[TTC Study] Chapter 56 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

I was going to work on better wording, honest guv

 

 

智之者弗言 One who knows does not talk,

言之者弗智 One who talks does not know;

閉丌兌賽丌門 Closing doors, blunting edges,

和丌光同丌謹 Softening light, aligning ambitions,

畜丌解丌紛 Balancing shares, untangling knots,

是胃玄同 Is called unifying the mystery;

古不可㝵而新 Without closeness,

亦不可㝵而疋 One can feel no distance;

不可㝵而利 Without benefit,

亦不可㝵而害 One can feel no harm;

不可㝵而貴 Without treasures,

亦不可㝵而戔 One can feel no destitution;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all things

 

 

 

The thing is, unless I'm missing something, the writer makes it no clearer than that. I am quite tired, though. And open to suggestions.

 

不可㝵而利 not can get benefit/profit,

亦不可㝵而害 also not can get harm;

不可㝵而貴 not can get treasured things,

亦不可㝵而戔 also not can get lowly/no things

 

note: 戔 is taken to be variant of 賤 jian base/lowly (which my girlfriend used to call me often)

 

“A translator ought to endeavor not only to say what his author has said, but to say it as he has said it.”

Edited November 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[ChiDragon]

This is why I don't pay attention to Legge translations. Where under heaven did he get "nostrils" from?

 

My (thus far very unpolished) GD:

 

古不可㝵而新 Not obtaining closeness,

亦不可㝵而疋 One cannot obtain distance,

不可㝵而利 Not obtaining profit,

亦不可㝵而害 One cannot obtain harm,

不可㝵而貴 Not obtaining riches,

亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all

 

Dustybeijing....

 

It seems to me that you had left out the most important character "而" in you translation to throw the logic off.

 

亦不可㝵而戔 One cannot obtain poverty;,

I would translate this line as:

Also(亦), cannot be obtained, then(而), it is the lack of.

[dust]

Well, I didn't to it in order to throw the logic off!

 

I am very much willing to accept that I've used 而 wrongly, except that I don't know how all the lines would make sense if you look at it like that?

 

不可㝵而利 can't obtain then profit

亦不可㝵而害 also can't obtain then harm

不可㝵而貴 can't obtain then rich

亦不可㝵而戔 also can't obtain then poverty

 

?

Edited November 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[ChiDragon]

It will not make any sense if one makes the interpretation in the modern way word for word.

As classic, then I would interpret them this way:

不可㝵而利 If something which cannot be obtained, then it may be beneficial (like drugs).

亦不可㝵而害 Also, if something which cannot be obtained, then it may be harmful (like medicine).

不可㝵而貴 If something which is hard to be obtained, then it may be precious.

亦不可㝵而戔 Also, if something which cannot be obtained, then it may be something that was missing.

Note:
In the ancient, the character "戔" is a synonym for "殘 (lack of)." Like "殘缺": it is like missing an arm or a leg.

Edited November 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

The thing is, unless I'm missing something, the writer makes it no clearer than that. I am quite tired, though. And open to suggestions.

Thats quite true, its a hellishly difficult chpt to translate. Moreover it cant be done without being familiar with the background. This chapter is shorthand, luckily the main concepts of it are unveiled in full here:

 

 

《文子 - Wenzi》

 

 

《九守》

 

《道德》

老子曰：釋道而任智者危，棄數而用才者困，故守分循理，失之不憂，得之不喜。成者非所為，得者非所求，入者有受而無取，出者有授而無與，因春而生，因秋而殺，所生不德，所殺不怨，則幾於道矣。

文子問曰：王者得其歡心，為之奈何？

老子曰：若江海即是也，「淡兮無味，用之不既」，先小而後大。「夫欲上人者，必以其言下之，欲先人者，必以其身後之」，天下必效其歡愛，進其仁義，而無苛氣，「居上而民不重，居前而眾不害，天下樂推而不厭。」雖絕國殊俗，蜎飛蠕動，莫不親，無之而不通，無往而不遂，「故為天下貴。」

 

Lao-zi said: to let go of Dao (autocratic governing) and relying on the experts instead is dangerous; to abandon calculations and employing the technocrats instead is problematic; therefore (the king) should be happy with his natural lot, not saddened by a loss, not gladdened by a gain. Accomplishing without acting, obtaining without seeking, accepting what comes to you without taking, giving up what leaves you without clinging, letting live in spring, executing in autumn, let live without mercy, execute without anger, this is the mechanism of Dao.

