Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[Stigweard]

Abstract:

 

Background The drafting of this test for Fajin ability came about through casual discussions had both on this forum and with associates on Facebook. In terms of its purpose, firstly it has to be clearly stated that this is not intended to debunk or discredit any person or tradition. It's purpose is to provide a format to create a foundation of scientific inquiry into this mysterious technique.

 

Methods used The test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The main test subject, referred to as the Demonstrator, will be attempting to perform fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment.

 

Results The results will be presented both in simple percentage terms and in terms of success or failure of the target result. These results, and associated video footage, may be used by the Demonstrator for educational and promotional purposes. These results will also become a collection of base-line data for further study and investigation of fajin and associated subjects.

 

Materials:

 

30 randomly selected test subjects

2 x adjoining rooms separated by a closable door

Blindfolds

Ground mats jigsaw puzzle style

Cam recorder

Stereo

1 box to hold index cards

2 sets of 30 index cards number 1 to 30

1 coin

6 adjudicators

 

Stipulations:

 

1. The Demonstrator cannot speak aloud or make any vocal/audible sounds.

2. The Demonstrator cannot make any foot-tapping, knocking, or other forms of noise that can be used as communication.

3. Subjects must be randomly selected and can not be a student, friend, associate or family member of the Demonstrator .

4. The Demonstrator is to be blindfolded during the test.

5. The test will be recorded via cam recorder.

6. The adjudicators must be independent and have no prior connection with either the Demonstrator or the organizer of the test.

7. The Demonstrator is to have no pre-knowledge of the location of the test.

8. The test must be overseen by an independent authority and have no prior connection with either the Demonstrator or the organizer of the test. An appropriate authority would be a University faculty or independent research organization. This authority does not have to have any prior association with martial arts.

9. The Demonstrator must wear only neutral clothing and nothing they wear must indicate any proficiency in martial arts or combat nor give any indication of what the test subjects might experience.

 

If any of the above listed are violated, or if it is determined the Demonstrator has attempted to tilt the results in his favor due to trickery of any kind, the test will be halted immediately and considered a failure.

 

If there is a setup or technological problem, or if for any reason the test must be halted due to extenuating circumstances rather than trickery, the test may be conducted up to two additional times. However, the Demonstrator must not be changed once the individual is chosen.

 

Pre-Test Survey:

 

Test subjects would be asked a simply lead in questionnaire as to their knowledge and experience of martial arts, in particular Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. This will be used to correlate post-test data.

 

Successful Test:

 

If the Demonstrator can physically move the test subject (i.e. meaning that the test subject will involuntarily move their feet and whole body away from the applicant) using only fajin* then the result will be considered a ‘hit’. If there are six hits out of ten attempts, the Demonstrator will have achieved the target result and the test deemed a success.

 

* “The outward sign of fajin is that the wrists and elbows of the person issuing fa-jin do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles - in Chinese, this is called "The arrow is fired, but the bow remains." The real test is to stand with one's feet parallel with someone at least your own size facing you in a well-rooted bow-stance, and instantly shear him off his feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet, with no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists.” -- Michael Phillips

 

Set-up:

 

Test Room: - the floor will be covered completely with the ground mats.

- cam recorder will be set up facing center side on to applicant

- stereo will be setup ready to play

- three adjudicators will be present

- one adjudicator will have a coin to flip

- one adjudicator will be managing test subjects

- one adjudicator will oversee blindfold of applicant

 

Prep room: - table with prepared index cards

- 3 adjudicators

 

Protocol:

 

Music will be played in the Test Room during the test to mask any sounds from physical movement.

 

The Demonstrator stands in the middle of the Test Room in a basic stance with feet parallel. They may raise their hands up into “embrace the tree” posture (upper or lower). They must be blindfolded at all times. After each test the relevant Adjudicator must recheck the integrity of the blindfold.

 

A group of 30 potential test subjects, who have passed Stipulation #3, will be gathered in the prep room with 3 Adjudicators whilst the applicant will wait with the other 3 Adjudicators in another room.

 

One set of the index cards numbered 1 to 30 will be shuffled and one card given to each test subject by an Adjudicator, the other set will be shuffled by another Adjudicator and dropped in the box in a loose fashion. One at a time an index card will be withdrawn from the box and the test subject whose number matches this card will be escorted into the Test Room and handed to the care of one of the Test Room Adjudicators.

 

An Adjudicator will flip a coin and if the result is ‘heads’ then the test subject will stand before the Demonstrator in a well-rooted bow-stance and will touch the Demonstrator's forearms with only their fingers.

