[TTC Study] Chapter 57 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 57

 

 

John Wu

 

You govern a kingdom by normal rules;

You fight a war by exceptional moves;

But you win the world by letting alone.

How do I know that this is so?

By what is within me!

The more taboos and inhibitions there are in the world,

The poorer the people become.

The sharper the weapons the people possess,

The greater confusion reigns in the realm.

The more clever and crafty the men,

The oftener strange things happen.

The more articulate the laws and ordinances,

The more robbers and thieves arise.

Therefore, the Sage says:

I do not make any fuss, and the people transform themselves.

I love quietude, and the people settle down in their regular grooves.

I do not engage myself in anything, and the people grow rich.

I have no desires, and the people return to

Simplicity.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Rule a nation with justice.

Wage war with surprise moves.

Become master of the universe without striving.

How do I know that this is so?

Because of this!

The more laws and restrictions there are,

The poorer people become.

The sharper men's weapons,

The more trouble in the land.

The more ingenious and clever men are,

The more strange things happen.

The more rules and regulations,

The more thieves and robbers.

Therefore the sage says:

I take no action and people are reformed.

I enjoy peace and people become honest.

I do nothing and people become rich.

I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Use the upright and correct to order the state;

Use surprise tactics when you use troops;

Use unconcern with affairs to take control of the world.

How do I know that this is so?

Well, the more taboos and prohibitions there are in the world, the poorer the people will be;

The more sharp weapons the people possess, the more muddled the states will be;

The more knowledge and skill people have, the more novel things will appear;

The more legal matters are made prominent, the more robbers and thieves there will be.

Therefore, the words of the Sage say:

I do nothing, and the people of themselves are transformed;

I love tranquility, and the people of themselves are upright;

I'm unconcerned with affairs, and the people of themselves become rich.

I desire not to desire, and the people of themselves are [genuine and simple, like] uncarved wood.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[dawei]

I thought it would be interesting to contrast three scholarly translators with three taoist masters:

 

CHAPTER 57

 

Flowing Hands

When ruling a nation, use as little force as necessary and leave people

to follow their own path.

In this way you become the ruler of the Universe by not striving.

How do I know this?

Because the more laws and restrictions,

the poorer the poor become and wealthier the rich get.

Men take to sharpening their swords.

People become cunning and ingenious and more trouble

is seen in the land.

The more rules and regulations made will only cause robbers and thieves to appear.

And people will feel bitterness, and rebellion in their hearts.

Therefore the Sage goes about doing nothing and people are left free.

He enjoys peace and tranquillity and people become simple and honest.

He returns to the fullness of the Dao, and so people become

full and contented.

He is unattached and open and so people return to

a good and simple life.

 

Hua-Ching Ni

 

When serving the public, use upright means.

When commanding troops in war, employ the principle of surprise.

To win the world, do nothing to interfere with it.

Why?

Because the more prohibitions and inhibitions that are imposed on people,

the more difficult their lives become.

The more destructive weapons a nation or its people possess,

the poorer the people of that country become,

and the greater is the chaos that occurs in the world.

The more clever and crafty people become,

the more often strange things happen.

The more laws and ordinances there are,

the more criminals and dissidents will arise.

Therefore, the ancient sages of natural virtue said:

"I do nothing, and people's contention dissolves by itself.

I enjoy serenity, and people rectify themselves.

I make no effort, and people enrich themselves.

I have no desire, and people return to simplicity."

 

Waysun Liao

 

Rule a nation with normal justice and wage war with unusual tactics.

Practice non-action to govern the world.

How do I know this is so? Because of the following mistakes:

The more taboos for people there are, the poorer are the people.

When men have more sharpened weapons, there is more chaos in the country.

The more men rely on cleverness and ingenuity; the more novelties abound.

When rules and regulations grow, there are more thieves and robbers.

Therefore the saint says: "I apply the power of non-action and the people are orderly.

I am in stillness and the people become honest. I am at peace and the people prosper.

I have no desires and the people return to lives of simplicity and goodness."

[Sifu Roy]

When I was introduced to the Tao Te Ching I must have read that thing about 100 times, My teacher told me to apply every chapter to 10,000 thing so, I applied each chapter to meditation, replaced the word Tao with Chi and used as much as I can to sparring tactics. Reading this chapter brings back allot of memories, good ones. Matter a fact, I don't recall to have any bad feeling come out in any of the chapters all good ones. Teach people right principals and the people will govern themselves.

