Shaman Flowing Hands

[on the path]

see below

Edited August 13, 2011 by on the path

[on the path]

Twenty years ago I obtained a copy of the Dao De King from Kindred Spirit magazine in the UK. These books were given away free. In the pages of this book a prophecy was given about the way the world was going and a warning that we were heading towards destroy ourselves. The Dao De King presented, was a version that was obtained directly from Lao Tzu By shaman Flowing Hands. Lao Tzu being one of his masters. It seems a rather bizarre thing but subsequent research of religious Daoism revealed very strong pockets of traditional Daoist shamanism in areas like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia etc. Where Lao Tzu is revered as a top Immortal. Such shamans are often seen in the Temples in complete trances of Daoist Gods and Goddess's. Earlier this year I came across his web site by Google-ing his name. On his site My link this message is further given timing and a form. His version of the Dao De King can be downloaded. The question I ask is can we believe what he is saying or not? What can we do about it? Is he and what he has to say making him the most Improtant Daoist in modern times?

 

 

 

[宁]

You have to be shitting me! Creative nonetheless...

[thelerner]

Too late- Falun Dafa beat him to it.

End of World Prophecies

Reincarnated Super masters

Its been done

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a slightly more serious note

I downloaded the version DDT on

OTP's site. Its not out of the

ordinary, but its pretty good.

Edited July 28, 2011 by thelerner

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Personally, I'm all over his translation of the Dao De Jing, meaning, it's renewed my study of it. There are plenty of reasons to caution about the self-destruction of humanity nowadays, even more so than before, so it's no surprise that he takes the potential seriously. It's not like he popped out of a new-age cult either, since he is associated with a legitimate, and rare, Taoist temple.

 

I don't think there is a "most important Taoist" since people contribute to different spectrums, but I'm certainly grateful for his English illucidation of the Lao Zi, which has been receiving much positive acknowledgment by Chinese speakers in the TTC forum

[Marblehead]

The question I ask is can we believe what he is saying or not? What can we do about it? Is he and what he has to say making him the most Improtant Daoist in modern times?

 

 

Well, I have commented regarding the chapters of his you have posted to this time. Yes, from what I have seen, his are an interpretation, not a direct translation.

 

As to the other BS, well, buyer beware.

[doc benway]

Is he and what he has to say making him the most Improtant Daoist in modern times?

 

 

 

There is another thread titled: Oxymoron's that hinder awakening, and here is one:

 

Important Daoist

 

[on the path]

Yes perhaps my use of the word 'important' was misplaced, but in the history of Daoism, only did the yellow turbans sect ever go to war and Daoists by their very nature do not interfere with the way the world is going. His original book contains great compassion and love for all things. The whole book is dedicated to all life and I have lived with this book for twenty years. I feel that he has 'gone to war' on religion and people who perpetrate abuse on others. I noted his rant at politics and religion on his web site. For a traditional shaman to come out and say what he is saying, put his neck on the line, it must be important. I have studied shamanism around the world, most shamans shy away from ever getting involved with world issues. The issue of nuclear war has always been there. But Flowing Hands is saying that we need to deal with it before its too late. I think it is all too easy to be skeptical, he has given us no reasons not to believe what he is saying. I can't see the money passing hands, the millions of followers, or the conjuring tricks to fool people. We don't know who he is (I only know he is a he because of the original book). His version of the DDJ shows great understanding beyond the confusion of most other translations. I think we need to have an open mind.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes perhaps my use of the word 'important' was misplaced, but in the history of Daoism, only did the yellow turbans sect ever go to war and Daoists by their very nature do not interfere with the way the world is going. His original book contains great compassion and love for all things. The whole book is dedicated to all life and I have lived with this book for twenty years. I feel that he has 'gone to war' on religion and people who perpetrate abuse on others. I noted his rant at politics and religion on his web site. For a traditional shaman to come out and say what he is saying, put his neck on the line, it must be important. I have studied shamanism around the world, most shamans shy away from ever getting involved with world issues. The issue of nuclear war has always been there. But Flowing Hands is saying that we need to deal with it before its too late. I think it is all too easy to be skeptical, he has given us no reasons not to believe what he is saying. I can't see the money passing hands, the millions of followers, or the conjuring tricks to fool people. We don't know who he is (I only know he is a he because of the original book). His version of the DDJ shows great understanding beyond the confusion of most other translations. I think we need to have an open mind.