 

The Demonstrator will have 30secs to attempt to physically move the test subject (i.e. instantly shear him off his feet, both feet clear of the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet) with the test subject only touching the forearms of the Demonstrator with their fingers.

 

If the coin flip result is ‘tails’ then the Demonstrator makes no attempt HOWEVER the test subject must still take up the test stance and touch the forearms of the Demonstrator as if a test was to take place. Only the Demonstrator will make NO attempt to demonstrate fajin.

 

After either a test or a non-attempt the test subject will be escorted from the room (via another door – i.e. the test subject will not be permitted to have any interaction with other possible test subjects) by an Adjudicator.

 

The test will be repeated with a different test subject until a total of 10 actual attempts have been conducted.

 

Time required:

 

No more than 1 hour.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Stigweard

[orb]

Sounds fair.

My question is to you Stigweard - can you do it?

[YMWong]

With all due respect it seems you guys have no idea about what 'fajin' is

 

YM

[orb]

With all due respect it seems you guys have no idea about what 'fajin' is

 

YM

 

 

That is true for me. I've only seen it on youtube and was never impressed by it.

Could you explain pls Mr TMWong?

[YMWong]

That is true for me. I've only seen it on youtube and was never impressed by it.

Could you explain pls Mr TMWong?

 

There are dozen types of 'jin', which is simply a 'trained/integrated' kind of power which has also different characteristics in different martial arts (Taijiquan does not have exclusivity of 'jin').

The different 'jin' can be 'fa(ed)' (issued) in many ways, resulting in a huge number of combinations.

 

Chen Yanlin lists, I seem to remember, a couple of dozen 'jins' in his Taijiquan book published in the '40.

 

Anyway, I see the logic expressed in the method and stipulations describes in the original post has having very, very little to do with actual 'fajin' ... if any

 

YM

[orb]

There are dozen types of 'jin', which is simply a 'trained/integrated' kind of power which has also different characteristics in different martial arts (Taijiquan does not have exclusivity of 'jin').

The different 'jin' can be 'fa(ed)' (issued) in many ways, resulting in a huge number of combinations.

 

Chen Yanlin lists, I seem to remember, a couple of dozen 'jins' in his Taijiquan book published in the '40.

 

Anyway, I see the logic expressed in the method and stipulations describes in the original post has having very, very little to do with actual 'fajin' ... if any

 

YM

 

So my question is to you then, What kind of fajin (if any) can you demonstrate? I don't need book references - I can use google and amazon for that. I want to see a practical demonstration please.

[YMWong]

So my question is to you then, What kind of fajin (if any) can you demonstrate? I don't need book references - I can use google and amazon for that. I want to see a practical demonstration please.

 

What do you want to see 'fajin' for, I wonder

'Fajin' means nothing in a confrontation, totally nothing, it has just become a fashionable items sold to the gullible. And by the way some kinds of 'jin' are totally invisible thou of course can ben felt

 

Much if not all 'fajin' that you see on the web is just people shaking

Ask them to mesure the impact force of their strikes and compare to those of a beginner (western) boxer ... you will be surprised

 

YM

[orb]

What do you want to see 'fajin' for, I wonder

'Fajin' means nothing in a confrontation, totally nothing, it has just become a fashionable items sold to the gullible. And by the way some kinds of 'jin' are totally invisible thou of course can ben felt

 

Much if not all 'fajin' that you see on the web is just people shaking

Ask them to mesure the impact force of their strikes and compare to those of a beginner (western) boxer ... you will be surprised

 

YM

Well I totally agree with you there, but I am curious about your opinion on these kind of demos

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhPDm8G_cyc

This guy call it fajin!

Edited August 3, 2011 by orb

[ChiDragon]

There are dozen types of 'jin', which is simply a 'trained/integrated' kind of power which has also different characteristics in different martial arts (Taijiquan does not have exclusivity of 'jin').

The different 'jin' can be 'fa(ed)' (issued) in many ways, resulting in a huge number of combinations.

 

Chen Yanlin lists, I seem to remember, a couple of dozen 'jins' in his Taijiquan book published in the '40.

 

Anyway, I see the logic expressed in the method and stipulations describes in the original post has having very, very little to do with actual 'fajin' ... if any

 

YM

"(Taijiquan does not have exclusivity of 'jin')."

With all respect, this was an understatement about Tai Ji Quan. It is tolerable for one that does not understand what is (勁)Jin if, and only if, that s/he is not a Tai Ji Quan practitioner. However, if a Tai Ji practitioner does not know what Jin is, then s/he was not taught properly.

 

I'm totally in agreement with the last statement in the above post.

[Stigweard]

Sounds fair.

My question is to you Stigweard - can you do it?