Wen-zi asked: how can the king make the hearts of people loyal and loving him?

Lao-zi replied: it is like rivers and sea ‘the water is potable when it has not reach the sea yet’, when it is small and not big. That’s why ‘if you want to rise above people then in speech you should belittle yourself, and if you want to be ahead of people you should place your body behind them’, then the Underheaven will certainly be loyal and loving him, if he promotes humanness and duty, and does not spread harsh qi. Then it will be that ‘the superiors do not burden the people, the leaders do not harm the people, if so the Underheaven will rejoice and not reject the king’. (Let the king in relations) with the outlying states, even if they are like worms and moths, not be close with any, not to make advances to them, nor retain them, not pursue them, in this way he will become the most cherished sovereign in the Underheaven.

[dust]

So, tell me a bit about the Wenzi? I mean, what you believe it to be, etc. (I hate 蚊子, but might be ok with 文子.)

Edited January 3, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

oh its a fantastic text. without it, to understand TTC you would need to pore over quotations from legists, ZZ, confucians in order to build a frame of reference but Wenzi is like teacher's textbook with all answers to problems provided in the back.

 

In 1973, Chinese archeologists excavated a Han Dynasty tomb near Dingzhou 定州 (or Dingxian 定縣) in Hebei. Its occupant is identified as King Huai 懷王 of Zhongshan (state), who died in 55 BCE. Tomb furnishings included a precious Jade burial suit, jade ornaments, writing tools, and remnants of eight Chinese classic texts, including the Wenzi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzi

 

In fact, the value of TTC is two-fold A. it is pithy and poetical and B. its incomprehensible (ppl need that). Otherwise if you really really want to know what TTC is about you gotta read Wenzi, of course it is still untranslated.

[Marblehead]

... of course it is still untranslated.

That's no help to me what-so-ever! Hehehe.

[dust]

oh its a fantastic text. without it, to understand TTC you would need to pore over quotations from legists, ZZ, confucians in order to build a frame of reference but Wenzi is like teacher's textbook with all answers to problems provided in the back.

 

I think, though I'm not sure, that one can come to an understanding of each separate existing version of the Laozi by studying them closely, as we have been doing.

 

What I mean is that I don't think there's only one understanding of the TTC, because there's more than one TTC.

 

And if Wenzi wrote a guide to the TTC, which version does it apply to?

 

 

Its occupant is identified as King Huai 懷王 of Zhongshan (state), who died in 55 BCE. Tomb furnishings included a precious Jade burial suit, jade ornaments, writing tools, and remnants of eight Chinese classic texts, including the Wenzi

 

Perhaps it was a teacher's textbook (for people like this king, because he wasn't good with studies!)

[Taoist Texts]

I think, though I'm not sure, that one can come to an understanding of each separate existing version of the Laozi by studying them closely, as we have been doing.

 

What I mean is that I don't think there's only one understanding of the TTC, because there's more than one TTC.

 

i donno. Its like saying that there is more than one physics because there are several editions of the same Physics 101.

[Taoist Texts]

Perhaps it was a teacher's textbook (for people like this king, because he wasn't good with studies!)

he took it along to study for all eternity.

[dust]

So if there's no translation, you've been translating it yourself, in an effort to better understand and translate the TTC?

[Taoist Texts]

yes bits and pieces of it

 

《文子 - Wenzi》

 

《文子》 [Also known as: 《通玄真經》]

 

《上禮》

老子曰：為禮者雕琢人性，矯拂其情，目雖欲之禁以度，心雖樂之節以禮，趣翔周旋，屈節卑拜，肉凝而不食，酒徵而不飲，外束其形，內愁其德，鉗陰陽之和而迫性命之情，故終身為哀人。何則？不本其所以欲，而禁其所欲，不原其所以樂，而防其所樂，是猶圈獸而不塞其垣，禁其野心，決江河之流而壅之以手，故曰：開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

 

Lao-zi said: to use ritual to polish people’s nature, to straighten their emotions, means to ban the desire of the eye using propriety, to regulate the joy of the heart with ritual. If it develops it will lead to flattery and false humbleness, it will be like storing meat – and not eating it, like filtering wine – and not drinking it, the body will be bound from outside, the virtue will be stifled on the inside, the harmony of yin and yang will like in pincers and passions of Xing-Ming will be strained, so this will be one ruined person his whole life. How so? Because to forbid him desires and joys it will be like putting a wild beast into a cage with transparent walls, constraining his wild heart would be like stopping the flow of a river with the palm of your heart. That is why (TTC) says: ‘close your senses, stop your affairs, then your entire life there will be no saving you’.

