

A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything.

 

PS. I read "to breathe a sigh of relief meaning a powerful being" as meaning "yes, it's a boy!"

[Marblehead]

Sorry, my friend. I still don't like it.

 

Actually, I don't even understand why it is in the TTC. I don't see any significant message being presented.

[lienshan]

Actually, I don't even understand why it is in the TTC.

Do you not love mysteries

[Marblehead]

Do you not love mysteries

 

Hehehe. Good consideration, I guess.

[lienshan]

赤子(red son or child)

I steal "a reddish child" to improve the mystery of the first line:

 

All mouth Virtue's "big with child" likens "a reddish child".

 

"a reddish child" = a newborn baby is reddish (the natural aspect of the chapter)

"a reddish child" = an early dawn is reddish (the Son of Heaven aspect of the chapter)

 

A possible third aspect might be this "the Great One gives birth to water" line:

 

Dao is also its character; Early Dawn is its name.

 

And the Shuo Wen definition of the character xuan (mystery/dark) is: black with red

 

I still don't like it.

Laozi used a standard formula in chapter One and many other chapters:

A - B like C - D

It works when there are four lines that read "as usual" make no sense:

 

The all mouth Virtue's " big with child" likens "a reddish child" like

"the stinger of the venomous scorpion isn't poisonous" and

"the frightened substance of a seized bird isn't slapped".

Edited August 10, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

I steal "a reddish child" to improve the mystery of the first line:

 

 

That really didn't help in lessening the confusion. Hehehe. Good try though.

[ChiDragon]

赤子(red son or child): Actually, it means a new born male child.

[lienshan]

赤子(red son or child): Actually, it means a new born male child.

You are right, if you read a newspaper, but the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary says:

 

赤 = southwards direction colour

 

By the way; what do scorpions mean to you chinese people?

I know you eat them fried, but is there another symbolic than the good taste?

 

Edited August 10, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

You are right, if you read a newspaper, but the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary says:

 

1. 赤 = southwards direction colour

 

2. By the way; what do scorpions mean to you chinese people?

I know you eat them fried, but is there another symbolic than the good taste?

 

1. That was not an official definition. It was only used by the feng shui people.

 

2. The scorpions has no specific meaning besides it was used to express someone as evil as a poisonous scorpion. FYI The Chinese eat any living thing with the back toward heaven.....

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

FYI The Chinese eat any living thing with the back toward heaven.....

Or as the joke goes: Anything with legs... except a table ... but I would not put it by the supreme pragmatic in them to find a use for it (ie: wood to burn for cooking the food).

[lienshan]

That really didn't help in lessening the confusion. Hehehe. Good try though.

I solved the mystery with a little help from a Dragon's Chi:

 

The all mouth Virtue's " big with child" likens "a reddish child" like

"the stinger of the venomous scorpion isn't stung" and

"the fierce substance of the seized bird isn't slapped".

 

That'll say:

 

The size of scorpion's stinger is natural and not caused by a sting!

The reddish of the morning sun is natural and not caused by a slap!

[lienshan]

Actually, I don't even understand why it is in the TTC.

I don't see any significant message being presented.

The Guodian chapter 55

 

All mouth Virtue's "big with child" likens "the reddish child" like

"the stinger of the venomous scorpion isn't stung" and

"the fierce substance of the seized bird isn't slapped".

Bones weaken, muscles soften yet a grip solidifies a not yet carnal knowledge.

The destination of the penis outraging semen and the destination of the not cackling agreement

is the designation of all day long.

An agreement means to agree to a meaning of common sense.

A birth of an obvious advantage means to breathe a sigh of relief meaning a powerful being.

Big with old is correct called not walking!

 

Maybe the main subject of this chapter is,

that what really counts isn't "yes, it's a boy!" but "yes, it's alive!"

[Marblehead]

Maybe the main subject of this chapter is,

that what really counts isn't "yes, it's a boy!" but "yes, it's alive!"

 

Or perhaps: (from Henricks)

 

What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

I do see value in the concept of "not forcing things".

[lienshan]

Or perhaps: (from Henricks)

 

What is not the Way will come to an early end.

Henricks "not the way" is grammatical incorrect.

"bu X" defines X as a verb or an adjective.

"bu dao" means thus "not walking".

"not walking" means "not natural".

"zi ran" means "natural" but cannot have a preceeding negative due to grammar.