Nope ... haven't bothered to even try because I haven't seen anyone apply this type of empty-force fajin in a real combat situation. What's the point of spending so much time learning something if it doesn't work.

 

[ChiDragon]

So my question is to you then, What kind of fajin (if any) can you demonstrate? I don't need book references - I can use google and amazon for that. I want to see a practical demonstration please.

Jin is a spontaneous body strength from Tai Ji practice. You either have it or feel it in you. A demonstration will not help you to understand what it is. You have to experienced yourself.

 

Again, I will repeat myself the nuance between the characters 力(li) and 勁(Jin).

 

1. 力(li): a normal body strength.

2. 勁(Jin): a tremendous body strength practiced from Tai Ji; it could be 5 to 10 times the normal body strength.

 

1. 發力(Fa Li) is to exert a normal body force in the arm; and the arm must move forward in contact with the object.

 

2. 發勁(Fa Jin) is to exert the tremendous force in the arm and the arm only require a slight movement or none to move an object. The arm does not has to move as much nor stay in contact with the object as oppose to 發力(Fa Li). We can see a demonstration in the video posted by orb. Did see the student moved back and the instructor did not have to move an inch...???

[Stigweard]

With all due respect it seems you guys have no idea about what 'fajin' is

 

YM

With "all due respect", it is poor form to get all cranky decrying our ignorance and then not sharing a single scrap of evidence as proof.

 

This is actually the whole point of the topic ... WHERE'S THE PROOF???

 

Here's Michael Phillips' "definition":

 

“The outward sign of fajin is that the wrists and elbows of the person issuing fa-jin do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles - in Chinese, this is called "The arrow is fired, but the bow remains." The real test is to stand with one's feet parallel with someone at least your own size facing you in a well-rooted bow-stance, and instantly shear him off his feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet, with no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists.” -- Michael Phillips

 

And here is him demonstrating:

 

http://youtu.be/3CHCJjKjwMk

 

Now is this, in your educated opinion, what fajin is?

 

[ChiDragon]

Nope ... haven't bothered to even try because I haven't seen anyone apply this type of empty-force fajin in a real combat situation. What's the point of spending so much time learning something if it doesn't work.

 

That's all I have to say is that one hasn't reached to that level to experience it. It is not a matter of learning. It was a result from practice of Tai Ji. If one cannot Fa Jin, it is just an indication that one need to do more practicing until getting to that level.

[Stigweard]

Something I wrote on FB around this subject:

 

With all due respect to [names omitted] (and I truly mean this), the test protocol that I have constructed ( http://bit.ly/pznoDZ ) is an opportunity to get some real research and credible data together.

 

At the moment there is not one single video clip on the web that I can find that gives the sort of clear evidence of fajin that would hold up in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

 

The question is "Why not?"

 

You call it an advanced technology. So why is there a universal absence of any credible experimental evidence?? There is not one single research paper, not one single journal article, and not one single documentary to be found that outlines any amount of credible data accrued through proper scientific testing.

 

Again "Why?"

 

Again with deepest respect, you chaps are lauding claims that this is somehow a superior martial ability. And yet, once again, there is not one scrap of substantiated evidence to back it up. All we have is your videos of you and your students, which cannot be taken as scientific proof.

 

I am deeply passionate about Taijiquan, but I believe this tragic absence of the scientific evidence for the "advanced technology" of empty force fajin is doing us all a disservice.

[templetao]

Well i am very glad this is going to be done.

Edited August 4, 2011 by templetao

[dwai]

Something I wrote on FB around this subject:

 

With all due respect to [names omitted] (and I truly mean this), the test protocol that I have constructed ( http://bit.ly/pznoDZ ) is an opportunity to get some real research and credible data together.

 

At the moment there is not one single video clip on the web that I can find that gives the sort of clear evidence of fajin that would hold up in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

 

The question is "Why not?"

 

You call it an advanced technology. So why is there a universal absence of any credible experimental evidence?? There is not one single research paper, not one single journal article, and not one single documentary to be found that outlines any amount of credible data accrued through proper scientific testing.

 

Again "Why?"

 

Again with deepest respect, you chaps are lauding claims that this is somehow a superior martial ability. And yet, once again, there is not one scrap of substantiated evidence to back it up. All we have is your videos of you and your students, which cannot be taken as scientific proof.

 

I am deeply passionate about Taijiquan, but I believe this tragic absence of the scientific evidence for the "advanced technology" of empty force fajin is doing us all a disservice.

