[TTC Study] Chapter 56 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aetherous]

Okay, here are my translation notes. It's natural if people will disagree with my thought process. It's kind of cool to look at the behind the scenes of how people translate, and come to our own conclusions...

 

知 zhī = know, recognize, reveal, have mastery over...shuowen is a person speaking who hits the mark or is correct

者 zhě = when suffixed to a single verb, it makes a noun indicating a practitioner of the action...KNOWER

不 bù = (pre-verbal negative..."not")...shuowen is picture of a flying bird

言 yán = speak...shuowen is flute with a mouth blowing into it

 

literal = "knower not speak"

Translation: One who could reveal the truth to you - they do not reveal it through talking

 

(it’s interesting that the character for “know” implies someone who talks about a subject with accuracy, but in this chapter it says that they don’t talk. So how can we say that they know, without them demonstrating their knowledge? On the other hand, the character for speak implies someone simply making sounds. I include this subtlety of meaning in my translation…)

 

………

 

言 yán = speak...shuowen is flute with a mouth blowing into it

者 zhě = when suffixed to a single verb, it makes a noun indicating a practitioner of the action...SPEAKER

不 bù = (pre-verbal negative..."not")...shuowen is picture of a flying bird

知 zhī = know, recognize, reveal, have mastery over...shuowen is a person speaking who hits the mark or is correct

 

literal = "speaker not know"

 

Translation: The words of someone who claims to be revealing the truth to you are inaccurate - such a person doesn’t truly know it.

 

(Why add in “the truth” in these lines? It refers to the accuracy of speech that the knower has. “The truth” could be referring to any subject we could discuss, so it isn’t problematic to add in order to increase the meaning in English…in Chinese, it’s implied.)

 

………

 

塞 sāi = obstruct, block, plug, close up, restrain, check, forbid, fill, stuff, pervade, saturate with, satiate, satisfy, supply, compensate, recompense....shuowen: an empty place filled with materials introduced by hands.

其 qí = grammatical particle…anaphoric adjective, meaning that it’s referring back to someone who was being spoken of previously; “their”.

兑 duì = glad(ness), joy(ous), delight. one of the 8 trigrams (lake), and also name of 58th hexagram (joy). open a passage, get through, opening, hole, cave...shuowen: perhaps words coming out of the mouth of a person who is excessively joyful.

 

literal: plug/fill their joy/speech

 

Translation: As for those who would know, they replenish themselves by maintaining quietude

 

(I added “as for those who would know” because it makes sense in English, and the Chinese meaning of “their” in these phrases is obviously not referring to the person who speaks but doesn’t know. I said “replenish themselves by maintaining” because sai indicates making an effort to fill an empty place in order to plug it up. “By maintaining” implies the effort. “Replenish” implies the filling. It’s in the sense of a person talking or being excessively joyful draining themselves of qi, their open mouth being the empty place, whereas a person who is calm and not babbling incessantly is not draining themselves. Instead of this passage basically meaning that a person shuts off their joy and shuts their mouth to stop talking, it could also imply that the person pervades with delight…that what they’re filling the space with is a kind of bliss. I think the English word quietude can imply all of these things simultaneously. That they are literally shutting their mouth, that they aren’t excessively joyful, and that they have an inner peace.)

 

………

 

閉 bì = to bar a gate, lock, doorbar, barricade, obstruct, block off, close off, shut away, hide, stop, put an end to...shuowen: to shut a door by locking it.

其 qí = their

門 mén = gateway, portal, outer door, entrance, access, key solution to a problem, means, way to do something, orifice or sense organ...shuowen: picture of double doors.

