[TTC Study] Chapter 56 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

"That which" is in my way of reading the chapter: the world.

It's mine too. I was first struck by the incongruity of "those who know don't speak, those ..." Now, why should we believe this 'speaker'?

I've had a change of mind, stan herman, after having finished my reading of the whole chapter below.

"That which" is "to know when enough is enough" and I think, that the speaker explains it in a greater way

than the way I translate, what I've read, into not-native english:

 

The Guodian chapter 56

 

That which make knowledge isn't speech.

That which make speech isn't knowledge.

Blocking its spread is to separate its opening.

Harmonizing its extent is to share its dust.

Raising its point is to untie its disorder.

These are called complementary substitutes and therefore not obtainable.

But shrugging off not obtainable and neglecting not obtainable,

then the snatching of not grabbable and then the slandering of not grabbable,

hence the strangulation of the not grabbable and worthless.

Therefore make the world dearest.

 

xuan means according to the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary dark:

 

"that which is black and have red color"

 

I've chosen "complementary" in order to express the duality of "dark" in the context.

Edited August 2, 2011 by lienshan

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

I wanted to start by sharing that this passage came up at a time when I was asking my self the question, "how can I prove that my experiences are real, when the only way (in my opinion) to prove that is if someone else has experienced it?" This passage, for me is the answer...

 

I quote Flowing Hands translation of the chapter again, because I think he touches on the actual meaning of the chapter, and rather than translate it word for word, his intent is to share the meaning in a way that can be understood in English...

 

"Those who are enlightened, sit in silence.

Those who think they know something, are forever talking.

In silence and peace one can become enlightened.

No one can teach someone else how to become enlightened,

for it stems from within the heart.

Be at one with Heaven and Earth and then you can become enlightened.

He who has become enlightened, is unconcerned with friends, enemies,

honour or disgrace, with wealth and titles.

For he has become at one with the Dao.

This is the highest state of man."

 

But I think that, if one looks at Wu, Feng, and Henrick's translation it's clear how Flowing Hands came to this conclusion.

 

He who knows doesn't speak, rather he sets about making his world a peaceful place. He files down those edges that might harm others, frees himself from the entanglements of the world so that he can view it with clarity, softens the light, so what's really apparent can be seen, and in doing this places himself in union with the world.

 

Apech hit upon the reason for this as well, much better than I did. The sage isn't quiet, necessarily because people wont believe or because they will, but rather because he understands the nature of man, the need to be right, and that even if you believe you are right, that doesn't mean someone else will.

 

This is a recurring theme in the Tao Teh Ching and one of the lessons we can take from this chapter, that even if we "know" we are right, that doesn't mean we are required to share that we are. In most instances the greatest impact that we have on people, doesn't come from our words, but from our actions.

 

If we take a look at the greatest figures of history, what do we remember most, not what they said, per se, but what they did. There are those people who talk endlessly and needlessly, and then there are those people who sit in silence, understanding that peace, in the end, is the most important thing we can share.

 

The irony is that this is complete common sense and in fact we're taught this as children, remember when we were told, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all?" Well that's what this is saying as well, in another way. If we know that what we have to say will only cause people to become confused or angry, then why are we saying it in the first place, if not simply to stroke our ego and prove how we are correct and they are wrong? Well that doesn't seem so nice to me.

 

Anyways, peace and love and all that jive. Have a good one.

 

Aaron

Edited August 2, 2011 by Twinner

[ChiDragon]

Erm did we ever consider that perhaps the speaker doesn't speak because she actually understands Chapter 1 properly ???

 

Just a thought ... carry on

 

Does anyone ever understood Chapter 1 properly....???

 

PS....

We have a friend here treating Chapter ONE as a lifetime project trying to understand it. Every time he approaches it; he stepped back more remotely.

Edited August 2, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

A translator who uses the word "enlightened" to translate the Tao Te Ching must be a pseudo-Taoist. Boy, is s/he confused.

 

Oh, I know. This translator was a crossbreed of a Buddhist and a Taoist....

 

The irony is that this is complete common sense and in fact we're taught this as children, remember when we were told, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all?" Well that's what this is saying as well, in another way. If we know that what we have to say will only cause people to become confused or angry, then why are we saying it in the first place, if not simply to stroke our ego and prove how we are correct and they are wrong? Well that doesn't seem so nice to me.

