The Microcosmic Orbit

[rideforever]

6 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Oh gawd, I hate talking to brick walls ... and repeating myself.  

 

I have read some of your length posts on this subject so I understand a bit better what you mean.

If somebody does moving chi kung or tai chi ... how is that different to MCO, how does that cultivate you in a way that is natural ?

Edited July 17, 2018 by rideforever

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

I have read some of your length posts on this subject so I understand a bit better what you mean.

 

So after reading those do you think doing the MCO is still OK?  Where have I gone wrong?  

 

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

If somebody does moving chi kung or tai chi ... how is that different to MCO, how does that cultivate you in a way that is natural ?

 

OK, give it some time.

[Starjumper]

14 hours ago, Aetherous said:

   14 hours ago,  Starjumper said: 

 It will not increase chi power, ever.

Yes it can.

 

Doing the MCO as a stand alone practice?  In some few rare cases it may change a person's power from super wimpy to just plain real wimpy, anyone who thinks it does more than that simply has not experienced what is possible and are playing mind games ... I mean other mind games in addition to the MCO mind game.   In fact it will prevent progress along the path of true chi power and super health cultivation, and enlightenment, and spiritual growth, and everything else worth a damn.

 

14 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

  30 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 It will cause permanent problems.

Yes it can.

 

Yes it causes health problems, incurable ones, in some people; and the longer they do it the more likely these prblems are to manifest.  However I would like to put forth the proposition that even if a person has a strong constitution that doing it will cause other problems which are not visible or not evident until they try to do some real nei kung.  No progress can be made in real nei kung or in the path of power until the internal unseen damage cause by focussing on the MCO has been repaired or negated and reversed, and that could be a very long time, or never, depending on how long the person has done the MCO, which is even assuming a person wants to erase those problems or becomes aware of them.  It's more likely that those who are attracted to such stupid fundamentalist practices will never try to go further along the path of power, so it's fine.

 

There, I did put forth that proposition.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Starjumper

[rideforever]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

Well ... my main path is meditation so Qigong is auxiliary for me personally.   The way I was taught the "MCO" is that the purpose of this river is to fill the other channels, as well as providing a basic route home for energy so that anything that is cultivated can drain out, and also something about syncrhonising with the rotation of the solar system every 72,000 years.

 

I do Winn's 5 Animals + MCO + Macro-cosmic one after the other in the morning.   In the afternoon I do BKF's Heaven and Earth and Gods Playing the Clouds.

 

Okay, so I am not doing MCO in order to make a deep groove in one channel, and I added in the macro cosmic in order to ensure that I am not missing out bits.

 

Doesn't every practice cultivate energy in a particular way, it's a choice ... so you could say every practice is specializing your energy and not allowing it to flow smoothly.   

 

In Taoist terms my meditation teacher teaches that to reach the goal of the Taoist path you need to merge with absolute source of energy by descending from your dantien; and that many qigong practices aim at creating a brand new body of energy at the dantien there filled with cosmic energy, rather than accepting entering surrender to what is already there.   So following qigong paths is something different to taoism.   Also the Indian mystics, many of them simply sat and reached fulfilment.  UG Krishnamurti reached the goal of Taoism as well although is Indian..   Winn said that he was not satisfied with the Indian approach because he did not feel the awakening was stable without an energy body .... but I know that this is not necessarily the case.  Winn is exploratory which is great quality.

 

I have not gone very far into the Mantak Chia / Michael Winn path because it is too concerned with swirly purple energy from the big dipper etc... and the course of my life is more about conscience / peace / understanding.   Chia often talks about how "clever" he is.  Winn has a courageous spirit and is experimental like me.   BKF comes from the family of Christian church leaders and is in that mould, anyway he is a little unimaginative for me, but he is right that water need priority over fire and I appreciate his respect for tradition.

Anyway, those are my 7 cents.  I would be interested to hear you talk about how moving qigong practices work : I suppose they are far more subtle then breathing green chi up the liver channel for instance.

[Starjumper]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I do Winn's 5 Animals + MCO + Macro-cosmic one after the other in the morning.   In the afternoon I do BKF's Heaven and Earth and Gods Playing the Clouds.

 

It is good that you are doing more than just one thing.  I'm not familiar with the practices named, the five animals or Heaven and Earth, or Gods Playing Clouds; are they moving methods or are they sitting and visualizing?

 

Also a personal question if you don't mind, do you have a desk job or sedentary job?  Do you do much in the way of active sports or exercise?

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Doing the MCO as a stand alone practice? 

 

Yes, there are mind only MCO methods that can cultivate lots of qi.

[bamboo]

@Rideforever

 

The Mco is for refining qi you have accumulated, it is not for building qi. The admonition in most of the classic texts is, "trying to run the mco without qi is like putting a pot on fire without any water in it...you ruin/burnout the pot." I'm paraphrasing but hopefully you get the idea.

 

No water in the boiler, no steam in the pipes 😎

 

Best,

Liam

Edited July 17, 2018 by bamboo

[rideforever]

25 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Hi.  Yes all those practices are standing moving qigongs.   For instance 5 animals : wood element : you scoop up the universal wood element from nature and bring it into your personal wood element and the body moves in an upward spiralling branches movement, trying to feel the energy, some visualisatino of colour and healing sounds are used at the beginning to lead you to feel the universal force.   Heaven and Earth is a vertical movement which uses expansion contraction of the body with no visualisation at all.
Once a week I do pilates / abs / arms / legs functional explosive movements and try to keep myself in ok shape.   But yes I have a desk job, nevertheless I do qigong twice a day.   Also cycle everywhere no car.

[Phoenix3]

Hey everyone,

 

Is the microcosmic orbit just the rotation of jing? Or does it also include the movement of qi and/or shen? 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

Is the microcosmic orbit just the rotation of jing? Or does it also include the movement of qi and/or shen? 

 

Jing is vitality, it doesn't rotate, shen is an attitude, it doesn't rotate either.  

[dawei]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:01 AM, 26sol said:

hi,is it ok to do MCO using locks?(root lock in particular)

 

To get the greatest or most efficient effect, you should.   On inhale, in either normal or reversed, the perineum should tuck upwards, and on exhale relax downward.    Breath, stomach, perineum and diaphragm should all work together. 

[Starjumper]

On 7/17/2018 at 10:34 AM, rideforever said:

Hi.  Yes all those practices are standing moving qigongs.   For instance 5 animals : wood element : you scoop up the universal wood element from nature and bring it into your personal wood element and the body moves in an upward spiralling branches movement, trying to feel the energy, some visualisatino of colour and healing sounds are used at the beginning to lead you to feel the universal force.   Heaven and Earth is a vertical movement which uses expansion contraction of the body with no visualisation at all.
Once a week I do pilates / abs / arms / legs functional explosive movements and try to keep myself in ok shape.   But yes I have a desk job, nevertheless I do qigong twice a day.   Also cycle everywhere no car.

 

There is an answer to this question in a new thread.  I asked to split off a new thread in order to prevent more thread drift and off topic posting:

 

 

[freeform]

Hmm I think it’s important enough to comment on this thread.

 

Although a bit brash, I agree with much of what starjumper says. With a few differences.

 

Doing MCO with the mind will create a mental (illusory) mco. It won’t creat a real circulation of qi - but tracing your attention along that path will certainly create sensations from your nervous system. For example if you concentrated on your little finger for hours on end, you’d have mind blowing pulsations, heat vibrations etc... this is just your nervous system.

 

Using visualisation or even just focused intention or awareness is contradictory to the mechanics of how the internal arts work. It’s as simple as that. 

 

I don’t agree with starjumper that you’ll irreparably damage yourself with mental mco practices. Unless you start doing weird breathing techniques or ‘locks’. It will create bad habits though - and put you onto the wrong path - so it will take some time to get back to zero before moving onto actual qigong. But it won’t do much except waste time.

 

qigong and neigong is a system. Just like how the water cycle in nature is a system. There’s a specific path of progression where one thing builds on another. Just picking the mco is like deciding that the rain part of the water cycle is the most important - without even having the clouds in place to create the water needed for rain.

 

People online really hate this, but you need a teacher and a real system to make even the tiniest bit of progress on this path. It’s so easy to kid yourself with books and ideas and videos. You can’t learn from books or online training or videos it’s just not possible.

 

These arts are really intricate - they’re not just a collection of techniques. There’s a path of progression that a teacher will have gone through (if they’re a real teacher) and will recognise where you are and what you need in your training to progress.

 

You know when you see those talented pianists on tv - effortlessly creating amazing music and all kinds of feelings in you? Well what you’re seeing is them at a certain level of progress - what leads up to that is constant regular practice with feedback from a teacher. A pianist didn’t learn how to play from a book. Or a video course. Or even learn one melody and repeat it over and over expecting to become a master pianist. No - it’s an intricate progression of skills being built into their body and mind - with a teacher (or even many teachers) telling them where they go wrong and what to work on etc.

 

Well the piano is one thing - the Taoist arts are far more intricate - you’ll be working with the fundamental building blocks of reality (eventually). There are no magic techniques (just like there’s no magic melody). It’s a progressive training of body and mind.

 

Some other myths. 

 

It’s not ‘natural’. Although you’re working with natural processes, cultivation is not ‘natural’ in just the same way that playing the piano is not natural. Lao Tzu talks about being natural, and people get tripped up on this and think he’s just saying go with the flow. That’s not it. It takes a certain level of achievement to understand what Lao Tzu is talking about just as it takes a certain level of achievement for the pianist to not only read the notes on a sheet in front of him but understand how it applies to creating the music with his piano.

 

You don’t already have it. “It’s in you already and all you need is to uncover it”. That’s not right. Ok the pianist analogy is getting old, but let’s stick with it. The pianist has feelings and a desire to express - but she doesn’t already have the skill to create music with the piano. She has to spend decades learning and embodying the skill to be able to express feelings and emotions through music. This is new age advice rooted in Christian beliefs.

 

I’m saying all this not to be critical or to make you feel bad. I know there are people who’ll be determined to learn from a book because they are the special exception to the rule. But it’s like seeing those terrible singers in competitions on x-factor and the like - they truly believe that they have an amazing talent, whereas in reality they sound awful and they’re just wasting their time and energy.

 

If there’s no good teacher near you, then spend your time getting strong and flexible with exercise (not heavy weights though!) and stretching. Spend all the rest of your time on making more money so you can afford to travel and train with a proper teacher.

 

Yes it takes time, commitment, dedication, patience and compromise. This path is not for everyone. Be real with yourself. Just because you find this stuff interesting or you like the sound of all the benefits doesn’t mean this lifestyle is for you. And there’s nothing wrong with that! You can lead an amazing life without doing any cultivation!

 

We really need some honesty in these arts.

 

It’s hard! The training is hard. It feels really uncomfortable when you’re training correctly. It doesn’t feel all lovely and floaty. If it does then you’re just coasting and not progressing. Most musicians will also tell you that they hate practice. It’s uncomfortable, challenging and boring. It’s the same with cultivation. 

 

You'll probably never achieve enlightenment or even get close. I’m sorry but that’s just the case. 

 

So it takes it takes a weird sort of person to follow this path! Very few people are suited to it. You do it for the deep love of the art - not for the benefits, not for the achievements or cool ‘superpowers’. You do it because that’s just what you do. You need to actually enjoy endlessly repeating challenging movements with full awareness and attention, trying to grasp and embody quite subtle and difficult principles.

 

If you’re the type to get easily bored, then this is definitely not for you! The reality of the matter is that 80% of the time it’s difficult, uncomfortable, sweat inducing and frustrating repetitive practice.

 

If you’re a weird, slightly flawed individual that actually enjoys all this, then yes - the cultivators lifestyle is for you. For the rest - hey just enjoy yourselves! There’s so much to enjoy in life! This stuff won’t ‘fix you’ in the way that you think it will - so just enjoy life with lightness and humility. That’s just as noble a path as any!

[Vajra Fist]

In Spring Forest, MCO is one of the first things you do. However it is a guided recording aided by the Master's energy. 

 

Would you also say that it is dangerous?

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

In Spring Forest, MCO is one of the first things you do. However it is a guided recording aided by the Master's energy. 

 

Would you also say that it is dangerous?

 

First red flag is that it’s a recording...

 

If you’re listening to a recorded voice, you’re not able to fully listen inside... And the skill of listening (Ting) is one of the two primary skills within the internal arts. The other is releasing (Song).

 

Following instructions is fine in the beginning to learn the method - but needs to be let go of as soon as possible. 

 

What are the instructions? Are you imagining things or moving your attention along the mco pathway? Is there a breathing method?

 

My guess is that it’s not dangerous, but neither is it effective. I can’t comment on Spring Forest as a whole - so it may well be a legitimate system (although starting with mco before anything else is highly unusual).

 

In most systems mco opens initially as a byproduct of other training. Normally takes about 3 years of consistent training (as in for longer than 2hrs every day). Then there are layers upon layers of deeper openings. There are specific physical signs in your body when the mco is actually open.

 

I’d suggest for you to go and meet the master in person and learn the methods directly. 

 

Although it may say that the masters energy is guiding you, I’d be extremely skeptical of that. If you’re not creating puddles of sweat on the floor, feeling waves of pressure, strong jolts of ‘electricity’ or physical vibration and heat in your body then you’re not getting a transmission. When authentic, this stuff is not subtle (especially in the beginning when your channels aren’t open). 

[Vajra Fist]

When you breathe in you visualise energy entering certain points around the orbit and when you breathe out you visualise energy moving to the next point. All the while the recording has the master saying 'om' and 'mo' respectively when the energy radiates at certain spots. 

 

I definitely feel very peaceful and harmonious after practicing and you guys saying it is unsafe is news to me. Chunyi Lin has impeccable credentials as a master and the system is widely regarded as both effective and safe. 

 

But then its been a while since I posted here, and I forget how energy practices (compared to Buddhist practices) are fraught with uncertainty over provenance and safety.

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

When you breathe in you visualise energy entering certain points around the orbit ...

 

Ok - don’t worry that’s not dangerous at all.

 

It won’t do any harm - nor will it move any energy. It’s good that it makes you feel relaxed and harmonious. 

 

Years ago I used to to do lots of visualisations, guided meditations etc. Nothing wrong in enjoying that - certainly beats watching tv!

 

It’s just important that you understand that that’s not qigong - you’re not cultivating. You’re de-stressing. Which is all most people really need!

[Vajra Fist]

Yes well, I'm an ordained Buddhist and that is my main focus.

 

I've come back tentatively to qigong, as more a means of maintaining wellness and vitality. I don't fool myself into thinking I'm doing deep internal alchemy. Nor do I think such a thing is possible without a teacher. The taoist path is a very narrow one, and very few are able to make it. 

 

But I'm reassured somewhat in that what I am practicing is neither harmful nor too high level. Which suits me, as it is not my primary focus.

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Vajra Fist

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

I can’t comment on Spring Forest as a whole - so it may well be a legitimate system

People love to call things "systems." haha.

Like "ecosystem" - one of the most abused words in the English language.

Quote

Every system is delineated by its spatial and temporal boundaries,

Really? Is Spring Forest Qigong a "system"? I don't think so. haha.

It could be an illegitimate "system" and that would be great - wouldn't it?

[freeform]

13 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Yes well, I'm an ordained Buddhist and that is my main focus.

 

I've come back tentatively to qigong, as more a means of maintaining wellness and vitality.

 

 

Well that’s great. In fact there are a lot of Taoist sects that are heavily influenced by Buddhism. 

 

I think your best bet would be to do the movement exercises that Chunyi Lin teaches. That and some physical exercise would do wonders for health and vitality.

 

Give the mco recordings a miss and use that time for your Buddhist practices - you’ll get more from that.

[freeform]

5 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

People love to call things "systems." haha.

 

Ok - I’m a bit confused. So you’re saying Spring Forest is a ‘thing’ not a ‘system’?

 

Or are you just offended that I’m not wholeheartedly praising Spring Forest?

 

If it’s the latter, then please excuse me. I don’t mean to offend anyone. I’ve not met Chunyi Lin, and so cannot comment on his system... or thing...(!?) 

 

As to his videos and recordings... I have no objection to that. I've met several teachers with genuine skill that have created online courses or videos as a source of income - knowing full well that it won’t result in any real development. But it’s certainly better use of time than watching tv or some other trivial activity. And it may well encourage that person to seek out a teacher. It’s a tricky life to spend your full time on training - and some income from videos is extremely helpful. I completely get that.

 

I do think it’s important for people to know that for anything beyond the very basics you need to work with a teacher directly. There’s no other way round it. Even these basics will need to be re-trained. 

 

I’ve personally wasted years on books and dvds. Then many more years on finding the right teachers. And I don’t want others to have their time wasted this way. These arts are very precious and shouldn’t be diluted by people learning things from videos and thinking they’ve got it!

 

[Joolian]

18 hours ago, freeform said:

In most systems mco opens initially as a byproduct of other training. Normally takes about 3 years of consistent training (as in for longer than 2hrs every day). Then there are layers upon layers of deeper openings. There are specific physical signs in your body when the mco is actually open.

 

Thanks. Could you please elaborate on that, for example what the specific physical signs would be?

 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Joolian said:

 

Thanks. Could you please elaborate on that, for example what the specific physical signs would be?

 

 

I’m sorry Joolian - I’ve been asked not reveal that and I’m going to respect that request.

 

But my main point is that it’s a physical change in your body - you can see it or feel it when palpating. There’s no ambiguity - it’s there or not yet.

[Joolian]

Thank you, no worries - I respect that. I am still not there yet but was curious about the signs... I have heard that one could see it in the face and eyes, but don't know.

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Joolian said:

Thank you, no worries - I respect that. I am still not there yet but was curious about the signs... I have heard that one could see it in the face and eyes, but don't know.

 

I think different lineages have different ways of testing these things. There’s different signs for the front channel and the back. And I expect there are a number of physical changes that happen according to the degree of openness. 

 

I remember I found it quite shocking that the Dan Tien is a physical thing that you can feel and touch! These days I’m not shocked so easily  Qi gong is more like bodybuilding than I first imagined!