 

literal: lock their doors

 

Translation: lock the doors of their spirit (the senses, thoughts, emotions) and keep it within

 

(Why do I add “of their spirit (the senses, thoughts, emotions) and keep it within”? In Kroll’s Classical dictionary, one of the meanings of men is orifices or sense organs (plural because the door is plural). This line of the chapter could be saying basically, stop using your senses…stop looking, stop hearing, etc…if that was the only definition of men, which it isn’t. Obviously, the purpose of not using your senses is to keep one’s spirit from being dissipated…this ties in with the replenishing concept of the previous line…in this line, the way they don’t drain themselves is by locking the sense doors. To take this further, it’s not merely the senses that the spirit or one’s attention moves by…it’s also thoughts and emotions. That’s an extrapolation by me, to interpret men as being any means by which the spirit could go out, and not simply the senses. It translates as “portal”…well, portal for what? This whole discussion ties into the alchemical concept of mercury, which is spirit (a concept which didn’t exist at the time of the writing of the Dao De Jing). The alchemical process requires it to be fixed in order to use it, or in other words, to not let it evaporate out. This line is about centering and not dissipating the spirit, and it instructs how, without using that precise terminology.)

 

………

 

挫 cuò = crush, press down, raze, crush the spirit of, break up, destroy, check, arrest, frustrate, weaken, cripple, put under strain, abase, humble, bring low, take down, humiliate...shuowen: hand radical with people sitting on ground phonetic.

其 qí = their

銳 ruì = sharp (no entry in classical dictionary)...shuowen: comprised of the characters for metal and joy/speech.

 

literal: weaken their sharpness

 

Translation: sit still and allow their mind to rest without focusing on anything in particular

 

(Sharpness can refer to being quick witted or clever, because it includes the character for speech combined with metal…a sharp tongue. So this passage says to basically not be quick witted in terms of your speech…what does that imply? Don’t be quick witted implies that you dull your wits…so it’s actually referring to something that happens with the mind, and is not merely saying to keep your speech simple. The line being about the mind rather than simply about conduct in speech is a deeper meaning. Why do I add “sit still”? Because the character of cuo contains the phonetic of people sitting on the ground. At times the phonetics add meaning to the character, and I think this is one of those times. The hand radical can imply making an effort, in this case, by sitting…and in doing this, you’re weakening your cleverness. Furthermore, what is the opposite of a clever or cunning state of mind? To be unfocused rather than focused. Focus is a sharpness, whereas un-focus is like a dullness. Cunning is a lack of rest, whereas a lack of cunning means the mind is at rest. This interpretation is informed by Buddhist meditation instruction and experience, but is accurate in terms of the characters used.)

 

………

 

解 jiě = untie, unknot, loosen, release, take off, remove clothing, disjoint, dismember, dissect, analyze, take apart, remove, eliminate, resolve or find a solution, work out a problem, deliver from, release, liberate, free oneself from, dissipate, dissolve, disperse, open out, unfurl, unfold, reveal, explain, expound, exposition, understand, comprehend, know about...shuowen: to cleave with a knife the horn of an ox.

其 qí = their

分 fēn = divide, separate, split, divert, differentiate, distinguish, discriminate, demarcate, discernable, make out distinctly, apportion, parcel out, mete out, equinoxes, measure word for 1/10th...shuowen: a knife cutting something into two pieces.

 

literal: remove their discrimination

 

Translation: free themselves completely from the mind's tendency to discriminate between anything

 

(Like the last line, this line also includes things that have to do with sharpness…knives in both jie and fen characters, which is interesting. It again has to do with the sharpness of the mind. How the characters are interpreted isn’t so challenging here…multiple English translations could come up with the same basic meaning of the line. In the Buddhist context, it would even go as far as discriminating between self and other…duality. I think this is the same meaning here. Fen implies dividing of any sort. With a “knife”, like “cutting off the horn of an ox”, you slice off your ability to cut up the world into dualistic concepts, and liberate yourself from it. Or we could just say, “don’t discriminate between things”.)

 

………

 

和 hé = harmonious, in harmony with, accordant, accord with, be attuned to, bring into harmony, balance, temper, congruent, compatible, agreeable, mellow, pleasant, gentle, comfortable, calm, peaceful...shuowen: means either plenty of grain to eat which is harmonious conditions, or people singing together implying harmony.

其 qí = their

光 = guāng = light, shining, glowing, sheen, glossy, luster, lustrous, aura, cast light on, illuminate, glorious, splendid, time or a moment of time...shuowen: fire over person.

