Tradition and Lineages

[Vmarco]

So Traditions and Lineages can be good and have shades of grey also.

 

I disagree with the inter-faith notion that belief systems can be good,...as Osho said, it may appear to be a consulation, but consulation is opium.

 

All belief systems deny, disconnect, suppress, disempower.

 

V

[Informer]

The Zeitgeist guy is right in some way, that it involves identification - though I would say Zeitgeist movies are generally very opinionated and have a lot of fallacies on their own.

 

So Traditions and Lineages can be good and have shades of grey also. This is just common sense, why make such a fuss about it?

 

I haven't had a chance to talk to you much Chris, but might I point out that the statement you made seems a bit biased. "So Traditions and Lineages can be good and have shades of grey also." Does this statement seem a little off balanced to you in any way?

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 9, 2011 by chris d

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 9, 2011 by chris d

[Informer]

Informer, how was it biased?

 

When I said good, I meant that they can produce results. When I said grey, I meant they shouldn't be taken at face value without gaining direct experience.

 

The installation of beliefs is quite human - I guess it has more of a biological / neurological nature than the conspiracy people try to equate it to.

 

I meant that you said it can be good or gray, but intentionally or unintentionally omitted bad.

 

 

-9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

 

..............................^--------------------------^

 

Like you covered this part of the spectrum.

 

Is that how you see it?

Edited August 6, 2011 by Informer

[Vmarco]

I meant that you said it can be good or gray, but intentionally or unintentionally omitted bad.

 

 

-9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

 

..............................^--------------------------^

 

Like you covered this part of the spectrum.

 

Is that how you see it?

 

I found that, in that video quote I mentioned, at minute 14:06, and certainly minute 17:10, those observations about our indoctrinated prejudices are illustrated nicely.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCWNgSa7GvA&feature=related

 

My apologies Chris D,...for missing where you said that there were "truths" in that video,...I thought you were referring to the zeitgeist film

which was never my intent to bring up (and I agree with you that there is surely much opinion in it).

 

However, this discussion is about Traditions and Lineages.

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya, your beliefs are blinding you from reading what I've said.

 

First,...although your Lineage disagrees, other Buddhists have said, "it is important to remember that dependent origination is essentially and primarily a teaching that has to do with the problem of suffering and how to free ourselves from suffering, and not a description of the evolution of the universe."

 

In Buddhism, freedom from suffering means to never fall into ignorance again. If you take up a formless light as an eternal source of things, this will blissfully absorb you at the end of a cosmic aeon and re-express you as ignorant of the previous aeon of bliss. Thus you have not understood dependent origination, nor stopped suffering according to the Buddha view and there are many, many texts on this subject in the Vajrayana.

 

 

That is not my quote,...but I do share that position.

 

No you don't because you don't understand the position as it's contextualized by the Buddha.

 

You then continue with your false accusations that I worship an Infinite Light, which I have said. In fact, I recall posting that,...Infinity is another voguish belief topic among the object-ive minded. Theories of infinite space, time, and quantity are just more object-ive math. Definitions of infinity are related or relative to the concept of immeasurability in space, time, or quantity. However, if there is no space, time, or quantity, as implied by quantum cosmology, then there is no infinity.

 

Unqualifyable infinitude has no number and this is what that state of boundless conscious light is. It is merely one of the jhanas.

 

I also said that I am on the Short Path,...I don't have years to follow some guru object-ively,...I've already realized the delusion of objects. Your suggestion is akin to asking a geometrist to go back to grade school to learn arithmetic. Please, don't misinterpret me,...I'm sure that there are many people who feel they need to learn arithmetic,...I'm just not one of them. Once one has stepped onto the Short Path there is no going back to the Long Path's.

 

You see, you have this idea about short and long, you are impatient. This ideation that you have about short and long reveal not only that you don't understand dependent origination, you don't understand emptiness. Otherwise you would realize that it took you a long time to get to whatever short amount of time it might take for you to realize the nature of yourself. Time is relative and we've all been cycling since beginningless time.

 

So, of course it takes lifetimes to even enter into a human body, and much more to even enter into a spiritual path, and more to even enter a relationship with a great teacher or teaching that can influence you towards direct realization of the nature of things in one lifetime. So, to be so dogmatically opposed to long, versus short does not really reveal much realization of relativity to me.