 

 

and for the good mesure on the same chapter

 

《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)]

 

《道應訓》

:

齊王后死，王欲置後而未定。使群臣議。薛公欲中王之意，因獻十珥而美其一。旦日，因問美珥之所在。因勸立以為王后。齊王大說，遂尊重薛公。故人主之意欲見於外，則為人臣之所制。故老子曰：「塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。」

 

In the choice of a wife, don't be led away by the senses.—After the death of the queen of Ch‛i, the King desired to choose a queen-consort from the concubines. The matter still pending, he took counsel with the ministerial body. Duke Hsueh, wishing to fall in with the purpose of the King, sent a present of ten ear-rings of which one pair was most beautiful. One morning, later, p. 131 he enquired of the servitors which of the maids had the beautiful pair and advised the king to make her his consort. (He thus wished to curry favour with the king and the new queen). The king of Ch‛i was most delighted and heaped honours on Duke Hsueh. Thus when the master's desires are revealed to the servant, a handle is given the servant to control the master. Just as Lao Tzu says: (Chap. 52.)

"PLUG UP THE AVENUE OF THE SENSES; CLOSE UP THE DOOR OF THE DESIRES. THIS WILL STOP THE CARES OF LIFE."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/tgl/tgl5.htm

[dust]

《上禮》

老子曰：為禮者雕琢人性，矯拂其情，目雖欲之禁以度，心雖樂之節以禮，趣翔周旋，屈節卑拜，肉凝而不食，酒徵而不飲，外束其形，內愁其德，鉗陰陽之和而迫性命之情，故終身為哀人。何則？不本其所以欲，而禁其所欲，不原其所以樂，而防其所樂，是猶圈獸而不塞其垣，禁其野心，決江河之流而壅之以手，故曰：開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。

 

Lao-zi said: to use ritual to polish people’s nature, to straighten their emotions, means to ban the desire of the eye using propriety, to regulate the joy of the heart with ritual. If it develops it will lead to flattery and false humbleness, it will be like storing meat – and not eating it, like filtering wine – and not drinking it, the body will be bound from outside, the virtue will be stifled on the inside, the harmony of yin and yang will like in pincers and passions of Xing-Ming will be strained, so this will be one ruined person his whole life. How so? Because to forbid him desires and joys it will be like putting a wild beast into a cage with transparent walls, constraining his wild heart would be like stopping the flow of a river with the palm of your heart. That is why (TTC) says: ‘close your senses, stop your affairs, then your entire life there will be no saving you’.

 

The explanation certainly works. Obviously the red bit stuck out to me.

 

The Chinese here says "open (qi) dui, assist (qi) affairs, to the end of life no saving"

 

In the GD, the equivalent says " 閉丌兌 賽丌門 ", which many think is an error, and switch it to get " 賽丌兌 閉丌門 "

 

Note that 兌 here is accompanied by the 辶 walking/movement radical

and that what's been interpreted as 閉 shut could as easily be 開 open

 

 

Now, in the Wenzi here, he talks about regulating the joy of the heart with ritual.

 

rui/dui/yue 兑 兌 could mean "sharp", "exchange", or it could mean "happiness" (as the ancient variant of 悦)

 

Could this 開其兌 then not refer to opening the joy of the heart?

Edited November 7, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

I was going to work on better wording, honest guv

 

 

智之者弗言 One who knows does not talk,

言之者弗智 One who talks does not know;

閉丌兌賽丌門 Closing doors, blunting edges,

和丌光同丌謹 Softening light, aligning ambitions,

畜丌解丌紛 Balancing shares, untangling knots,

是胃玄同 Is called unifying the mystery;

 

Unifying to what mystery? ... to heaven and earth but ultimately to Dao

 

古不可㝵而新 Without closeness,

亦不可㝵而疋 One can feel no distance;

不可㝵而利 Without benefit,

亦不可㝵而害 One can feel no harm;

不可㝵而貴 Without treasures,

亦不可㝵而戔 One can feel no destitution;

古爲天下貴 And one treasures all things

 

Opposites can be seen as opposing each other or complimenting as a whole. Because this is about "unity with Dao", this is complimentary pairs making a whole:

 

One neither obtains....