 

literal: harmonize their light

 

Translation: let their inner light become harmonious and at peace

 

(What is the light that’s being referred to here? It’s hard to say. The character for light shows the fire radical over the person radical…it’s a light that has to do with the individual. What “light” do we have? Awareness. Spirit. Qi. Aura. We could interpret it as many things…in order to imply that it’s about the individual, I simply say “inner light”, and I think the inherent meaning is conveyed well.)

 

...........................

 

同 tóng = share with or in, join, coincide with, conform with, similarity, likeness, of like mind, sameness, identity, coequal, identical to, no more than, together, in concert, name of 13th hexagram...shuowen: picture of a lid covering an opening.

其 qí = their

塵 chén = dust particles, smallest amount, traces, worldly, mundane...dust of the world...shuowen: dust cloud after running deer.

 

literal: coincide with their dust

 

Translation: and blend into oneness with their surroundings.

 

(Tong implies blending and being one with something, or being one with something as in a lid covering an opening, despite being different parts. In this context, it’s about them becoming one with something, not simply being it. A person is a different part from their surroundings. Why do I say “surroundings” for dust? Dust of the world is one definition. Dust also implies material…so our bodies, the chair, the air, the room, the outdoors. It’s all material, in contrast to our light, the immaterial aspect that is what we are, which was discussed in the previous line. The two, the light and the dust, are like the lid and the opening…they are one despite being different. The English terminology I used here simply gives a palpable sense of what’s implied.)

 

………

 

是 shì = demonstrative pronoun referring to a type: these

謂 wèi = speak to, address, say, followed by something something...speak about, tell of, followed by something something...to call, term, refer to as, to mean...introduces condition situation...

玄 xuán = quality of permitting the passage of light but without making visible what's on the other side, translucent, semi-transparent such as the sky, not able to be fully known or described in detail, mysterious, arcane, dark of the mind, often used as a synonym of the Dao, blackish color, dim, murky, opaque, associated with heaven as yellow is associated with earth, state of original qi of heaven, symbolic color of the north and tortoise....shuowen: to put thread in green dye, as in referring to the color of opacity.

同 tóng = share with or in, join, coincide with, conform with, simiar, likeness, samness, identical to, together, in concert, in 13th hexagram....same character as in last line...shuowen: lid covering an opening.

 

literal: these (phrases) tell of mystery joining

 

Translation: These words instruct on how to attain oneness with the Mysterious Dao.

 

(Shi is “these”, referring to the previous lines. Wei says that the lines speak to a subject. The subject is xuan tong, directly translated as mystery joining. A grammar rule is “that which modifies comes before what is being modified”. So, xuan is modifying the meaning of tong. This basically means, what type of “joining” are we referring to? The mysterious type. Xuan is a synonym of the Dao…therefore, I chose to translate that as “the Mysterious Dao”. It’s the type of joining or becoming-one-with that has to do with the Mysterious Dao.)

Edited December 31, 2015 by Aetherous

[opendao]

There are literal word for word translations, which some might assume are accurate...but the truth is that Chinese uses words which don't have a direct translation into English. Chinese words can contain multiple meanings, or also hint at multiple different things, at the same time. There are also the grammatical particles which are characters that don't even have a word, but sometimes can modify words before or after them. The correct way to translate Classical Chinese is to consider all of this at once, in order to ascertain the meaning...and then take that meaning, without altering it, and forge an English sentence out of it.

 

that's clear, but such manipulation create an illusion of meaning and lead to confusions:

 

Those who are enlightened, sit in silence.

Those who think they know something, are forever talking.

 

There are no highlighted words in the Chinese text. Just as example.

 

I'm not saying my translation is 100% correct...actually I just found something wrong with it when looking at it again. I'm just a beginner, but have a good teacher who is a sinologist. I am thinking about sharing my translation notes with the board, so people could easily see how I came to what I did...not much was added of my own interpretation. It was mostly in the etymology of the characters themselves.

 

that's all good. Without trying, how to achieve anything? Etymology is also very important. But real practical knowledge of Dao cultivation is what really works.

 

It's a good point, that coming to this chapter with ideas about it being about meditation might skew the results of the translation. However, I think that's exactly what it's about...other translations that point to something else don't make sense, such as ChiDragon's translation earlier in the thread.