 

You don't have to be a great oracle to realize that there is a very real degree of risk that there could be another major world war that could very well include nuclear weapons, and this risk has been there for quite a few years now. Blaming religions is not going to solve anything in my opinion. In my opinion most religions actually contain good guidance and a good framework at their core to help people live better lives and to get along with people. It is people (from all religions) who distort and ignore religious teachings and use these distorted interpretations for their own personal gain and to try to back up their own prejudices and hatreds. In my opinion it is clearly people in general that are to blame, not religions. Even in countries where religion was down-played and disparaged such as the former communist Russia and the current communist China (although they have softened their hard-line stance against religion in China in recent years they still keep a fairly tight control over it) all sorts of atrocities and major abuses of power and wars or threats of war were/are still occurring. Based on all this, I would actually say that it shows a quite short-sighted and narrow view to blame religions as a major cause of world problems when in reality the exact same types of behavior still occur in this world with or without religion in the picture. It is clearly just plain old 'human nature' (greed, longing for power and control, prejudice, racial hatred, fanaticism, etc.) that is the root cause of world problems.

 

If 'flowing hands' was initiated in a Taoist temple then that would make him a Taoist of some sort (regardless of whether he prefers to refer to himself as a shaman or not). There are some 'Taoist' temples that do incorporate temporary 'spirit possession' of various forms and such things in their practices, which may well have roots in shamanism or folk religions, but I know some other Taoists frown on such practices and view them as unorthodox or 'left-hand' paths. Regarding whether one should believe 'Flowing Hands' or not, that is a person's personal choice. Has 'Flowing Hands' really said anything that has not been said many times before? Has he provided anything to make you think his view has any more of a substantial basis than any other prediction or vision, etc. that is put out there? In other words, what has Flowing Hands said or done that would lend more credence to his view than another view that is out there?

 

If one really doesn't know much about who this person really is and one can't interact with them to try to get a better idea of what they are really about, then it is very hard to make any assessment one way or the other about anything they claim. Regarding the Dao De Jing, there are many interpretations out there and anyone here could come up with a new translation of this text by just reading various translations and then adding their own personal slant to a new translation. Not saying this is necessarily the case, but without knowing anything about the person who made the translation or being able to interact with them there is not much way to assess things. It is just another set of claims and views to add to the pile that are already out there. One really doesn't have much at all to go on to either believe or not believe, it seems to me.

Best wishes...

Edited August 13, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[on the path]

You've raised some good points there. People are to blame, but how does one propose that such a person like Flowing Hands goes about telling people what is to come without falling into being like the Falun dafa people, Sai Baba, the christian sects who hike property and money etc and all the others, and sticking to the principle of not seeking fame or riches in doing this work? This is what has struck me, he appears not to have done this. Whats in it for him? He comes from a traditional source, no one man band business, his sect can be found in Hong kong, Singapore and Malaysia, a long line in traditional Daoist Shamanism, no plastic here! (ref:plastic shamanism) (Mao Shun I do believe). I can't see any reasons to doubt his integrity?

 

I'll tell you what we should do about it, how about we all join the international campaign for nuclear disarmament and hope the hell he's wrong!! For where I'm standing, having done extensive research over the years, I don't think we should be aligning this man with others like Falun dafa, nor calling it BS, I think we should be aligning him to people like the Hopi Indian Holyman of old, who went on vision quests etc. to help their people. I think we should take the gift that he has offered up to us for free with an open mind (think like traditional Chinese, not like western 'gwai lo's' with 'mo yung ching'). Yes the original book came from the uk and I'm sure whoever designed his web site must know more about the whole thing? It is stated on the front cover of the original book of Lao Tzu's true words, these were then passed onto someone else who then passed them on to be printed. Flowing Hands clearly states that he doesn't want to be found. So I suppose we can't ever communicate with him? A chain from the origin which can't be traced!! Which brings us back to your apt and clearly stated points!

[The Way Is Virtue]

Whats in it for him? He comes from a traditional source, no one man band business, his sect can be found in Hong kong, Singapore and Malaysia, a long line in traditional Daoist Shamanism, no plastic here! (ref:plastic shamanism) (Mao Shun I do believe). I can't see any reasons to doubt his integrity?

 

Hi otp. Well he may have had a vision and he may also have met an 'old man' who gave him a copy of the dao de jing, or he may also have made this up and may just want to pass on his own views and ideas and try to give these views and ideas more weight by claiming such things. Without being able to at least converse with this person there is just no way of assessing it further. I don't know that the sect he mentions is the Mao Shan taoist sect, but there is more than one tradition that came from Mao Shan from what I understand, and there are certainly sects that have branched off from other major sects and gone their own way. It could also be some other sect or group entirely. The person who registered the website also has a mailing address registered, if you really wanted to try to get in touch with this person. ;-) Not everything is what it seems, but sometimes it may be. It is probably good not to jump to conclusions either way with the limited info that is there is all that I was suggesting.