 

Although those on the Long Path's appear to love calling those on the Short Path prideful and such, you really don't have a clue, because any pride has been effortless extinguished as a consequence of entering the Short Path. Thus, your insistent character assassinations is just proof of your own Long Path level,...and attachment to the delusion of humility.

 

 

Unfortunately, the immature who see no humility, and automatically prescribe pride, are way too caught up in duality.

 

V

 

Your concepts of short versus long is also dualistic. You haven not come to the place of no more learning, thus, you are still on the path, be it short or long... it doesn't matter. Get some help. Or you can keep belittling us poor people as "long" path brain washed robots.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I disagree with the inter-faith notion that belief systems can be good,...as Osho said, it may appear to be a consulation, but consulation is opium.

 

All belief systems deny, disconnect, suppress, disempower.

 

V

 

Why do you keep quoting fools?

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

Why do you keep quoting fools?

 

Why do you continue attacking messengers instead of commenting on the message?

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

Why do you continue attacking messengers instead of commenting on the message?

 

V

[Sunya]

 

Isn't Osho the guy who had like 90 Rolls Royces, started a cult in Oregon, and was subsequently deported from the US for fraud? I think knowing about the messenger is important. Even a parrot can say something meaningful once in a while, but doesn't mean that he's worth listening to.

[Sunya]

[Vajrahridaya]

You seem very intelligent, but you're very off the mark about a lot of things, and some of your ideas sound paranoid. No offense, but have you/do you do drugs?

[Vmarco]

Isn't Osho the guy who had like 90 Rolls Royces, started a cult in Oregon, and was subsequently deported from the US for fraud? I think knowing about the messenger is important. Even a parrot can say something meaningful once in a while, but doesn't mean that he's worth listening to.

 

Does that have anything to do with what was said in the video? If you think that a message depends on your predisposition and judgment of the messenger, is not your being here (on this planet) frankly useless?

 

I must agree, that to such a judgmental fellow, my posts, would indeed be a threat.

 

As for your insult regarding my personal habits,...no drugs, no ciggies, no religion.

 

For me,...."it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti

 

Isn't there a Tea Party website where you would fit in better? I'm mean, your "location", the oxymoron "here and now" points to someone quite ignorant (as in the Buddha definition),...wouldn't you agree?

 

V

Edited August 7, 2011 by Vmarco

[Vajrahridaya]

Does that have anything to do with what was said in the video? If you think that a message depends on your predisposition and judgment of the messenger, is not your being here (on this planet) frankly useless?

 

I must agree, that to such a judgmental fellow, my posts, would indeed be a threat.

 

As for your insult regarding my personal habits,...no drugs, no ciggies, no religion.

 

For me,...."it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti

 

Isn't there a Tea Party website where you would fit in better? I'm mean, your "location", the oxymoron "here and now" points to someone quite ignorant (as in the Buddha definition),...wouldn't you agree?

 

V

 

Would a great being come in here pigeon holing?

[Sunya]

If you think that a message depends on your predisposition and judgment of the messenger, is not your being here (on this planet) frankly useless?

 

Wow, so my being here on the planet is useless because I'm careful who I listen to Why don't you quote Bin Laden on peace while you're at it?

 

 

Isn't there a Tea Party website where you would fit in better? I'm mean, your "location", the oxymoron "here and now" points to someone quite ignorant (as in the Buddha definition),...wouldn't you agree?

 

V

 

Hmmm, I asked if you do drugs and you fit me in with a political movement that is for small government? Ok... you're kind of wacky, man. And no, being here and now is quite fine from a Buddhist pov.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Sunya

[Vmarco]

 

Hmmm, I asked if you do drugs and you fit me in with a political movement that is for small government? Ok... you're kind of wacky, man. And no, being here and now is quite fine from a Buddhist pov.

 

As I guessed, the analogy with Tea Party was totally correct. Since the Tea Party ascended to power, socially consevative government intrusions are up over 300%,...especially laws regulating public and private abortion, LGBT Rights, Union Rights, Freethinker Rights, new voter restrictions in more than 40 States, and a lessening of Freedom from Religion. Although the Tea Party fronts themselves as "small government", their actions show them to be anti-American obstructionists with a Christian Fascist agenda. Thus, I get the last LOL.