 

well, that's why I decided to write at least something about it. For now, there is no one translation of DDJ that explains its meaning correctly.

 

At the time it was written, Daoism and its schools and initiates didn't exist. The Confucian tradition did...Laozi was its own thing, though. People never really grasped it.

 

Daoism is just a term. Read historical annals, you'll find who were initiated in what tradition. Shortly speaking, it's wrong what you're talking. If Laozi was "its own thing" then he couldn't initiate Dao schools. They all are from him if you don't know. And it's not just exaggeration. 

 

I realize that sitting empty meditation conflicts strongly with what your school teaches, but it doesn't conflict with what the majority of Daoism throughout history has taught. Other Daoist lineages don't have a problem with such a practice.

 

just curious, can you name a lineage, results they've achieved and your source of knowledge how exactly they achieved that?

 

And we don't have any problems with this practice: if performed correctly, it helps in the beginning. But it's not a main method in Southern Schools, and there are more efficient ones for the same purposes, without side effects that are criticized. And sitting work on further stages is different from "dull sitting", that's right. It doesn't mean that "Dazuo" as taught, lets say, by Huineng, doesn't work. The problem is that nowadays it's hard to find people who teach it correctly.

 

I'm just going to disagree with you, considering that I'm able to read the text and think for myself. I appreciate that your school has a different interpretation of Daoism than most of Daoism has, which might be legitimate within its own context, but I don't think it's appropriate to apply that interpretation to the rest of Daoism as absolute truth...especially when it contradicts.

 

Nobody positions our understanding as an "absolute truth", but if it explains texts, oral teaching, other traditions (Buddhist, Yoga, European Alchemy at least), AND bring practical results not available in other schools, but confirmed in texts, then it's hard to find any space for mistakes. Sure, various deviations, Qigong-clones and neo-taoists don't fit into the frame of the ancient Dao, but who cares if they produce no comparable result? All such questions have been investigated by many generations of researchers (see the biography of Liu Hua Yang at least). So I'd really want to know what contradicts with what ))

[Aetherous]

Daoism is just a term. Read historical annals, you'll find who were initiated in what tradition. Shortly speaking, it's wrong what you're talking. If Laozi was "its own thing" then he couldn't initiate Dao schools. They all are from him if you don't know. And it's not just exaggeration.

 

Research into the beginnings of Daoism and Laozi is very good for those who identify as Daoists to do...perhaps this is not the thread for that discussion, since it's supposed to be about this chapter. Here is one person's research. I haven't personally read the historical annals (aside from reading that the existence or personage of Laozi is debated), but am aware that "Daoism" began hundreds of years after the Laozi was written...China had gone through big changes during that time, with the hundred schools and the Han synthesis, prior to the beginnings of "Daoism". It's apparent that the beginnings of Daoism were quite different from what's written in the Laozi...for instance with the Tai Ping Jing...as well as being different from what Daoism has come to be today, with its internal alchemy practices that had their origin in external alchemy pills. To me, it seems that early Daoist lineages claimed to be direct descendants of Laozi the person, although their teachings show that to be questionable. A lot of Chinese history is muddled by white lies like this...it's part of Chinese culture to make big claims that aren't accurate. For instance, attributing the Huang Di Nei Jing to Huangdi, who had nothing to do with it.

[opendao]

Research into the beginnings of Daoism and Laozi is very good for those who identify as Daoists to do...perhaps this is not the thread for that discussion, since it's supposed to be about this chapter. Here is one person's research. I haven't personally read the historical annals (aside from reading that the existence or personage of Laozi is debated), but am aware that "Daoism" began hundreds of years after the Laozi was written...China had gone through big changes during that time, with the hundred schools and the Han synthesis, prior to the beginnings of "Daoism". It's apparent that the beginnings of Daoism were quite different from what's written in the Laozi...for instance with the Tai Ping Jing...as well as being different from what Daoism has come to be today, with its internal alchemy practices that had their origin in external alchemy pills. To me, it seems that early Daoist lineages claimed to be direct descendants of Laozi the person, although their teachings show that to be questionable. A lot of Chinese history is muddled by white lies like this...it's part of Chinese culture to make big claims that aren't accurate. For instance, attributing the Huang Di Nei Jing to Huangdi, who had nothing to do with it.