 

I know, that I'm pedantic, and that Henricks isn't.

[Marblehead]

Henricks "not the way" is grammatical incorrect.

"bu X" defines X as a verb or an adjective.

"bu dao" means thus "not walking".

"not walking" means "not natural".

"zi ran" means "natural" but cannot have a preceeding negative due to grammar.

 

I know, that I'm pedantic, and that Henricks isn't.

 

Whatever you say. I still like it. Hehehe.

[dust]

As usual, I see, I disagree with lienshan's grammatical issues.

 

In the GD, 弗 is used by and large to say "(does) not do (sth)". This is evidenced in the first few lines of this very chapter

 

蜂蠆蠆它弗螫 Wasps, scorpions, and snakes don’t sting them

攫鳥猛獸弗扣 Birds of prey and vicious beasts don’t claw them

 

不 is used for verbs (不言), adjectives (不善), and determiners (不足), and can be translated as "without (doing/being sth)"

 

For example, in other chapters,

不言之教 Teaching without talking

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless (i.e. without limit)

信不足咹又不信 When one is distrustful? He will be mistrusted (又不信 literally "have mistrust")

 

Aside from that, I'm having great trouble with this one.

[dust]

I feel like I'm missing something. Wasps etc don't sting babies? Nonsense... and in the GD, at least, I can make neither heads not tail of the bit that's usually interpreted as being about stiff penises.

 

未智牝戌之合 They do not know the union of man and woman,

易恕精之至也 ...?

 

Really don't like this passage.

Edited November 8, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I feel like I'm missing something. Wasps etc don't sting babies? Nonsense... and in the GD, at least, I can make neither heads not tail of the bit that's usually interpreted as being about stiff penises.

 

未智牝戌之合 They do not know the union of man and woman,

易恕精之至也 ...?

 

Really don't like this passage.

Yeah, it take a really relaxed mind before one can feel comfortable with that.

 

(But it's really true. The baby is not a threat to the wasps therefore they do not sting it. Nature has made the male penis what it is.)

[dust]

Still not convinced that babies are free from animal attack. But I assume it's not meant literally, so..OK. I get the point.

 

But why does the person of high virtue not know the union of man and woman?

This is slightly disillusioning, as I've always considered the people of Tao to be okay with sex (unlike certain philosophies and religions). Sex is a great expression of the union of yin and yang...

[dawei]

Still not convinced that babies are free from animal attack. But I assume it's not meant literally, so..OK. I get the point.

 

But why does the person of high virtue not know the union of man and woman?

This is slightly disillusioning, as I've always considered the people of Tao to be okay with sex (unlike certain philosophies and religions). Sex is a great expression of the union of yin and yang...

 

One of the more interesting translations I have seen on this infers the animals do not harm their own; which I take to mean one does not harm one's self. The self is thus inwardly, completely at union with itself.

 

The child does not know the union of man and women and yet have a natural appearance of stimulation; The hidden union of their inner self does not need to know of such unions to be stimulated.

 

One of high DE is likened to this... they don't need physical stuff to have physical understanding (inner and outer). Their's is an natural, inner way.

 

 

An issue which I find unmentioned about this section is the Red Child 赤子, usually translated as newborn-infant... but one should look at the Central Scriptures of Laozi where this refers to the child-dan of alchemy; the inner embryo which says of itself: "I am the child of the Tao".

[dust]

I will think on all this. Thanks guys.

[flowing hands]

To use Dusty's words:

 

"There is no single, original version of what we call the Tao Te Ching, much less a single "authentic" translation. Anyone claiming to have "the correct" translation is either a liar or a fool. The best course is to read a few, and see where they take you."

 

Dabbling with ancient unauthorized texts that give a nonsensical meaning without proper training from a Daoist Master, is foolish at the very least and presumptive that the original author intended the meaning that you have come up with. To understand the DDJ, one needs a 'core' that will show you a proper understanding. This understanding comes from an apprenticeship with a genuine Daoist master. You can try and translate till your blue in the face even if you are a native Chinese speaker, but your realizations of the text will only be limited. In this chapter there was originally no 'baby'. It is about how a Daoist treads the path as a sage and a person who lives an ordinary life and experiences ordinary things. That in turns brings to them a greater awareness and understanding about the human condition and about the other living things that are alive. Having experienced these things, a sage can then know and understand the principles of self cultivation in its fullness, so eventually becoming 'Dao ren'.

