Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I had seen this video before. Have you notice how the demonstrator holds his breath and contract his muscles. Despite to his claim that his Chi was concentrated on the surface of the skin in the front muscles. Here is what I believe: when the Chi was held in the dan tian, it was like a balloon or a car tire which act as a cushion; and the contraction of the muscles which are hardened to withstand the big impact.

 

Form now on, if you see any Chi Kung demonstration, the first thing you should observe are his breathing and muscles. If you are a practitioner of Chi Kung, have you noticed that your muscles had been developed more hardened or better muscle tone than before...???

[mYTHmAKER]

If you step into a blow you take it before it reaches full force.

Every little bit helps

[zerostao]

The "problem" I have with fa jin demonstrations is that there is so much BS out there. We have dozens of wannabe's performing demonstrations that deserve Oscars, and as soon as anyone challenges these claims they are censured and ridiculed for asking the obvious (as I have discovered ).

 

In my FB discussions one person did actually get my point:

 

"I, personally, find it exciting that these skills are being brought out into the light of appreciation. This will clear the air of fakers, innocent misunderstanding, useless practices, and Tie-Chee. Also, this will allow us to appreciate the incredible science of the internal arts. I can't even imagine how much skill, time, and physical genius has gone into creating this system! It deserves appreciation by a wider audience than the lucky indoor few."

 

In the wider martial arts world we are being laughed at all over the world. Taiji is just a big JOKE and it is all because we have these frauds standing up trying to say that what they have is the true Taiji.

 

But as I pointedly asked ... where's the proof?

 

And just me feeling a "Master's" touch is not enough. I am also a professional Magician and Mentalist, and it is frighteningly easy for people to fool themselves into believing in lie.

 

Because there is a universal absence of scientific proof which can be used as a baseline tool for measurement, and because most teachers refuse to be tested for whatever excuse (most of them just BS smokescreens to avoid being embarrassed), we now have an open market for any idiot to step up and show a few clips on Youtube and declare himself a master. What's more scary is that there is a salivating market out there of willing believers who will max out their credit cards for the pleasure of buying into yet another fantasy.

 

It's because of this that I have all but renounced my traditional ties and refuse to either learn or teach anything about Fa Jin beyond simply human mechanics. I have stripped my Taiji back to its barest essentials and am now mixing that with other styles because I will never allow myself to be caught in the trap of thinking that I can perform these "minor miracles" of Fa Jin.

 

And yes I guess I am angry, furious actually, at this bunch of chaps who gather round slapping each other on the ass, telling each other how damn wonderful each other are without realizing the dishonor and shame they are actually causing to both themselves and the internal arts.

 

What alot of these chaps don't realize is that I am part of the new generation of practitioners that are coming through. We aren't as bound to the Master/Student structure as they are. We question things and we want proof before committing time, effort and money a line of study. And we have the internet at our finger tips where we can gather and cross-compare info faster than ever.

 

Taiji and the deep philosophy behind it has so many incredible gifts to offer the world. But it currently is shooting itself in the foot and making itself distasteful because of the proliferation of these frauds and charlatans.

 

If I could get a bunch of these "elders" to get involved in the sort of research I am suggesting we could develop a foundation of credible research that would go lightyears to reestablish credibility for the internal arts. Because at the moment we are just seen as a carnivale of delusional clowns.

 

amusing lil rant. (i wish i had yer falling down laughing emoticon to insert here)

however here on TTB i do see alot of this "faster than ever" or the fastest way to

whatever mentality that is not productive in anyway.

patience, perserverance, practice actually does work better imo.

it is unfortunate that there are frauds that do bring shame on themself.

they do not bring shame on tai chi itself.

if a true master steps up and volunteers for your "scientific proof test"

cool, if none do, that is cool too.

looks like you have many interests and acheivements

you are not looking to add the title of taiji master to your resume'?

becoz i am thinking that to be such a thing truly, is to commit to it

entirely and exclusitively and not as a sideline hobby.

it is a great healthy hobby for sure, it feels good to do, it looks cool.

i hear many who say "well i have x number

of years study in this or that" how many hours does one have in it?

hours each day every day. it has to become one's life.

it is common that many folks want to get somewhere without having to do what it takes to get there.

if you dont eat tai chi, drink it,breathe it, sleep it, dream it, ponder on it, take it to a spiritual

level, why expect to become great at it?

i hate cliche' but there are something to cliche' that made them a cliche' , i reckon.

but however you say it > when you are ready to find your teacher , that teacher will appear or find you. that article on readiness by sifu jenny

[dawei]

Yes, I had seen this video before. Have you notice how the demonstrator holds his breath and contract his muscles. Despite to his claim that his Chi was concentrated on the surface of the skin in the front muscles. Here is what I believe: when the Chi was held in the dan tian, it was like a balloon or a car tire which act as a cushion; and the contraction of the muscles which are hardened to withstand the big impact.