 

Well said. Aaron...

Edited August 2, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

You gave your explanation as to the speaker who is silent because he might waste his time on others. Is that Laozi's position? He is tired of others who won't listen so he is silent to spite them? He is silent because chinese culture has for thousands of years preferred action over words.

 

I'll be silent. I just remembered.

 

1. One who is wise will not speak.

2. One who will speak is not wise.

[Apech]

A translator who uses the word "enlightened" to translate the Tao Te Ching must be a pseudo-Taoist. Boy, is s/he confused.

 

Oh, I know. This translator was a crossbreed of a Buddhist and a Taoist....

 

Oh I think that's a bit unfair (possibly true though ironically). Enlightened is a proper English word ... as per 'The Enlightenment' which has nothing to do with Buddhism. It can just mean someone who has understood ... i.e. the Sage who embodies the Tao ... it doesn't have to mean Buddha.

 

We are all confused I would suggest ... its just some of us are less confused than others ...

[lienshan]

I quote Flowing Hands translation of the chapter again

 

"For he has become at one with the Dao."

A translator who uses the word "enlightened" to translate the Tao Te Ching must be a pseudo-Taoist.

Let me enlighten you, Mr. arbiter of taste

 

Flowing Hands is surely a great shaman and a great writer. Please respect

 

But Flowing Hands "the Dao" is precisely what Laozi argues against chapter after chapter.

His at first sight little innocent title "the" manifests Dao as existing.

 

ChiDragon, chase the ball not the man

[ChiDragon]

Oh I think that's a bit unfair (possibly true though ironically). Enlightened is a proper English word ... as per 'The Enlightenment' which has nothing to do with Buddhism. It can just mean someone who has understood ... i.e. the Sage who embodies the Tao ... it doesn't have to mean Buddha.

 

We are all confused I would suggest ... its just some of us are less confused than others ...

Yes, I grant you that "Enlightened" is a proper English word but that is not my argument. The argument was that a Taoist is not after "ENLIGHTENMENT" as a Buddhist would. Is there another word that we can use here to replace this word to eliminate the Buddhist flavor....???

 

PS....

This is only my hard-nose opinion.

[Marblehead]

I rather like "awareness".

 

But let's not take this chapter too seriously.

 

We still need discuss these chapters. Hehehe. (Whether we think we know or we know we don't know.)

[dawei]

Alquiros titled this chapter:

 

Silent Enlightenment

 

http://www.tao-te-king.org/056.htm

[Marblehead]

Alquiros titled this chapter:

 

Silent Enlightenment

 

http://www.tao-te-king.org/056.htm

 

Well, sure. Sometimes this is done during meditation.

 

I don't really have a problem with the word "enlightenment", I just dont know what it means. (Sure, I have seen many definitions but none of them, for me, have reached to the core.)

[dawei]

Well, sure. Sometimes this is done during meditation.

 

I don't really have a problem with the word "enlightenment", I just dont know what it means. (Sure, I have seen many definitions but none of them, for me, have reached to the core.)

I like Flowing Hand's own definition:

Be at one with Heaven and Earth...

...

For he has become at one with the Dao.

[Apech]

[Marblehead]

There you are ... not a Buddha in sight.

 

Hehehe.

 

Yes, to be at one with Heaven, Earth and our fellow beings.

 

So what? To live in harmony with all else as much as possible.

[stan herman]

The Tao is many thing to many people.

To some it is a pleasant justification for what they like to do

To some it is an intellectual exercise in Chinese translation

To some it is a way to meet gentle new friends

To some it is a finger pointing in a new direction

 

To some it is a step to take

To some it is a resting place

[Marblehead]

The Tao is many thing to many people.

To some it is a pleasant justification for what they like to do

To some it is an intellectual exercise in Chinese translation

To some it is a way to meet gentle new friends

To some it is a finger pointing in a new direction

To some it is a step to take

To some it is a resting place

 

Okay. I think I will opt for a number of those many things. Maybe all, I don't know.

[lienshan]

The Tao is many thing to many people.