 

If someone wants to lend support to nuclear disarmament this would be their own call, and as I mentioned previously, you don't need a prediction or vision to be able to realize that there is a very real danger of nuclear war in this world. There are just too many crazies and too many self-righteous and fanatical and knee jerk reaction type people out there for there not to be such a risk.

 

Best wishes...

Edited August 3, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[on the path]

Hi otp. Well he may have had a vision and he may also have met an 'old man' who gave him a copy of the dao de jing, or he may also have made this up and may just want to pass on his own views and ideas and try to give these views and ideas more weight by claiming such things. Without being able to at least converse with this person there is just no way of assessing it further. I don't know that the sect he mentions is the Mao Shan taoist sect, but there is more than one tradition that came from Mao Shan from what I understand, and there are certainly sects that have branched off from other major sects and gone their own way. It could also be some other sect or group entirely. The person who registered the website also has a mailing address registered, if you really wanted to try to get in touch with this person. ;-) Not everything is what it seems, but sometimes it may be. It is probably good not to jump to conclusions either way with the limited info that is there is all that I was suggesting.

 

If someone wants to lend support to nuclear disarmament this would be their own call, and as I mentioned previously, you don't need a prediction or vision to be able to realize that there is a very real danger of nuclear war in this world. There are just too many crazies and too many self-righteous and fanatical and knee jerk reaction type people out there for there not to be such a risk.

 

Best wishes...

 

 

Hi the way is virtue,

 

I looked back at the web site of Flowing Hands and he has a rant at politics and religion. Politics I do believe is the organisation of people and religion the organised spiritual guidance and belief of people. He doesn't say the cause of the war will be politics which could be equally possible. He does say that religion will be the cause. He is quite specific. I don't think many people in the modern age understand shamanism. Most people's experience is of paying large sums of money to someone who either drugs them or tries to delude them. There is an organisation that devotes its whole energy to de-bunking so called shamans. They go on a register of 'plastic shamans'. The organisation exist to promote genuine shamanism. I go back to my original point which you did not answer. Whats in it for Flowing Hands?

[The Way Is Virtue]

I go back to my original point which you did not answer. Whats in it for Flowing Hands?

Hi otp. Actually I did comment on that. What I said was I think that since there is no way to interact with this person it is very hard to know where they are really coming from and what their real motives are. I also said that this person may just want to promote their own views and beliefs and it certainly seems possible to me anyway that they could have made up some things to try to lend more weight to their views. A person does not have to be seeking money or fame to want to spread and promote their own views and beliefs to others. Various religious and political groups do that sort of thing all the time with much of the work often being done by volunteers who do not make any money and such from their efforts. I am not saying that I think that this is necessarily the case here, just that I think there is no way of determining one way or the other given the circumstances.

Best wishes...

[vsaluki]

The question I ask is can we believe what he is saying or not?

 

 

Sounds like you only have to wait 10 years to find out for yourself. He predicts the demise of the world if we don't change in the way that he believes appropriate. I can tell you that the world is not going to change in the way that he wishes, so in 10 years you will have your answer. My guess is that he will turn out to be a fraud because almost nothing will have changed in 10 years.

[on the path]

Hi otp. Actually I did comment on that. What I said was I think that since there is no way to interact with this person it is very hard to know where they are really coming from and what their real motives are. I also said that this person may just want to promote their own views and beliefs and it certainly seems possible to me anyway that they could have made up some things to try to lend more weight to their views. A person does not have to be seeking money or fame to want to spread and promote their own views and beliefs to others. Various religious and political groups do that sort of thing all the time with much of the work often being done by volunteers who do not make any money and such from their efforts. I am not saying that I think that this is necessarily the case here, just that I think there is no way of determining one way or the other given the circumstances.

Best wishes...

 

Hi TWIV,

 

I think you are right, but the nagging thought that haunts me is my many times in the far east with many experiences of traditional Daoist shamans at work in temples or at peoples homes. I think it is a great shame that even people on this forum do not have any experience of genuine shamanism, let alone Daoist Shamanism and as you yourself have said, look at it as 'left handed practice' even though it was being practiced thousands of years before Daoist religion was organised!! We will have to wait and see what develops.