... closeness nor distance

... benefit nor harm

... honor nor debasement

In this way, everything under heaven is treasured/precious

 

 

note: 戔 is taken to be variant of 賤 jian base/lowly (which my girlfriend used to call me often)

 

ergo, debasement above

[dawei]

yes bits and pieces of it

 

how would you feel about a sub-forum for Wenzi for a room where you can lead a translation?

[Taoist Texts]

how would you feel about a sub-forum for Wenzi for a room where you can lead a translation?

hmmm, thanks....sure why the heck not?

[Taoist Texts]

 

The Chinese here says "open (qi) dui,

assist (qi) affairs,

济（济）jì

 

⒈渡，过河：同船～水。同舟共～。

 

⒉帮助，援救：接～。救～。～穷扶贫。

 

⒊有利，补益：万民以～。

 

⒋成：夫～大事必以人为本。

[dust]

But as 成 in this sense would it not mean "complete” or "accomplish"?

[dust]

Unifying to what mystery? ... to heaven and earth but ultimately to Dao

 

Yes, though in translation I don't want to specify any more than the text does

 

 

One neither obtains....

... closeness nor distance

... benefit nor harm

... honor nor debasement

In this way, everything under heaven is treasured/precious

 

I like!

[Aetherous]

I got interested in this chapter (56) recently because it appeared to me to be one of the few practical passages regarding the methods of the Dao...meditation. So I used some translation resources (Kroll's classical dictionary, Shuowen, a decent understanding of the English language, as well as a halfway decent understanding of modern teachings in Daoism and Buddhism) to come up with a different non-literal translation of the first part of it, which at least personally I think is more accurate than most. It's not aiming to be poetic sounding or terse, or have literary accuracy in terms of a word for word translation, as is the typical style...but is meant to be as accurate as possible in meaning:

Those who could reveal the truth to you - they do not reveal it through talking;

the words of those who claim to be revealing the truth to you are inaccurate - such people don't truly know it.

 

As for those who would know, they replenish themselves by maintaining quietude,
lock the doors of their spirit (the senses, thoughts, emotions) and keep it within,
sit still and allow their minds to rest without focusing on anything in particular,
free themselves completely from the mind's tendency to discriminate between anything,
let their inner light become harmonious and at peace,
and blend into oneness with their surroundings.
These words instruct on how to attain oneness with the Mysterious Dao.

 

Why didn't I translate the rest of chapter 56? I was only interested in (what I think is) the practical meditation part, and didn't want to spend much more time on this. The two italicized portions combined indicate to me that you can't attain knowledge/gnosis through conversing about this stuff, about the Dao - you have to gain practical experience as a means of knowing, and the primary way to do that according to the Laozi is laid out.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Aetherous

[Marblehead]

Those who could reveal the truth to you - they do not reveal it through talking;

the words of those who claim to be revealing the truth to you are inaccurate - such people don't truly know it.

Even back then there was the concept of political correctness.

 

As for those who would know, they replenish themselves by maintaining quietude,

lock the doors of their spirit (the senses, thoughts, emotions) and keep it within,

sit still and allow their minds to rest without focusing on anything in particular,

free themselves completely from the mind's tendency to discriminate between anything,

let their inner light become harmonious and at peace,

and blend into oneness with their surroundings.

These words instruct on how to attain oneness with the Mysterious Dao.

This is what I call "empty-minded meditation".  All that remains is an interconnectedness with the spirit of Tao.  (It is not a mental interconnectedness.)

[Jonesboy]

I like this translation from Shaman Flowing Hands:

 

CHAPTER 56

Those who are enlightened, sit in silence.

Those who think they know something, are forever talking.

In silence and peace one can become enlightened.

No one can teach someone else how to become enlightened,

for it stems from within the heart.

Be at one with Heaven and Earth and then you can become enlightened.

He who has become enlightened, is unconcerned with friends, enemies,

honour or disgrace, with wealth and titles.

For he has become at one with the Dao.

This is the highest state of man.

[opendao]

I got interested in this chapter (56) recently because it appeared to me to be one of the few practical passages regarding the methods of the Dao...meditation.

 

There are a few things to say about Dao De Jing, its translations, and how the text is studied by Daoists:

 

1) there is no need to add words, that are simply not in the received Chinese text.

 

2) chapters in Dao De Jing are connected, and it's hard to understand any without exploring others.

 

3) same as when we learn, we need to stop thinking we know anything valuable when we explore any sacred text.

If we start a translation with wrong pre-assumptions, what good can we get as a result?

 

4) Dao De Jing is about practice to transform into a sage, it is about Dao. If we know nothing about the Dao, if we're not initiated, then how we can guess what Lao Zi wrote to his students? He didn't write to everyone, to people. He wrote to students, to sages and kings (Dao adepts at that time).

 

5) there are many layers of sense in DDJ, some of them do open only at very top levels of practice. It's a long and repeatable process. 

 

About chapter 56. It's not about meditation. It's not an instruction for a student what to do. It has a different meaning.

 

Let's take dustybeijings translation as the closest to the Chinese text:

 

智之者弗言                                One who knows does not talk,

言之者弗智                                One who talks does not know;

 

Here is the sense of Dao De Jing: an explanation of the main method how to cultivate the Great Dao.

 

I don't feel right to express openly the meaning, at least not until my Teacher opens that, but I'll try to give some hints. Just take it as another point of view to push the limits ))

 

First of all,

---  One who knows does not talk ---

 

Does Lao Zi talk here? Yes. Obviously, he does.

Does it mean he doesn't know? No. Obviously, he knows.

 

To understand this chapter (and many other places in DDJ) this paradox has to be solved.

Edited December 31, 2015 by opendao

[Aetherous]

1) there is no need to add words, that are simply not in the received Chinese text.

 

There are literal word for word translations, which some might assume are accurate...but the truth is that Chinese uses words which don't have a direct translation into English. Chinese words can contain multiple meanings, or also hint at multiple different things, at the same time. There are also the grammatical particles which are characters that don't even have a word, but sometimes can modify words before or after them. The correct way to translate Classical Chinese is to consider all of this at once, in order to ascertain the meaning...and then take that meaning, without altering it, and forge an English sentence out of it.

 

There is benefit from having literal word for word translations, but they do end up leaving things out. This is why we must add words in order to have an accurate translation.

 

I'm not saying my translation is 100% correct...actually I just found something wrong with it when looking at it again. I'm just a beginner, but have a good teacher who is a sinologist. I am thinking about sharing my translation notes with the board, so people could easily see how I came to what I did...not much was added of my own interpretation. It was mostly in the etymology of the characters themselves.

 

2) chapters in Dao De Jing are connected, and it's hard to understand any without exploring others.

 

That is one part where my translation fails...because I haven't studied/translated the rest of the text to compare it. The other passages that talk about xuan/mystery or other aspects might give further hints about the meaning of this one. I noticed that chapter 4 was very similar.

 

3) same as when we learn, we need to stop thinking we know anything valuable when we explore any sacred text.

If we start a translation with wrong pre-assumptions, what good can we get as a result?

 

It's a good point, that coming to this chapter with ideas about it being about meditation might skew the results of the translation. However, I think that's exactly what it's about...other translations that point to something else don't make sense, such as ChiDragon's translation earlier in the thread.

 

4) Dao De Jing is about practice to transform into a sage, it is about Dao. If we know nothing about the Dao, if we're not initiated, then how we can guess what Lao Zi wrote to his students? He didn't write to everyone, to people. He wrote to students, to sages and kings (Dao adepts at that time).

 

At the time it was written, Daoism and its schools and initiates didn't exist. The Confucian tradition did...Laozi was its own thing, though. People never really grasped it.

 

I realize that sitting empty meditation conflicts strongly with what your school teaches, but it doesn't conflict with what the majority of Daoism throughout history has taught. Other Daoist lineages don't have a problem with such a practice.

 

5) there are many layers of sense in DDJ, some of them do open only at very top levels of practice. It's a long and repeatable process. 

 

This is true.

 

About chapter 56. It's not about meditation. It's not an instruction for a student what to do. It has a different meaning.

 

I'm just going to disagree with you, considering that I'm able to read the text and think for myself. I appreciate that your school has a different interpretation of Daoism than most of Daoism has, which might be legitimate within its own context, but I don't think it's appropriate to apply that interpretation to the rest of Daoism as absolute truth...especially when it contradicts.