 

Form now on, if you see any Chi Kung demonstration, the first thing you should observe are his breathing and muscles. If you are a practitioner of Chi Kung, have you noticed that your muscles had been developed more hardened or better muscle tone than before...???

Have you ever touched someone's mid-area who has fully developed Iron Shirt?

 

I have. It feels like a stone wall, it's not muscle. Even on the sides where normally it is more hallow feeling, and throughout the ribs. And I am talking about a guy how has no muscle tone at all; relaxed it is slightly more flabby.

 

I am not justifying what this guy in the video has or does not have but of course if someone has not experienced this they might just talk it away as muscle flexing.

[ChiDragon]

Have you ever touched someone's mid-area who has fully developed Iron Shirt?

 

I have. It feels like a stone wall, it's not muscle. Even on the sides where normally it is more hallow feeling, and throughout the ribs. And I am talking about a guy how has no muscle tone at all; relaxed it is slightly more flabby.

 

I am not justifying what this guy in the video has or does not have but of course if someone has not experienced this they might just talk it away as muscle flexing.

I am not as lucky as you are. No, I have not touch a guy with iron shirt. I only understand or had been told that you cannot even get close to the guy with iron shirt within some distance like three to five feet away. You might feel that there is an invisible wall was surrounded him.

 

I wonder have you really notice how the monk, in the video, had his muscles tensed up....??? I was just talk it away as muscle flexing by my observation of the thing that was presented to me without any unrelated outside sources.

 

IMO The monk in the video did not perform Iron Shirt, it seems to me he was only doing an ordinary Chi King Demo in resisting a great impact of force.

[Green Tiger]

Anyone serious about taiji, yes.

 

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 

Where would this demonstration take place?

[dawei]

I only understand or had been told that you cannot even get close to the guy with iron shirt within some distance like three to five feet away. You might feel that there is an invisible wall was surrounded him.

Wei Qi field. Depends what one wants to do with it. If you let it collapse to the body they you can at least approach the body.

 

I wonder have you really notice how the monk, in the video, had his muscles tensed up....??? I was just talk it away as muscle flexing by my observation of the thing that was presented to me without any unrelated outside sources.

 

IMO The monk in the video did not perform Iron Shirt, it seems to me he was only doing an ordinary Chi King Demo in resisting a great impact of force.

That is possible. I am not there to get a better understanding of what he is doing. I think if they wanted to truly test it, then strike a bone or something that ought to break. I did notice how the bat recoiled very fast though, as if possibly repelled. So there are a few things to observe but no conclusion to make.

 

I have come to understand that martial aspects of Qi can be much more powerful than those who have no martial background. It's a general observation/opinion but I don't think that what I am calling this martial Qi ability is the same as what most do.

[doc benway]

If you have no guts, in "close quarter fighting", you will be too busy filling up your underpants to think about your flashy 'fajin'

 

YM

I agree with you on that 100%. And fa jin ain't flashy. It should be subtle, quick, and felt more than seen.

[Stigweard]

If you have no guts, in "close quarter fighting", you will be too busy filling up your underpants to think about your flashy 'fajin'

 

YM

 

Quaintly put, and I agree in full

[ChiDragon]

Wei Qi field. Depends what one wants to do with it. If you let it collapse to the body they you can at least approach the body.

 

You know quite a bit of the terms in the TCM. And people do borrow them to describe Chi Kung.

Here its definition in the TCM　explanation section of my acupuncture book.

 

衛氣(Wei Qi): It was from the food essence that we eat. It functions to protect the muscular surface, defend the body against exogenous pathogenic factors is its principle function, hence its name is 衛氣(Wei Qi), the protective field or shield..... In Chi Kung, it could be meant the "protective shield".

 

Good thing that you had mentioned: " If you let it collapse to the body they you can at least approach the body." I want to hear it from your understanding. Before it collapse, do you know how it was generated...??? I mean what one has to do to the body, in order, to produce the 衛氣(Wei Qi).

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Here its definition in the TCM　explanation section of my acupuncture book.

 

衛氣(Wei Qi): It was from the food essence that we eat. It functions to protect the muscular surface, defend the body against exogenous pathogenic factors is its principle function, hence its name is 衛氣(Wei Qi), the protective field or shield..... In Chi Kung, it could be meant the "protective shield".