 

You speak about religious institutional Daoism, which is not the beginning, but decline of Dao teaching 

 

When I speak about Dao, I speak about Dao teaching, which was summed up by Lao Zi, but even he wasn't the creator.

 

"Daoism" is just a term (in English), it means only "a teaching about Dao", nothing more. Same as "Buddhism", "Atheism" and other "isms", it doesn't imply any religious movement, temples etc

 

To say that internal alchemy had their origins in external, is to follow the logic of scholars who are very far away from any Neidan practice: if Neidan used some language of Waidan, it says very little about its methods. Same as when Dao texts use Buddhist terminology, it doesn't mean Dao methods were taken from Buddhism...

 

Neidan is the same as the Ancient Dao of Lao Zi. And DDJ can confirm that, if we stop trying to fit the modern pseudo-Daoism onto the alchemy texts. Instead we need to find the oneness of all traditional schools and teachings, the core of what we call "Daoism" or "Alchemy" today. Again, DDJ is a corner stone in such process, and you can see how many factors affect the translation of any chapter.

Edited December 31, 2015 by opendao

[flowing hands]

Dao or a way has been known by the ancient Chinese long before LZ time. We must remember that it was the ancient shamans and hermits that first began to understand the way. Then it was called the 'spirit way' for knowledge came via this path. eventually when the Chinese took to symbols, a symbol was developed that consisted of the head of a shaman and a foot. Which we now understand to mean 'the way'. 

 

Any translation from ancient Chinese texts that are attributed to being from LZ is really a waste of time to translate. In 1986 LZ came to me one day when I was begging the three Immortals for the fa fu, fa shui and he said to me that he was willing to teach me his true teachings. So what I have given is the nearest translation in English to what he originally wrote, you won't find any better as it has come from the horses mouth so to speak. So lines of my transmission are the same in other translations, for he said to me that there was not a better way to say it. Some of my verses he told to me are completely different to any others and have a different meaning.

[Marblehead]

 We must remember that it was the ancient shamans and hermits that first began to understand the way.

I try to forget that but you keep reminding me.

[Taoist Texts]

It's a good point, that coming to this chapter with ideas about it being about meditation might skew the results of the translation. However, I think that's exactly what it's about...other translations that point to something else don't make sense,  

 

At the time it was written, Daoism and its schools and initiates didn't exist. The Confucian tradition did...Laozi was its own thing, though. People never really grasped it.

 

I realize that sitting empty meditation 

 

If by meditation you mean an inner work in general then your interpretation is correct. That work is not limited to sitting empty but includes it among other types of inner work. Also this inner work was conducted not only for personal betterment but for the purposes of governing the state.

 

Good work on the notes too.

[opendao]

Any translation from ancient Chinese texts that are attributed to being from LZ is really a waste of time to translate. In 1986 LZ came to me one day when I was begging the three Immortals for the fa fu, fa shui and he said to me that he was willing to teach me his true teachings. So what I have given is the nearest translation in English to what he originally wrote, you won't find any better as it has come from the horses mouth so to speak. So lines of my transmission are the same in other translations, for he said to me that there was not a better way to say it. Some of my verses he told to me are completely different to any others and have a different meaning.

 

yeah, usual situation 

 

If the chapter is so easy to crack, and "sit in silence" is enough to get "the unite mystery", then why there is no one who can achieve Dao this way? I mean Dao as described in DDJ, and not "shamanic path" of unknown origin. Same with De. Same with Wuwei.

[opendao]

If by meditation you mean an inner work in general then your interpretation is correct. That work is not limited to sitting empty but includes it among other types of inner work. Also this inner work was conducted not only for personal betterment but for the purposes of governing the state.

 

The chapter is not about inner work as you understand it... What is a method to cultivate Dao? It's described in DDJ in details, by the way.

[Marblehead]

True the chapter is not speaking to only the concept of remaining silent.  And true it is speaking to the concept of wu wei in all its variations.