[on the path]

Sounds like you only have to wait 10 years to find out for yourself. He predicts the demise of the world if we don't change in the way that he believes appropriate. I can tell you that the world is not going to change in the way that he wishes, so in 10 years you will have your answer. My guess is that he will turn out to be a fraud because almost nothing will have changed in 10 years.

 

Hi

 

many things change in very little time. This time ten years ago we never thought that a religious group would be able to blow up the twin towers!! I don't think we should be so naive.

[on the path]

I also said that this person may just want to promote their own views and beliefs and it certainly seems possible to me anyway that they could have made up some things to try to lend more weight to their views. A person does not have to be seeking money or fame to want to spread and promote their own views and beliefs to others. Various religious and political groups do that sort of thing all the time with much of the work often being done by volunteers who do not make any money and such from their efforts. I am not saying that I think that this is necessarily the case here, just that I think there is no way of determining one way or the other given the circumstances.

Best wishes...

 

 

Hi TWIV,

 

I looked back again at what you said, and no I don't agree. Twenty years ago he made available his version of the DDJ which has found good favor with many people on this forum since I have introduced it. He is not promoting his views, but that of Lao Tzu. The vision that he was given was not his, but of his Masters. He is telling us, as any shaman would, what the spirit has told him. I would imagine that if Flowing Hands had an ego centered reason for promoting his own views, it would have been the Dao according to Flowing Hands, not according to Lao Tzu. My own reasons for promoting positively this site is that the DDj is really great and I myself have been the student of another Holyman, Wu Shi tong. Who's Master was Huang Lo Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). I have great experience of Daoist shamanism. So I believe that this site is a genuine message from the spirit world to sort out the way we are living before its too late. As you have said it is obvious but I feel we must not pass it off as just that.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I looked back again at what you said, and no I don't agree. Twenty years ago he made available his version of the DDJ which has found good favor with many people on this forum since I have introduced it. He is not promoting his views, but that of Lao Tzu. The vision that he was given was not his, but of his Masters. He is telling us, as any shaman would, what the spirit has told him. I would imagine that if Flowing Hands had an ego centered reason for promoting his own views, it would have been the Dao according to Flowing Hands, not according to Lao Tzu. My own reasons for promoting positively this site is that the DDj is really great and I myself have been the student of another Holyman, Wu Shi tong. Who's Master was Huang Lo Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). I have great experience of Daoist shamanism. So I believe that this site is a genuine message from the spirit world to sort out the way we are living before its too late. As you have said it is obvious but I feel we must not pass it off as just that.

Hi otp. That's is quite OK. I wasn't trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. Just giving my own personal point of view on the matter, since you asked.

Edited August 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[on the path]

Hi TWIV,

 

Perhaps you should write a letter yourself to whoever this person is, they may be able to pass it on to Flowing Hands? I don't need to question this site because of my own training and my own experiences, but you obviously need some more info to get a handle on it perhaps!??

[The Way Is Virtue]

Perhaps you should write a letter yourself to whoever this person is, they may be able to pass it on to Flowing Hands? I don't need to question this site because of my own training and my own experiences, but you obviously need some more info to get a handle on it perhaps!??

 

OK, now you've completely lost me. As I said, I was just giving my perspective since you asked what people think.

Best wishes...

Edited August 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

the mystery of the mutual interaction of yin and yang

clearly progresses beyond form

Edited August 13, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[goldisheavy]

Yes perhaps my use of the word 'important' was misplaced, but in the history of Daoism, only did the yellow turbans sect ever go to war and Daoists by their very nature do not interfere with the way the world is going. His original book contains great compassion and love for all things. The whole book is dedicated to all life and I have lived with this book for twenty years. I feel that he has 'gone to war' on religion and people who perpetrate abuse on others. I noted his rant at politics and religion on his web site. For a traditional shaman to come out and say what he is saying, put his neck on the line, it must be important. I have studied shamanism around the world, most shamans shy away from ever getting involved with world issues. The issue of nuclear war has always been there. But Flowing Hands is saying that we need to deal with it before its too late. I think it is all too easy to be skeptical, he has given us no reasons not to believe what he is saying. I can't see the money passing hands, the millions of followers, or the conjuring tricks to fool people. We don't know who he is (I only know he is a he because of the original book). His version of the DDJ shows great understanding beyond the confusion of most other translations. I think we need to have an open mind.

 

I have nothing against Flowing Hands, but the link you posted has practically no information.