 

Good thing that you had mentioned: " If you let it collapse to the body they you can at least approach the body." I want to hear it from your understanding. Before it collapse, do you know how it was generated...??? I mean what one has to do to the body, in order, to produce the 衛氣(Wei Qi).

You may not realize that Wei Qi field in TCM, Qigong, and Medical Qigong may have different meanings. I'll just quote material since it's easy to find the Medical Qigong meaning:

 

http://www.medicalqigongflorida.com/faq/what-is-medical-qigong/

 

Question: Who can benefit from MQ therpy?

Answer: Medical Qigong has been used successfully to treat difficult, stubborn, and sometimes chronic conditions that do not respond well to other types of medicine. Children, the elderly, people in frail health, and highly sensitive people tend to respond better to Medical Qigong than other TCM modalities.

 

All living bodies generate an external field of energy called Wei Qi (pronounced "whey chee"), which translates as"protective energy." The definition of Wei Qi in Classical Chinese Medicine (CCM), Chinese Energetic Medicine or Medical Qigong is slightly different than that of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM).

 

In classical TCM texts, the Wei Qi field is seen to be limited to the surface of the body, circulating within the tendon and muscle tissues.

 

In Medical Qigong, however, the Wei Qi field also includes the three external layers of the body's auric and subtle energy fields. This energy originates from each of the internal organs and radiates through the external tissues. There the Wei Qi forms an energy field that radiates from the entire physical body. This field of Qi protects the body from the invasion of external pathogens and communicates with, as well as interacts with, the surrounding universal and environmental energy fields.

 

 

http://www.qiwithoutborders.org/hara.html

 

Scroll towards bottom to see The three wei qi fields

[ChiDragon]

Very good, even more technical terms are created, in English, to confuse the western public...

 

BTW I was not fond of the Chinese definition of 衛氣(Wei Qi) neither.

 

I am also very disappointed that there are so many people who practice and teach Tai Chi Quan without knowing the definition of Jin nor how to recognize the demonstration of Fa Jin. I am speechless....

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

Anyone serious about taiji, yes.

 

As for studies, have you seen this one guys?

 

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Ahh see ... now here is a good start +1

 

Good on Master Wang (?? correct spelling) for stepping up to the plate. Undeniable that there is some great skill going on here.

 

Critical thinking time.

 

Firstly his assistant is suspect. He hits the dummy with 790 pounds of force saying that that is what he is going to hit Master Wang with, but the truth is that he only hits with 484 pounds of force. It would have been better to load the baseball bat to a mechanical devise so that the hits were exactly the same.

 

Also at 4:14 you see that Master Wang is not hit with the outer parabola of the swing. He moved forward inside the arc of the swing enough to prevent the full force impacting. Note that the sensor devices on the bat are at the end, so whilst at the end of the bat was swinging with 484 pounds that is not the force that Master Wang received at the point of impact. Thus the 484 pounds needs to be rounded down further.

 

Notice also that the assistant whipped the bat backwards after impact, which of course everyone assumed was because of Master Wang's "qi repulsion". But he used the same striking method with the ratan staff during the spear demo so this also needs to be given some consideration. Again mechanical instruments would negate this sort of human-influenced conjecture.

 

Impressive sure, but not quite as impressive as it's made out to be.

 

The spear feat. Firstly is it the same spear? We can only take their word for it, but that's just the magician in me being skeptical

 

Regardless of that, a point of metal with 2100 psi pressure behind it into the soft tissue of the neck is rather impressive. The assistant's hit spiked the psi up to 2900 at point of impact. The assistant did whip the staff backwards the same as with the bat. However 2900 psi is still 2900 psi.

 

So all credit where credit is due

 

Final analysis:

 

 

Next test for Master Wang ... 3 rounds with Randy Couture

Edited August 6, 2011 by Stigweard

[Stigweard]

amusing lil rant. (i wish i had yer falling down laughing emoticon to insert here)

 

 

[img=http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif]

 

There you go, cut and paste as required. Just don't overuse the poor little fella, I got him working hard enough as it is

 

however here on TTB i do see alot of this "faster than ever" or the fastest way to

whatever mentality that is not productive in anyway.

patience, perserverance, practice actually does work better imo.

it is unfortunate that there are frauds that do bring shame on themself.

they do not bring shame on tai chi itself.

if a true master steps up and volunteers for your "scientific proof test"

cool, if none do, that is cool too.

looks like you have many interests and acheivements

you are not looking to add the title of taiji master to your resume'?

becoz i am thinking that to be such a thing truly, is to commit to it

entirely and exclusitively and not as a sideline hobby.

it is a great healthy hobby for sure, it feels good to do, it looks cool.