 

And true it is that attaining a state of wu wei is not all that easy.

 

And true, in the state of wu one can experience Dao.

 

I think it might be misleading to suggest that we cultivate Dao.  Perhaps more at cultivating "wu". (wu wei).

[Taoist Texts]

There are three kinds of people who are interested in DDJ.

 

The first one are numerous visitors from outer space. The DDJ is written by the shamans for the shamans; it is a neidan manual; it is not comprehensible without paying a fee into an MLM teaching pyramid, etc. There is really no arguing with such folks.

 

The second one are honest amateurs who are trying to translate the DDJ without being informed by the huge contemporaneous literature. They substitute word for word using a basic dictionary, which does not include the technical language of that era. Sometime they get the gist of a passage right, most of the time they don’t.

 

Intriguingly, I am the only one (including the academic community), who translates DDJ by cross-referencing it to the received contemporaneous corpus.

 

So…

 

道德經:           56

 

The DDJ56 is a short essay in 4 parts (using Legge for initial bearings):

 

 

(1)He who knows (the Dao) does not (care to) speak (about it); he who is (ever ready to) speak about it does not know it.

知者不言，言者不知。

 

(2)He (who knows it) will keep his mouth shut and close the portals (of his nostrils). He will blunt his sharp points and unravel the complications of things; he will attemper his brightness,

塞其兑，閉其門，挫其銳，解其分，和其光，

 

 (3)and bring himself into agreement with the obscurity (of others). This is called 'the Mysterious Agreement.'

同其塵，是謂玄同。

 

(4)(Such an one) cannot be treated familiarly or distantly; he is beyond all consideration of profit or injury; beyond all consideration of nobility or meanness: - he is the noblest man under heaven.

故不可得而親，不可得而踈；不可得而利，不可得而害；不可得而貴，不可得而賤。故為天下貴。

 

The part (1) 知者不言，言者不知 (the knowledgeable do not talk, the talkers do not know) sounds mysterious but only to those who are ignorant of ZZ and Kong-zi. It’s a simple and widely accepted in those times idea that speech is an inadequate tool for governing. There are better tools. Which ones exactly? They are specified in the rest of 56.

 

Two examples would suffice:

 

 

《庄子 - Zhuangzi》                        [Warring States] 350 BC-250 BC

 

世之所贵道者，书也，书不过语，语有贵也。语之所贵者，意也，意有所随。意之所随者，不可以言传也，而世因贵言传书。世虽贵之，我犹不足贵也，为其贵非其贵也。故视而可见者，形与色也；听而可闻者，名与声也。悲夫！世人以形色名声为足以得彼之情！夫形色名声果不足以得彼之情，则知者不言，言者不知，而世岂识之哉！

What the world thinks the most valuable exhibition of the Dao is to be found in books. But books are only a collection of words. Words have what is valuable in them - what is valuable in words is the ideas they convey. But those ideas are a sequence of something else - and what that something else is cannot be conveyed by words. ….The form and colour, the name and sound, are certainly not sufficient to convey its real nature; and so it is that 'the wise do not speak and those who do speak are not wise.'

 

《論語 - The Analects》, [spring and Autumn - Warring States] 480 BC-350 BC

 

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」

The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?"

[Marblehead]

Your post reminded me that I should read Red Pine's translation again but with a more open mind when I do.

[opendao]

 

Intriguingly, I am the only one (including the academic community), who translates DDJ by cross-referencing it to the received contemporaneous corpus.

 

seriously? the only one in the western academic community who knows about thousands of comments to Laozi, contemporary texts and use them in the translation / explanation? I don't think it's true. Many people do that, as far as I know. What they publish is another story. But in China it's a common thing to use every possible source. However very often it brings more confusion then clarity...

 

The part (1) 知者不言，言者不知 (the knowledgeable do not talk, the talkers do not know) sounds mysterious but only to those who are ignorant of ZZ and Kong-zi. It’s a simple and widely accepted in those times idea that speech is an inadequate tool for governing. There are better tools. Which ones exactly? They are specified in the rest of 56.

 

Right, though it's obvious from DDJ itself. And the chapter is addressed to a person, who needs to "express Dao" without words (obviously not a newbie student) to rule the country (see chapters around to get the context). So the chapter explains WHAT has to be achieved by such a person to make it happen. But it says very little about HOW to do that, because at that level it just happens (wuwei, really). So it's more like a description, but not an instruction... 

 

That's why any continuous attempts to simply "sit in silence", and intentionally mimic the described state using mind or "shut mouth and nostrils" using funny devices, breath holding or fasting, such "inner work" gives no results, comparable to what Lao Zi defined as Dao.

 

What's about 'noble man under heaven' who can rule without words? How many practitioners achieved that so we know about it? But such people can be found in the real life, and it confirms the message of Lao Zi. And next step of any serious research is to find such people and ask them how did they achieved Dao. Then it's possible to compare with texts again...

 

Without practical, life examples of Dao attainment, all we can do is to believe and guess, which has no sense.

[Aetherous]

So it's more like a description, but not an instruction... 

 

It's definitely an instruction for people who are capable of doing it. It uses verbs!

[opendao]

It's definitely an instruction for people who are capable of doing it. It uses verbs!

 

oh yeah, it changes everything    So what exactly to do? Close left nostril first? Or release knots? Which knots? 

 

I wrote: it happens automatically, that's why it's more like a description. There is nothing to do, but you're right, it's only "for people who are capable of doing it".

 

p.s. btw, I really suggest you to make a grammar analysis of the chapter, then probably you'll change your opinion about verbs. Phrases like 閉丌兌賽丌門 are not so straightforward here, and allow different translations.

Edited January 3, 2016 by opendao

[Aetherous]

Lets consider the argument that it only describes something which happens automatically at a high level of practice...what about the part where you basically "cut off your discrimination" (解其分)? To say that these are an automatic result, an attainment of an adept, implies that such a person loses the ability to discriminate between things. Something which any normal person can do. Attainment should not be a disability...

 

edit:

 

btw, I really suggest you to make a grammar analysis of the chapter

If you look at my notes on the previous page you can see the grammar considerations. What more are there? If you have something to contribute to the analysis of this chapter, please do.

 

Phrases like 閉丌兌賽丌門 are not so straightforward here

 

You must be using a different version of the Laozi than myself, since those characters are different...

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aetherous

[Brian]

A description seems an apt description. The work describes how many aspects of the world developed and describes some of the changes one may experience whilst relaxing into one's nature and realizing an understanding of the path.

[opendao]

Lets consider the argument that it only describes something which happens automatically at a high level of practice...what about the part where you basically "cut off your discrimination" (解其分)? To say that these are an automatic result, an attainment of an adept, implies that such a person loses the ability to discriminate between things. Something which any normal person can do. Attainment should not be a disability...

 

解其紛 is not about "discriminations", try to find a better translation (even in this thread there is some).

[Aetherous]

解其紛 is not about "discriminations", try to find a better translation (even in this thread there is some).

 

解其分  is exactly about that...once again, it seems we're using different versions of the Daodejing here.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aetherous

[opendao]

You must be using a different version of the Laozi than myself, since those characters are different...

 

I've copied it from dustybeijing's. It was a Guodyan version. 

 

Wang Bi: 塞其兌閉其門 etc

[opendao]

畜丌解丌紛                               Balancing shares, untangling knots,

 

no, it's not, try to check the trad version of the character: 紛

Edited January 3, 2016 by opendao

[Aetherous]

no, it's not, try to check the trad version of the character: 紛

 

It's not simplified and traditional...they are different characters. 紛 simply contains the phonetic of 分. The Shuowen records them as different. Interesting that it was apparently used in the Guodian version though.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Aetherous

[opendao]

It's not simplified and traditional...they are different characters. 紛 simply contains the phonetic of 分. The Shuowen records them as different.

 

right. I've just guessed why it was in your variant... In all traditional variants I have 分 is not used. Where did you take your source?  

[Aetherous]

http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

[opendao]

http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

 

funny, even on the image they have 分: http://ctext.org/photo.pl?if=en&node=11647

 

http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC56.pdf seems more accurate.

 

edit: link was wrong

Edited January 3, 2016 by opendao