[Marblehead]

I think that it is from this chapter that the acronym "KISS" came from:

 

K - Keep

I - It

S - Simple

S - Stupid

 

Actually I had to change the way I say this. For me it has become: Keep It Simple Sweetie.

[lienshan]

Chapter 57

 

English/Feng

 

I do nothing and people become rich.

Please .................. do nothing

[Marblehead]

Please .................. do nothing

 

I so wish I could afford that pleasure to all my friends.

 

But remember, all you really need is "enough".

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 57

1. Use basic principles to rule a country.

2. Use tactics to run an army.

3. Use non-violence to take over the world(China).

4. How do I know this can be done...???

5. From the list below.

 

 

57

1. 以正治國，

2. 以奇用兵，

3. 以無事取天下。

4. 吾何以知其然哉﹖

5. 以此。

 

To be continued....

Dinner time with tea....

Edited August 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Chapter 57

 

3. Use non-violence to take over the world.

 

To be continued....

Dinner time with tea....

 

My question has always been, "Why would a Taoist want to take over the world?"

[Apech]

Chapter 57

1. Use basic principles to rule a country.

2. Use tactics to run a arm force.

3. Use non-violence to take over the world.

4. How do I know this can be done...???

5. From the list below.

 

 

57

1. 以正治國，

2. 以奇用兵，

3. 以無事取天下。

4. 吾何以知其然哉﹖

5. 以此。

 

To be continued....

Dinner time with tea....

 

No. 2 ... an armed force ... ... BUT army would be simpler I think.

[ChiDragon]

My question has always been, "Why would a Taoist want to take over the world?"

It was not a Taoist wants to take over the world. I thought you understood that the Tao Te Ching was about rulers.

 

I think I had mentioned this before, Tian xia(天下) means China in the ancient time.

Tian xia(天下): Under heaven; the world; China

 

3. 以無事取天下。

3. Use non-violence to take over China.

 

Line 3 was referring to anybody whoever wants to run China.

 

Note:

The ancient Chinese only known to them that China was the whole wide world. So when they say under heaven(天下), actually, they meant China.

Edited August 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well, I sure did get you to expand on this, didn't I? Hehehe.

 

Thanks for taking the time to look deeper into the words for others to gain a better understanding.

[dawei]

I agree that it is in reference to rulers.

 

Line one has 'state' in the two oldest manuscripts so I tend to prefer that usage instead of nation or country; it is the Warring States Period.

 

I have previously stated my opinion [in another thread] that Tian Xia is also a code for 'unification'. There is a long history to unification and the Zhou wanted it as well but they lost their chance and it was a States struggle which ended with Qin.

 

But due to the timing of this writing, I don't see line three as suggesting to master or govern or win Tian Xi; it means to acquire [a unification].

 

In the Warring State Period is the philosophical "School of Song Xing and Yin Wen" which espoused Daoism and wu wei (but was more from a Huang-Lao perspective; Zhuangzi mentions Song Xing). In quoting this chapter, the Yin Wen Zi went on to say 'obtain' Tian Xia (得天下). I think this is the way to understand line 3. To acquire or obtain unification of all of the States.

[ChiDragon]

I think this is the way to understand line 3. To acquire or obtain unification of all of the States.

dawei...

You are 100% correct. One person unified six states, so tian xia was under one ruler. However, the unification was only a process to unite the six states; but the final result was taken over the whole China.

 

Line 3 was only a general statement for one to take over tian xia, China or the six states. Whatever you want to call it; it was just saying taken over a piece of land. Indeed, it did not specify why it was taken over the land but just taken over.

 

Besides, 取天下(taken over Tian Xia) is different from 得天下(gained Tian Xia).

 

得天下(gained Tian Xia) literally means that one benevolent state was jointed be other states in a peaceful manner. Also, it could have the meaning of winning the hearts of all the people.

Edited August 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 57

1. Use basic principles to rule a country.

2. Use tactics to run a warfare.

3. Use non-violence to take over the world(China).

4. How do I know this can be done...???

5. From the list below.

 

6. To run a country, the more restrictions, the poorer the people.

7. People with more sharp instruments, the country is more chaotic.

8. People with more dexterity, crimes are occurring more often.

9. The more regulations, the number of thieves and robbers is continuously risen.

10. Therefore, a virtuous ruler says.

11. I'm being Wu Wei, then the people will be self developed.

12. I'm being silent, then the people will be on the track.

13. I'm not being interfering, then the people will be rich.

14. I'm not being covetous, then the people will be guileless.

 

57

1. 以正治國，

2. 以奇用兵，

3. 以無事取天下。

4. 吾何以知其然哉﹖

5. 以此。

6. 天下多忌諱而民彌貧。

7. 民多利器國家滋昏。

8. 人多伎巧奇物泫起。

9. 法令滋彰盜賊多有。

10.故聖人云

11.我無為而民自化。

12.我好靜而民自正。

13.我無事而民自富。

14.我無欲而民自樸。

Edited August 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Line 3 was only a general statement for one to take over tian xia, China or the six states. Whatever you want to call it; it was just saying taken over a piece of land. Indeed, it did not specify why it was taken over the land but just taken over.

This is where we agree to disagree...

 

it is only general as to the vision of unification. "Take over" through 'wu wei' is a bit incongruous in english usage, at least IMO; as well, it is anachronistic to put such a feeling to the time period of this writing. To 'take over' is more imminent when a real end is in sight.

 

But the land was not unified until almost 200-400 years later. IMO, the writing is definitely prior to 350 BC since Qin was not even powerful prior to that. Chu, where Laozi was from, was one of the strongest states. Jin split in 475 BC and so the "power of seven" was shortly dominating thereafter. So the number of states was probably higher at the earliest writings with no real, imaginable end in sight; it took hundreds of years to realize. Chapter 46 mentions horses in peace and in battle; so I think this was a time prior to the full-blown struggle of seven. Even Confucius lived several hundred years prior to the unification. So another reason I don't subscribe to the idea that it is "land just taken over".

Edited August 4, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I think you are adding too much into line 3. There is no Wu Wei involvement here.

[dawei]

I think you are adding too much into line 3. There is no Wu Wei involvement here.

Ah, that's the problem I have argued to a few here . If you get caught up in ONE line, you miss the bigger point... ergo, I am NOT only looking at one line but the entire chapter, and book and time period. You of all people should see this, but I'll use your own words to show it:

 

the Tao Te Ching was about rulers

Since the unification is not for another 200-400 years, then it must be applicable to future ruler (even past). Ergo, it seems reasonable to look at the timeframe

 

3. Use non-violence to take over the world(China). 以無事取天下

4. How do I know this can be done...???

5. From the list below.

 

Let's have a look at what you say

 

11. I'm being Wu Wei, then the people will be self developed. 我無為而民自化。

12. I'm being silent, then the people will be on the track.

13. I'm not being interfering, then the people will be rich. 我無事而民自富。

14. I'm not being covetous, then the people will be guileless.

 

Chapter 48 has the same phrase of 'take over the world', twice: And it has Wu Wei, twice as well.

 

There is Wu Wei involvement in the chapter, the book and said of the rulers numerous times. Maybe it is just me seeing Wu Wei is involved. What a novel concept I came up with

[ChiDragon]

This Chapter was only making suggestions how to run things. When someone took over the world should rule with Wu Wei. It wasn't saying that do not take over the world because of Wu Wei.

[dawei]

This Chapter was only making suggestions how to run things. When someone took over the world should rule with Wu Wei.

That's basically what I am saying... the reason I don't like "take over the world" is because I see the phrase as "to unify" and that takes a lot more than just "take over" a piece of land from a few states... It's a long term exhortation. Why else the list?

 

But this is going nowhere since my point is not coming across.

[Marblehead]

But this is going nowhere since my point is not coming across.

 

Hey! I've had that experience before. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

That's basically what I am saying... the reason I don't like "take over the world" is because I see the phrase as "to unify" and that takes a lot more than just "take over" a piece of land from a few states... It's a long term exhortation. Why else the list?

 

But this is going nowhere since my point is not coming across.

It is not a matter of what we like it or not; but that was what the text says. Even though it says take over the world, but actually the implication was to rule the world at the end. So, what difference does it make...?? Why should we be taken it so serious...?? Let's stop this kind of persnickety argument now and in the near future as well.

Edited August 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Actually it is about being "clear" or clarifying what one sees in a chapter. A little history is good to remind us not to get lost on a word or a chapter or a single book. I know you don't like to look outside of the DDJ to understand these issues but others do. So you can call it 'serious' or an argument if you want. Just stay calm.

[ChiDragon]

..............