To some it is an intellectual exercise in Chinese translation

I opt in to that one

 

I prefer to read Laozi's guide as he wrote it himself in his own language.

And I write/translate what I've read for two reasons:

To get critical feedback from those who too read/translate, so I can improve my reading/translating.

To serve those who are not talented with the skill of reading/translating pre-Qin classical chinese,

and get their feedback to the logic of my writings, because not logic = not read/translated correct!

 

Pre-Qin classical chinese is contrary to the modern a language of negative indification,

and the characters are grammatically identified as names (nouns) or titles (not nouns),

so a reader has to read what a character isn't in order to identify what it is:

 

That it isn't "The Tao" but "Tao _" because "Tao" is the title to a not nameable noun!

Edited August 3, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

I opt in to that one

 

I prefer to read Laozi's guide as he wrote it himself in his own language.

And I write/translate what I've read for two reasons:

To get critical feedback from those who too read/translate, so I can improve my reading/translating.

To serve those who are not talented with the skill of reading/translating pre-Qin classical chinese,

and get their feedback to the logic of my writings, because not logic = not read/translated correct!

 

Pre-Qin classical chinese is contrary to the modern a language of negative indification,

and the characters are grammatically identified as names (nouns) or titles (not nouns),

so a reader has to read what a character isn't in order to identify what it is:

 

That it isn't "The Tao" but "Tao _" because "Tao" is the title to a not nameable noun!

The problem may be that your not a shamanistic alchemist philosopher. Your a dictionary seeking grammarian translator. You really get there there from here. JMO.

 

Grammar, like musical notes, never existed in that time. It's anachronistic to retrofit it all from a book of grammar. Meditate on it a few years and then translate it's meaning would be my prescription.

[lienshan]

Your a dictionary seeking grammarian translator.

BULL's EYE

 

The internet is to me a world of language and can therefore not be walked.

 

Grammar, like musical notes, never existed in that time.

It's anachronistic to retrofit it all from a book of grammar.

I'm able to read the opening line of Tao Te Ching chapter One when using grammar

 

(I'll make a post in the chapter One thread later today and explain the grammar rules)

[dust]

He (who knows it) will keep his mouth shut and close the portals (of his nostrils). He will blunt his sharp points...

This is why I don't pay attention to Legge translations. Where under heaven did he get "nostrils" from?

 

My (thus far very unpolished) GD:

 

智之者弗言 One who knows does not talk,

言之者弗智 One who talks does not know;

閉亓兌賽亓門 Closing doors, blunting edges,

和亓光同亓謹 Mollifying light, aligning ambitions,

畜亓𣂼解亓紛 Equalizing shares, untangling knots,

是胃玄同 Is called unifying the mystery;

古不可㝵而新 Not obtaining closeness,

亦不可㝵而疋 One cannot obtain distance,

不可㝵而利 Not obtaining profit,

亦不可㝵而害 One cannot obtain harm,

不可㝵而貴 Not obtaining riches,

亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all

[Marblehead]

You used some funny words in that. But still, true to the concept. That's important.

 

 

And let's not be too hard on Legge. He was one of the first to attempt an honest translation of the TTC into English. (Hehehe. I don't care too much for his translations either.)

[Taoist Texts]

this is why I don't pay attention to Legge translations. Where under heaven did he get "nostrils" from?

 

nostrils are portals.

[Taoist Texts]

亦不可㝵而疋 One cannot obtain distance,

不可㝵而利 Not obtaining profit,

亦不可㝵而害 One cannot obtain harm,

不可㝵而貴 Not obtaining riches,

亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all

seriously what is this? who on earth would need to 'obtain poverty' or distance, or harm? come on.

[dust]

Well... that's how it's written....

 

㝵 - 得 - obtain

 

 

Like I said, it's unpolished, and by that I meant that the wording could use some work, but the meaning is... correct. I say that with more certainty than usual.

 

What's more, it's the only version I'm aware of that actually makes some kind of sense, right to the last line.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Well... that's how it's written....

 

 

 

Prove me wrong.

 

I understand what you are saying. Those are the words in chinese you replace them with words in english and thats that. Which is cool.

 

Now, with all due respect and ceremony could you paraphrase what it says in operative language? might be interesting;)