 

And no,...."here and now" is not Buddhism. To be 'here' in the skandhas, is dependent on the illusion of a 'there'. There is no 'here' in the Now. Perhaps you need a lesson regarding Dependent Origination from someone other than Vajrahridaya. No matter how much you desire to do so, you cannot bring your conditions into the Unconditional.

 

As for me, this thread appears to have lost the seriousness and openness to make it worthwhile. So, I wish you all the wishes you wish for.

 

V

Edited August 7, 2011 by Vmarco

[ralis]

I would like to add, that there is a double standard when it comes to Buddhist teachers as opposed to who are deemed outsiders. Outsiders such as Osho are called fools by Vajraji et al, based how many cars he was given and that has something to do with the wisdom he imparted? Why would anyone of intelligence believe that? Moreover, confuse the two separate issues?

 

When Trungpa is quoted, his abuses and alcoholism are not mentioned by Vajraji et al, as if his behavior is beyond reproach in their view? Does that have everything to do with how lineage and religious advocates view others outside of their own social group, in this case lineages? Yes!

Edited August 7, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I would like to add, that there is a double standard when it comes to Buddhist teachers as opposed to who are deemed outsiders. Outsiders such as Osho are called fools by Vajraji et al, based how many cars he was given and that has something to do with the wisdom he imparted? Why would anyone of intelligence believe that? Moreover, confuse the two separate issues?

 

When Trungpa is quoted, his abuses and alcoholism are not mentioned by Vajraji et al, as if his behavior is beyond reproach in their view? Does that have everything to do with how lineage and religious advocates view others outside of their own social group, in this case lineages? Yes!

 

You are putting perspectives into other peoples eyes that do not exist outside of assumption.

 

"Vajraji et all." Seriously? We all think the same? We're all just ignorant sheep to you and your profound powers of individual thinking?

 

Anyway...

 

I know former disciples of Osho, and he was kicked out of the US for embezzlement. My opinion is based upon a number of sources that knew him.

 

Also, when have I ever quoted Trungpa? Please... I'd like to know. I don't think every Vajrayana Buddhist is beyond criticism. None the less, Trungpa did lots of good!

Edited August 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

And no,...."here and now" is not Buddhism. To be 'here' in the skandhas, is dependent on the illusion of a 'there'. There is no 'here' in the Now. Perhaps you need a lesson regarding Dependent Origination from someone other than Vajrahridaya. No matter how much you desire to do so, you cannot bring your conditions into the Unconditional.

 

The conditional is already unconditioned by the very fact of being empty and dependently originated. Your thinking seems pretty dualistic to me.

[ralis]

You are putting perspectives into other peoples eyes that do not exist outside of assumption.

 

"Vajraji et all." Seriously? We all think the same? We're all just ignorant sheep to you and your profound powers of individual thinking?

 

Anyway...

 

I know former disciples of Osho, and he was kicked out of the US for embezzlement. My opinion is based upon a number of sources that knew him.

 

Also, when have I ever quoted Trungpa? Please... I'd like to know. I don't think every Vajrayana Buddhist is beyond criticism. None the less, Trungpa did lots of good!

 

 

What Osho did is separate from the wisdom he imparted. Won't you acknowledge that? Vmarco quoted Trungpa and I never said you quoted Trungpa or implied that you quoted him. Your need to self reference when a part of what I posted is not directed at you, is amazing.

 

My point is, that anyone with common sense and intelligence should give credit to whomever imparts wisdom and not engage in ad hominem attacks. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. That happens far too often on this forum!

 

What is incorrect in your point of view about individual thinking? Should I engage in politically or spiritual correct thinking according to rules proclaimed by religions and lineages? No Way!

Edited August 7, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

What Osho did is separate from the wisdom he imparted. Won't you acknowledge that? Vmarco quoted Trungpa and I never said you quoted Trungpa or implied that you quoted him. Your need to self reference when a part of what I posted is not directed at you, is amazing.

 

 

Um, you said "Vajraji et all." No, what I said was not amazing. I find your grouping of individuals together pretty amazing.

 

My point is, that anyone with common sense and intelligence should give credit to whomever imparts wisdom and not engage in ad hominem attacks. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. That happens far too often on this forum!