i hear many who say "well i have x number

of years study in this or that" how many hours does one have in it?

hours each day every day. it has to become one's life.

it is common that many folks want to get somewhere without having to do what it takes to get there.

if you dont eat tai chi, drink it,breathe it, sleep it, dream it, ponder on it, take it to a spiritual

level, why expect to become great at it?

i hate cliche' but there are something to cliche' that made them a cliche' , i reckon.

but however you say it > when you are ready to find your teacher , that teacher will appear or find you. that article on readiness by sifu jenny

And I agree completely with what you have written here

[dawei]

Notice also that the assistant whipped the bat backwards after impact, which of course everyone assumed was because of Master Wang's "qi repulsion". But he used the same striking method with the ratan staff during the spear demo so this also needs to be given some consideration. Again mechanical instruments would negate this sort of human-influenced conjecture.

Let's not forget that the laying down dummy was soft and absorbs the impact; note how far the bat goes in. Iron Shirt is NEVER meant to absorb but repel or withstand. So it is very difficult to make a comparison; one is left with some observations, and as you note, without consistent measurements applied. A machine-generated swing would be a big improvement as well as people who know this is a potential source of an issue before they roll the cameras like they even know what they are doing

Edited August 6, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Very good, even more technical terms are created, in English, to confuse the western public...

Only confusing if one attempts to actually understand something without proper guidance and instruction. The problem becomes two fold:

1. People read something and then try it. maybe we call this Qi roulette

2. People find someone but that person does not really understand it too. maybe we call this the blind leading the blind

 

 

BTW I was not fond of the Chinese definition of 衛氣(Wei Qi) neither.

 

I am also very disappointed that there are so many people who practice and teach Tai Chi Quan without knowing the definition of Jin nor how to recognize the demonstration of Fa Jin. I am speechless....

I can appreciate your heritage and importance to this art. On the other hand, I am fully convinced that the chinese really never want to disclose the whole truth. Family teachings and secrets; masters noding their head whether it's right or wrong; expectations that 20 years is minimum for a beginning to go to the next level

 

In the Qing Dynasty (Manchu rule) the court requested to be taught Taiji. In characteristic chinese fashion the chinese were quick to satisfy... and so taught them Taiji... lots of waving hands and steps

 

All the 'outer aspects' were taught but not the 'inner aspects'. After that there [if one knows the chinese] a silent decision to keep this even more remotely secret from the world of barbarians

 

So... who is share in the blame for a lack of western understanding

 

---

 

Personal note: I am more and more convinced that whatever anyone learns is always less than the full potential since something is always held back. I see too many examples of this which is not worth the time to say now.

[ChiDragon]

dawei..........

That was exactly where I am tried to get to.

I do appreciate your humblest opinion. You said it all and said it well.

 

I thank you very much....

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

And we could always apply some critical thinking to these as well:

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkujscyFVQ&feature=related

 

People are so desperate to believe

Edited August 9, 2011 by Stigweard

[goldisheavy]

And we could always apply some critical thinking to this BS as well:

People are so desperate to believe

 

People are desperate to believe all sorts of things. Some people are desperate to believe that magic is real. Others are desperate to believe that magic is not real. I don't see any specific philosophical camp that lacks in desperation.

[Stigweard]

People are desperate to believe all sorts of things. Some people are desperate to believe that magic is real. Others are desperate to believe that magic is not real. I don't see any specific philosophical camp that lacks in desperation.

 

Personally I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but let evidence with a good degree of critical thinking speak for itself.

 

Edited August 6, 2011 by Stigweard

[ChiDragon]

 

Personally I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but let evidence with a good degree of critical thinking speak for itself.

 

Stigweard...

I have the impression that you are a Tai Chi instructor, am I correct....???

 

Personally, I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but to be experienced myself.

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[on the path]

 

 

 

I love it!!

 

The worst fakers I've ever seen, you even see the faker nod his head when he wants the student to go backwards!!

[templetao]

Taichi is a valid path like yoga and so on.

Edited August 6, 2011 by templetao

[on the path]

And we could always apply some critical thinking to this BS as well:

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkujscyFVQ&feature=related

 

People are so desperate to believe

 

 

Just got time to add this also. Back to my original post, it is only common sense, if you get hit by an electrical current it will hurt, burn and possibly kill you. The amount of volts one needs to issue energy sufficient to move the average human being is a great deal!!. To posses this amount of energy all the time and be able to summon it at will means that the body must be changed over many, many years, so that it can withstand that amount of voltage passing through it. It 300 volts will kill and move a man so it will kill the person who posses it!!!