 

The warning is fine, but these warnings are common. Many people warned of the same dangers in the past. How is Flowing Hands' warning different other than it reaches dramatically fewer people than similar warnings in the recent the past?

 

He's calling on people to set aside religion. Well, guess what? These kinds of calls are common in the world. Obviously there are reasons preventing people from setting aside their backwards religions. Assuming Flowing Hands still wants to get involved, as a Daoist this guy should comprehend these reasons and address them. And when doing that, he should be addressing the terrorists instead of preaching to the choir.

[on the path]

I have nothing against Flowing Hands, but the link you posted has practically no information.

 

The warning is fine, but these warnings are common. Many people warned of the same dangers in the past. How is Flowing Hands' warning different other than it reaches dramatically fewer people than similar warnings in the recent the past?

 

He's calling on people to set aside religion. Well, guess what? These kinds of calls are common in the world. Obviously there are reasons preventing people from setting aside their backwards religions. Assuming Flowing Hands still wants to get involved, as a Daoist this guy should comprehend these reasons and address them. And when doing that, he should be addressing the terrorists instead of preaching to the choir.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

What I can do is guess in answer to this, based on my very long years of being the student of another Daoist Holyman, Yoon Kin Tong and by the way he would think and the teachings he left me with.

The basis of Daoism is not to interfere, not to seek fame and fortune etc. all these things are written as basics in the DDJ. I think it must be a hard position to be in, knowing that you believe the world to befall a great catastrophe and sticking to the principles that you have adhered to. In such cultures as the native American Indians, shamans sought visions from their spirit guides when their people were starving or in danger, they could communicate these things to their people and they would be understood. Most of the people on this forum having never seen or met a traditional Daoist Holyman, equally don't really know much about the subject either I would guess. Some would say such practices were heterodox, even though shamanism was being practiced in China thousands of years before Lao Tzu wrote his DDJ. So I guess to address the very people who would eventually perpetrate this act would be difficult in many ways, seeing that most people on this site don't believe what he is saying, and they are Daoists!! How could you convince another person with another point of view completely, to give up what they believe and follow another path???

 

Some good general reading: Black Elk speaks, Lakota native American Shaman

 

The teachings of Taoist Master Chuang by Michael Saso

 

Chung Tzu ;inner chapters has some good stories of Daoist Holymen

 

There are many more!!!!

Edited August 14, 2011 by on the path

[on the path]

the mystery of the mutual interaction of yin and yang

clearly progresses beyond form

 

 

 

HI TWIV,

 

The great thing about this forum and long may it remain, is for the most part one can remain anonymous, or one can give all your personal details away. I am a well respected traditional Kung Fu Master with a long lineage back to the founder of Wang Mu Xian Shi in Northern China. Her art she invented she called 'Gong Jian Quan' (Bow and Arrow Fist). This comprised of two long forms and chart her development in martial arts. The third form she called 'Du Jian Quan' (poison arrow fist), the last and most devastating form. Wang Mu is celebrated as an Immortal, a bit like the founder of Tai Chi Chuan is. I think what is great about this is that I can come onto this forum discuss many aspects of religion, philosophy and martial arts and no one knows who I am, my views stand by what I write not by my title and they are either agreed with or in most cases not at all. I find that refreshing and a learning process in itself. I personally am not interested in who anyone else is, but I'm interested in what they have to say and how they say it. In that way none of us can get offended or say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi otp. It all sounds fine to me, and I did change the course of my comments once I had realized a few things. I stand by my opinion that a person may possibly make up some things or otherwise misrepresent themself in some ways in order to promote their personal views and ideas. One certainly does not have to be seeking money or fame to do so. It is not such an uncommon occurrence, wouldn't you say?

 

By the way, for someone to say they don't know about something, does not mean they necessarily believe something is not true. It just means they are reserving drawing a conclusion because they don't have sufficent basis to draw a definite conclusion either way. To complain that people don't believe even though they are Daoists or whatever doesn't make much sense to me. There have been and are so many predictions from many different sources of how or when the world is going to end, or how the world will be greatly destroyed and, to date, none of them have come true. I don't think it is too unreasonable for people to reserve blindly believing one more such prediction. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there is another major world war that involves nuclear weapons at some point in the future. I hope such a thing does not ever happen, but I don't know if there is much a person can do about trying to prevent such things except working on our own personal cultivation and trying to help others in this world and promote good will amongst different peoples as we can. Others may chant mantras or pray for better things to come if they are so disposed. At any rate, I have given my point of view so I will leave you with it.

Best wishes to you...

Edited August 15, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue