Nishino Breathing Method And Zhan Zhuang

[Matt]

Edited March 19, 2009 by Matt

[Todd]

Hi Matt,

 

The advice I have consistently come across in the writings of Wang Xiang Zhai and students of his is to breath naturally. I remain grateful for this advice, because the expression of one's natural being is where its at for me, and every method seems at best temporary. Thats not to say that methods have no potential to speed things up in the right person at the right time, but they have never borne out long-term benefit for me.

 

One approach that I came upon fairly early, was to simply recognize that every breath, no matter how halting, is natural. Staying in that recognition, which is more a letting go than an exertion, is the most powerful "technique" that I have ever tried. I ended up trying other techniques since, thinking that perhaps they held more promise, but from my current perspective all of those techniques were a step down from the recognition of natural breath.

 

That said, if you feel drawn to breathing techniques, thats probably what you should do.

 

Todd

[sunshine]

A little "addition" to what Todd mentions... but a slightly different point... there are even many variations of visualizations in standing practice without being connected to breathing... and even in this case I'D first start standing "naturally" and simply listening to the body... to its longings/yearnings/etc. etc. etc. You might wish to add visualizations later to a larger extent to see if it makes any change... but I feel starting with "simple" standing, that is not that simple at all gives one a proper fundament for experiments later on...

 

and one thing to mention: there is a difference between visualizations for leading energy or whatever and those that are meant to keep your posture!

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

[thaddeus]

Hi Matt,

 

The advice I have consistently come across in the writings of Wang Xiang Zhai and students of his is to breath naturally. <...>

Todd

The problem with this advice is what does 'naturally' mean. Some may think it means abdominal breathing, sometimes natural is really reverse breathing. Sometimes people have no idea what it means to take a deep breath because of restrictions in the torso and repressed emotions. If i'm exerting force, I *naturally* pressurize my abdomen. So when someone says breathe naturally...it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means, so one could be completely off the mark as far as training is concerned. The point is you have to really question, study and test your knowledge to get to the point where you understand what naturally means.

Personally, I think Wang Xiang Zhai did alot more with his breath than he's letting on with that statement..

T

[Matt]

Edited March 19, 2009 by Matt

[freeform]

I'm not a very experienced stander, but I have looked into a lot of breathing methods, and have used them during standing.

 

There are a few things to consider... One of the things I found valuable when standing (this is usually a post practice 15 minutes hands at the side type of stance) is to imagine yourself expanding and contracting with the breath and to physically do it. It's quite subtle - as you breathe in you raise a little from your crown and your stomach and lower back expand then as you exhale your stomach, back and crown slightly contract in towards your LTT. This feels quite natural and unforced when the LTT is pulsing...

 

Another thing I've learnt is to create a reflex reaction where your body takes a deep breath automatically... I remember writing a post a long time ago explaining how to do this, I'll try and find it in a bit. The feeling is a bit like yawning - your lungs take a full, deep breath without you conciously engaging any muscles. After learning how to set off the reflex, it takes a couple of weeks to be able to do it spontaneously and without doing the reflex technique.

 

Eventually it's possible to combine the two techniques together - you make the intention of expanding and contracting from the LTT as you breathe and then just notice the reflex action doing it naturally.

[mYTHmAKER]

When standing I was taught to let the breath be natural

meaning don't focus on your breath let it happen.

Let it go where it wants to.

Let go - Don't "DO" anything. Just stand - relax.

[thaddeus]

When standing I was taught to let the breath be natural

meaning don't focus on your breath let it happen.

Let it go where it wants to.

Let go - Don't "DO" anything. Just stand - relax.

I think this type of instruction is why you don't see many 'westerners' with any skills to speak of. I know Fong Ha is a big proponent of the 'just stand there, you're already an expert approach, etc.' but it doesn't seem to doing much for people. No disrespect intended, just saying as a whole there aren't very many greats that were born from simply standing. Wang became great by training really really hard in Xing Yi. So if one wants to be like him, it follows one should train like he did. And there is alot of breath training and 'doing' in that system.

my two cents,

T

[Cameron]

Hi Matt,

 

I do ZZ and aikido. I think zz training is an awesome complementary practice to aikido and develops internal power and relaxation. As far as breathing, I don't control it. I do natural or abdominal breathing. inhale, abdomen expands, exhale abdomen contracts.

 

Same breathing as in zazen or the way a baby breathes..naturally.

 

From what I understand from Ken Cohen, Wang Zhang Xai taught different methods to different students and yiquan does have a system of sparring. For internal power development, I think it would be best to get with an authentic internal MA teacher who has developed those things. Otherwise your just guessing.

 

Cam

[thelerner]

Both parties might be right. You should breathe naturally. But we (westerners?) were never taught how to breathe. We are top breathers. We are nearly in a state of hyperventillation, but it is so normal we don't notice. Natural breathing is Much slower then what we usually do.

 

Michael

[Todd]

Edited September 1, 2006 by Todd

[mYTHmAKER]

I think this type of instruction is why you don't see many 'westerners' with any skills to speak of. I know Fong Ha is a big proponent of the 'just stand there, you're already an expert approach, etc.' but it doesn't seem to doing much for people. No disrespect intended, just saying as a whole there aren't very many greats that were born from simply standing. Wang became great by training really really hard in Xing Yi. So if one wants to be like him, it follows one should train like he did. And there is alot of breath training and 'doing' in that system.

my two cents,

T

 

I never met Fong Ha so I wouldn't judge the ability of his students

or him for that matter. We really have no way to judje what anything is doing for anyone else except for ourself. Where did they start from - how much did they improve.

Even if I were to see Fong Ha I would ony be able to see the external unless I

was at his level or beyond it.

The teacher I learned from in his seventies is no slouch and quite profficient in martial arts

fajing etc. I couldn't - wouldn't rate his students who I never met who are in China.

As for myself when I met him I was already breathing from my belly.

He had me standing for one and one half hours each time.

I was never told I was already an expert.

I believe it is more of a taoist approach - nothing forced - everything in it's time.

Some people are natural athletes, fighters etc. Some have to work at it.

What is your purpose for standing. Is it to have power so you can fight someone

or to root and be healthy. Mine is the latter.

[thaddeus]

 

What is your purpose for standing. Is it to have power so you can fight someone

or to root and be healthy. Mine is the latter.

I think the genious of the internal martial arts is that they are both the same. Healthy movement turns out to also be martial. Unhealthy movement is not martial. If you study applying your martial art, it turns out that it helps your form too. You can't neutralize a force without a root and you certainly can't express any kind of force without the same body mechanics that makes your chi flow.

My personal take on the visualizations of ichuan is that when properly done, they force the proper body mechanics. But you have to really feel it, not just imagine it. Mind and body are truly one in that sense. Other martial arts have weapons work that also force proper body mechanics such as the long pole and heavy guando. Without the proper extension and foundation you will just get hurt. Doing the weapons work teaches your body how to move. In these systems, visualizations are not emphasized as much. They still have them, but it's not that necessary..that's just my observations.

Also, Matt, when you look at this guys breathing exercise to breathe from the bottom of the feet and make the chi to the top of the head, my take is that if you really do the visualization, you will automatically do a reverse breath, in order to draw energy upwards..can't get the same feeling with a regular abdominal breath..

T

[Matt]

Edited March 19, 2009 by Matt

[freeform]

I'm personally with thaddeus on this... 'naturally' is such a hypnotic word (especially for the Taoist community). When people say it they picture or feel some ideal. Whether the ideal is 'in the momentness' or 'in line with the way of nature' or whatever doesn't really matter... the word naturally is like one of those advertising gimmicks - it brings about a feeling that is agreeable.

 

If naturally means, as Todd says, 'as it is in the moment' - then again there are several considerations - for example the moment prior to beginning an exercises is also important - you could be anxious, excited, relaxed, introspective, in love, calm etc. each of these would bring about a different 'natural' breathing style - which is the right one? I see people all the time breathing with the very top of their chest, quite rapidly - it's very natural to them (I find it hard to replicate).

 

I think a lot of practises aim to teach the body something new - whether it be a new way of directing energy or awareness, or body mechanics or muscular co-ordinations. From what I know about learning to learn something new, you have to do something new... otherwise you're not learning. I understand that there are people that try to train their awareness by not doing anything new - and that's also a skill (and not necessarily connected with standing).

 

There are other complexities - for example a child learning a language in a class will be far less fluent than a child learning the language in the environment it's 'naturally' used in. The difference here is the use of the subconscious - learning in a class, forcing a certain breathing pattern, moving into the 'correct' position all involves the conscious mind - which only has the ability to pay attention to 7 +or- 2 bits of information at a time. Some would say that a child learning a new language in the country that it's used is learning the language 'naturally' (which in my view doesn't really mean anything)... the difference is that the child would be learning the way s/he learnt hir first language which is a difficult process to duplicate consciously.

 

When I was showing my grandfather how to breath from the belly I didn't tell him to contract and expand his diaphragm (that's conscious learning). Instead I asked him to relax and move his attention down into his body - this is the way you can communicate with the subconscious - as he kept breathing lower and lower I asked him to imagine a balloon in his belly that contracts letting the breath out and then relaxes allowing the the air to re-enter. He was now breathing in his LTT 'naturally' - I could talk to him and completely distract his attention away from the breathing and his belly still did all the work.

 

So for myself I use several rules - if there is a goal in a practise then I somehow impart the intention to my body (in stages) until the goal is achieved without conscious effort.

 

If the goal is to not make any goals then that's a different story - it's going into a deep Yin state and I have my way of doing that.

 

The point is that standing has a rather specific set of goals - as far as I know letting things 'be as they are' is not one of them, until one reaches a level where you can stand for many many hours with no effort.

[KoHsuan]

Matt,

Could you tell where more information may be found on actual Nishino breathing trainings?? Book is currently not available from Amazon (out of stock).. and his website http://www.nishinojuku.com/english doesn't contain much details of it..

 

regards

[Ian]

The point is that standing has a rather specific set of goals.

 

Pray tell. I had no idea. I thought people stood in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons.

 

P.S. Trust you enjoyed the naming of the new semi-planet.

[Matt]

Edited March 19, 2009 by Matt

[thaddeus]

Nishino spends about 90% of the book making a case for what KI is and why we should cultivate.

I've never seen any book with any real details. Even something like 'bring the Ki up your legs' is not really a detail, it's just some kind of clue that is only corroborated after you're at a level where you don't need a book.

T

[Wanderer]

Greetings all,

 

I've had the book for some time now and will work it into a routine of some kind, but it looks and sounds an awful lot like zhan zhuang. Interesting, Nishino also seems to have developed quite a formidable empty force ability judging from the pictures.

 

Peace,

Chuck

Edited September 17, 2006 by Wanderer

[KoHsuan]

 

Nishino says to focus your breathing on the soles of the feet. He says you will eventually feel the KI rising up your legs, where you then to circulate it up the spine, to the crown on inhale. Then pause, holding your breath for moment, then bring the KI down the front and return it to the feet. Inhale and exhale through the soles of the feet.

 

Thanks Matt,

Did he mention any meridians which he using to circulate breath energy? Like "down the front" could be done in several ways..

[Matt]

Edited March 19, 2009 by Matt