 

What exactly is "Empty Force" Fa Jin? Obviously there is a force applied otherwise there would be no physical movement. Now "where" the force is being generated, how the energy behind the force propagates is the important question.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Don't know if this all can be considered fajin, but GM Huang demonstrated a lot of different types of power release in these videos. Looks like he was having a lot of fun as well:

 

It's also interesting how some tai chi masters (in this case Master Zhu Datong) get their opponent bouncing like a ball or spinning like a top:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkFJ8obAQE&feature=related

Edit: This is a bit clearer demo of some of his techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kocYP6u6YEA&feature=related

He is having a lot of fun in this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&feature=related

 

Edited August 3, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Oolong Rabbit]

I was told by a well known tao master that fajin was little more than tendon elasticity. She pretty much shrugged it off as trivial. Sometimes it does appear that way:

 

 

Other times it looks like there is some kind of subtle energetic repulsion going on which lacks the explosiveness of fajin:

 

 

[Oolong Rabbit]

Don't know if this all can be considered fajin, but GM Huang demonstrated a lot of different types of power release in these videos. Looks like he was having a lot of fun as well:

 

It's also interesting how some tai chi masters get their opponent bouncing like a ball or spinning like a top:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkFJ8obAQE&feature=related

 

 

Okay, so were you reading my mind or was I reading yours?

[ChiDragon]

What exactly is "Empty Force" Fa Jin? Obviously there is a force applied otherwise there would be no physical movement. Now "where" the force is being generated, how the energy behind the force propagates is the important question.

I believe the "Empty Force" is an invisible force which has to be felt by one individual. They don't call it "Jin" for nothing.

 

As far as:

1. "Gives the sort of clear evidence of fajin that would hold up in a peer-reviewed scientific journal."

 

2. "Not one single documentary to be found that outlines any amount of credible data accrued through proper scientific testing."

 

There are many esoteric literature written in the Chines Language, but was not translated into English for some reason. The facts about "Jin" and "Tai Ji Kung" was told to me by the word of mouth. In my School, I was told on the side while other westerner students were talking among themselves. It is because the term "Jin" is a Chinese term and it's easy for a Chinese to grasp and understand. Like I said before, Jin has to be experienced. It is the same situation as Tao or Chi. Who can explain them by words....???

 

PS....

This was happened last Sunday. A friend of mine saw me in a supermarket. He asked me about my Tai Ji or Chi Kung practice. I had told him I have more Jin than few years ago. Then, I held up my right hand and touch his upper left arm with the back of my wrist and fajin slightly. Immediately, he told me that he felt my Jin.

Edited August 3, 2011 by ChiDragon

[The Way Is Virtue]

Okay, so were you reading my mind or was I reading yours?

 

[h.uriahr]

I'm not sure about how to set up a proper protocol but I'd like share briefly my experience.

 

It involves a 63 year old man and myself, I'm 6ft, 230lbs. There was a little movement involved, a small pushing action, the results of which were stunning.

 

In his living room, he wanted to demonstrate a small potential involved with tai chi. I had no actual idea of what he meant but I was slightly braced for something physical as I thought it would be. His movement wasn't much but he did actually perform a pushing motion. the physical motion didn't didn't match the force.

 

I was "thrown" back roughly 6 ft but that wasn't what frightened me. My ears felt like they imploded and started ringing and physically and mentally I was disoriented. I would liken it to getting involved in a hit and run collision. I lost all motor control as well as having a complete mental blank, wondering what had just happened, where was I, etc.

 

I'm still not properly describing the experience. It's very hard to put it into words. It wasn't anything like the videos I've seen though.

[YMWong]

And here is him demonstrating:

 

http://youtu.be/3CHCJjKjwMk

 

Now is this, in your educated opinion, what fajin is?

 

No, in my opinion this is just wishful thinking but to each his own

 

In any case, even if one has real 'jin' it is still useless in a fight, unless he has the number one quality necessary in Martial Arts: guts

 

If you want to see real 'jin' you better look in this direction

 

 

YM

 

PS: it seems you are now talking about 'empty-fo(a)rce' so that would be so-called 'lingkong jin' so I think you better get your terminology straight

[YMWong]

Basically, this is Lingkong jin

 

 

I also suggest everyone to go throu all of the excellent Derren Brown videos which very much concern not only to this specific topic but to a lot of posts on this forum IMO

 

Best

 

YM

[Andrei]

I agree with YMWong about the efficiency of Fa Jin in combat but I consider none of the above videos Fa Jin. The best exponent of Fa Jin release was master Shi Ming which was capable to discharge "electric shocks" similarly to Hu Yaozhen. So yes you can use this capability but only to break the defense of the opponent and to gain valuable seconds that may change the odds of victory in a fight.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Ie_SwXyXVqY

 

 

I would look into this direction for explaining some Fa Jin demos:

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Electric_eel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ_discharge

Edited August 4, 2011 by steam