 

I am neither a fool nor a liar, but I will state categorically that what was taught to me in English is the authentic version of Li Erh Xian Shi's words. Now I could try and transpose it back to Chinese, but it was taught to me for the English speaking population.

 

What you are doing here is madness, for you are playing like children and not developing yourselves which was the whole point of Li Erh's teachings. I have given you a proper understanding of LI Erh's words in English, it can lead you to real understanding and realization without deceit from copyist fearful of their heads. In ancient times many a King was fearful of magicians and sorcerers, so copyists would make the King appear to be more powerful than them in any texts that were copied. People were corrupt in politics then, just as they are now. One word against the local lord and your head would go missing! Any text that was written that may undermine the power of the King etc. would have to be altered. Copyist were not Daosits so they knew very little about what they where reading. They would write down in many cases their own interpretation on what they were reading. Need I really say any more?

 

I have also decided that the further verses of Lei Erh that I have put on this site I will eventually make into a book and complete the verses up to the number the Divine master wishes to teach me. I think that this is very special and is really wasted on this site.

Edited November 9, 2014 by flowing hands

[dust]

My apologies if you felt that I was referring to you with that post. You'll note that I said anyone claiming to have the correct translation is a liar or a fool. What I mean by that, and I stand by it wholeheartedly, is that there is no "correct" translation of any document. Translation is as much an art as writing or photography, and subject to the same degree of subjectivity. There is no correct art.

 

Now, if the version you have is truly directly from Li Erh as you say, then it would be an original English version, rather than a translation. And thus quite correct, insofar as it being written of his mind.

 

I don't know, though. Should I take your word for it? And why should I stop this process of translation which is both enjoyable and educational? I'm learning about Dao by scrutinizing the text word for word, which I would have less reason to do in English, and I'm learning both ancient and modern Chinese in the process...

[Taoist Texts]

My apologies if you felt that I was referring to you with that post. You'll note that I said anyone claiming to have the correct translation is a liar

[Taoist Texts]

The hilarity aside, the meaning of this chapter is long forgotten and can not be reconstructed based on the text and its variations alone. The thing is, this chapter represents a counter argument to what the Confucians were positing at that time:

 

徐子以告夷子。夷子曰：「儒者之道，古之人『若保赤子』，

The disciple Xu informed Yi of these remarks. Yi said, 'Even according to the principles of the learned, we find that the ancients acted towards the people "as if they were watching over an infant."

 

王曰：「嗚呼！封，有敘時，乃大明服，惟民其敕懋和。若有疾，惟民其畢棄咎。若保赤子，

Announcement to the Prince...:

The king says, 'Oh! Feng, there must be the orderly regulation (of this matter). When you show a great discrimination, subduing (men's hearts), the people will admonish one another, and strive to be obedient. (Deal firmly yet tenderly with evil), as if it were a disease in your own person, and the people will entirely put away their faults;. (Deal with them) as if you were protecting your own infants

 

大學:

所謂治國必先齊其家者，其家不可教而能教人者，無之。故君子不出家而成教於國：孝者，所以事君也；弟者，所以事長也；慈者，所以使眾也。《康誥》曰：「如保赤子」，

 

Da Xue:

What is meant by "In order rightly to govern the state, it is necessary first to regulate the family," is this: It is not possible for one to teach others, while he cannot teach his own family. Therefore, the ruler, without going beyond his family, completes the lessons for the state. There is filial piety - therewith the sovereign should be served. There is fraternal submission - therewith elders and superiors should be served. There is kindness - therewith the multitude should be treated. In the Announcement to Kang, it is said, "Act as if you were watching over an infant."

 

Etc.

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%B5%A4%E5%AD%90

 

so the argument of the Confucians was that you have deal with the populace as if it was a newborn high-maintenance infant. This was countered by Huang-lao to the tune of ‘ the infant is the most healthy and vibrant creature on the Earth, he is safe on his own’ so likening the populace to an infant means that there is no need to actively manage it or to make it grow up. If the populace ever grows up it will be against Dao and the state will be short-lived.

 

Due to the fragmentary nature of TTC the meaning of the ‘infant’ and its role in the dispute was soon forgotten and the chapter mistaken for some kind of nonsensical self-cultivation advice. Which of course brings us back full circle to the hilarity.