 

Actually, in spirituality, a persons wisdom is defined by their life. So, what others think may be wise words out of Osho's mouth is merely intellectual musings. Of which he was pretty good at, but he didn't have direct insight into nature, thus I don't consider him truly wise and I don't find him quotable.

 

People can be free to quote him, but it's not going to make me see their point any better if the point they are using the quote to prove has been deemed erroneous by me, from within myself to begin with. As, I used to have plenty of the same views that I deny on here.

 

What is incorrect in your point of view about individual thinking? Should I engage in politically or spiritual correct thinking according to rules proclaimed by religions and lineages? No Way!

 

That's not what I said. You just pride yourself it seems to me, as if you independently existed and your views arose due to themselves. Being part of a lineage doesn't mean one is giving up individuality, one is merely understanding the truth that we are influenced by what we associate with. So, associating with enlightened lineage while in the body, even if you think you've attained such a high state of realization is most advisable, even by the Buddha.

 

He's stated that having spiritual friends is tantamount with the entirety of the path.

 

Anyway... project on!

[LBDaoist]

I have been very fortunate to have trained under the teachers that I have. Now that my teacher has past away it is very hard to find a teacher with her caliber of teaching. Some of the students feel that they are the next Grand Master just because they are the eldest student.

 

The continuation of any lineage has been a sticky subject going back centuries. So many of the ancient teachers expressed concern about deviant paths and deviation from the way as students vied for position. Thomas Cleary has done a lot of translations of old texts, and the first two volumes of his collection "The Classics of Buddhism and Zen" contain many thoughts from old teachers about lineage. I found them to be prescient.

[Seth Ananda]

What Osho did is separate from the wisdom he imparted. Won't you acknowledge that? Vmarco quoted Trungpa and I never said you quoted Trungpa or implied that you quoted him. Your need to self reference when a part of what I posted is not directed at you, is amazing.

 

My point is, that anyone with common sense and intelligence should give credit to whomever imparts wisdom and not engage in ad hominem attacks. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. That happens far too often on this forum!

 

What is incorrect in your point of view about individual thinking? Should I engage in politically or spiritual correct thinking according to rules proclaimed by religions and lineages? No Way!

Hmm Osho is a personal Button for me.

 

I think he did some great things, like bringing a more celebratory atmosphere to stuffy spiritual groups, and telling people they need to work on their shit as well as on their spiritual development, but...

 

Spiking the punch with MDMA so everyone was getting blissed out on the Guru's 'energy' lol.

Talking really slowly to sound in the moment when really he was just off his face on valium, which he was severely addicted to.

 

He claimed to be a Tantric Master, yet had no training, and very little understanding of Tantric processes. He was virtually impotent, and could only really get off on voyeurism. To try to appear to be a Tantric Authority, he worte a Translation of the Vijnana Bhairava, a core tantric text which outlines 112 meditation techniques, and it is the worst translation ever, having almost nothing to do with the origional text [which I have read many times] He tries to make the text be primarily about Sex Orgasm and Death.

 

In fact he is solely responsible for Tantra in the west being 'all about Sex' with none of the beauty and Spiritual depth.

 

I tend to think the bad from him far out weighs the Good. His Ideas have infiltrated the modern spiritual world in many many ways.

 

Now please note I have lived on Osho Sanyassin comunities and been friends with many Sanyassins over the years, and much of my Info is first hand descriptions of life with the fraud, and all I really see as coming out of his teachings are deeply Narcissistic people, who meditate a lot, think about themselves alot, are constantly looking for ways to have more Catharsis, to process anything from their circumsision trauma to their trauma of being alive or the collective unconscious trauma of...

The spiritual justifications that they have access to, from Osho, are Immense and they use them to justify the most heinous acts of theft and backstabbing, drug dealing, and just plain old dishonourable behaviour.

 

The older Sanyassins are so often in Real estate and are shrewd buisness people. He actively told people to buy property and set themselves up. Maybe that is just my Issue but I could never feel quite right about making money from real estate...

 

In poona, they hired Gangs of thugs to clear out the neighbour slums, so they could expand their estate.

 

Any way, in all his stuff I find elements of good, but its nearly always tainted with subtle negative elements.

 

I do not think he had much Wisdom.

But he was very very clever. He knew what people wanted, and he knew if he dressed that in spiritual clothing, that people would give him the world.