Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[orb]

Hi Stig. Rather than slinging mud at various people from your computer desk chair, why not contact Mr. Phillips and others you have implied are fakes here and ask if they would mind if you visited them in person for some friendly skills comparison? Then you can report back here and speak from real experience on how good or poor their skills are? Make sure to video tape the events fully without editing so we can see the actual results for ourselves.

 

All I see all over the net is various people calling various teachers fakes and such but these same computer desk masters often never seem to be willing to get up out of their desk chairs and go respectfully compare skills in person with the other teachers/students they are putting down or making snide comments about. What ever happened to common courtesy and respect...? Sorry but this needed to be said, IMO. Real internal skill is hidden. If you want to test someone's internal skill you really need to go and meet them and at least push hands with them or maybe do some friendly sparring to see what internal skill they really have. If someone has real internal skill it shouldn't take long to find that out. You don't have to conduct a scientific experiment as anyone who is really interested in finding out the truth can just go and visit various teachers and experience the truth for themself. Sure it takes some effort and may cost a bit of money, but at least then one will be speaking from real knowledge and experience instead of just idle speculation...

 

 

I've done that effort and spent that money already. Don't even bother. They are fakes all these guys in the videos in this thread at least and a whole bunch of others. Some of them (the smart ones, I guess) just don't want to be tested (like Mr Phillips). Of course they have classic excuses like: Oh I practice only for health reason, oh you can ask such and such if you don't believe me or you can watch my videos etc....) None of them make any sense.

 

Why would you call yourself a "martial" artist if you are scared to show your fighting skill? You don't have to go any competition or anything like that all you have to do is a demo on a non-believer.

 

Oh no! but the grandmaster is already tired of proving to the nonbelievers and he is retired now. They are all tired and retired but there is not one single recorded proof of a "fajin" guy knocking out a regular boxer or smb like that.

But when it comes to film cheap tricks like the "spear in the throat" or break the stick against my chi belly - no problem - hundreds of hours of footage. Hundreds of useless "fajin" video demos on the internet and none of them against a non-student.

Oh and give me a break with the argument "closed door/big family secret" hidden dragon crouching tiger junk that's soooooo cheap and outdated

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig. Rather than slinging mud at various people from your computer desk chair, why not contact Mr. Phillips and others you have implied are fakes here and ask if they would mind if you visited them in person for some friendly skills comparison? Then you can report back here and speak from real experience on how good or poor their skills are? Make sure to video tape the events fully without editing so we can see the actual results for ourselves.

 

All I see all over the net is various people calling various teachers fakes and such but these same computer desk masters often never seem to be willing to get up out of their desk chairs and go respectfully compare skills in person with the other teachers/students they are putting down or making snide comments about. What ever happened to common courtesy and respect...? Sorry but this needed to be said, IMO. Real internal skill is hidden. If you want to test someone's internal skill you really need to go and meet them and at least push hands with them or maybe do some friendly sparring to see what internal skill they really have. If someone has real internal skill it shouldn't take long to find that out. You don't have to conduct a scientific experiment as anyone who is really interested in finding out the truth can just go and visit various teachers and experience the truth for themself. Sure it takes some effort and may cost a bit of money, but at least then one will be speaking from real knowledge and experience instead of just idle speculation...

What makes you think I haven't approached them directly? In fact I have asked Michael Phillips and others of his ilk directly to either show demonstrations of him using his "Fa Jin" in full contact or consider engaging in the experiment in the OP.

 

The response(s)?

 

Well firstly there were the usual:

 

~ Science can't measure Fa Jin etc.

 

Well that is BS because, whilst we haven't the instrumentation to measure Qi directly, we can most certainly measure the effects and the Qigong Institute is laying an awesome foundation of research in this direction.

 

Then there was the usual:

 

~ You have to feel it for yourself to prove it

 

Sorry but this is not proof of any sort. I have made a living of making people believe the impossible (I am a professional magician and mentalist) and it is shockingly easy for someone to fool themselves into believing a lie.

 

Then our esteemed "masters" attempted some character assination firstly about my age then about my lineage. When they could not get any traction there they kicked me from the FB group

 

I will however give a shout out of respect to Adam Mizner who was the only one who approached the discussion in a productive manner.

 

[The Way Is Virtue]

I've done that effort and spent that money already. Don't even bother. They are fakes all these guys in the videos in this thread at least and a whole bunch of others. Some of them (the smart ones, I guess) just don't want to be tested (like Mr Phillips). Of course they have classic excuses like: Oh I practice only for health reason, oh you can ask such and such if you don't believe me or you can watch my videos etc....) None of them make any sense.

 

So Feng Ziqiang, Huang Sheng Shyan (deceased now, I believe) and Zhu Datong are all fakes? Seriously? All three of these masters are/were highly respected internal martial arts masters. BTW, for traditional teachers, if one approaches them very respectfully and asks them politely if they can find some time to demonstrate some of their skills on you, if you are respectful enough and they think you are have achieved enough martial arts ability to know how to fall without getting hurt too easily they might ask a senior student to show you some things, or if they are not too busy and they find you likeable and respectful enough they might even personally show you some things themselves as well. Some may wait till they get to know you better first, so you may have to hanfg around for some time before they are comfortable enough wioth you to show you something. Traditionally one might not even be given the opportunity to approach the master directly without first being introduced by a close student to the master. Nowadays things have started to become less formal however with some of the newer gerneration teachers. However, most anyone may not respond too cordially if they see that someone is not really sincere or if they are disrespectful. A person who is disrespectful may well just end up causing trouble one way or the other even if the teacher tries to be polite and accomodate them. I can fully understand why some teachers might not respond too cordially to a disrespectful person. If someone is serious about trying to get a teacher to demonstrate some techniques to them, being very respectful and polite and friendly would probably be a good start.

 

So when did you ask Mr. Phillips if he would be willing to show you some of his techniques?

 

Regarding videos. I think one can't really judge a master's level by such things as most masters really hold back when demonstrating on students and guests, as people could easily get hurt if the master really released their force. The videos you see on the net are mostly just for demonstration purposes to give the general idea of what can be done, and the master will often demonstrate the way they want the student to practice the movement and not necessarily the way the master would actually do the movement themself, which may well contain much less obvious movement. Just thought I'd add that as an aside as trying to judge a teacher's level of attainment from demonstrations or instructional videos with students or associates doesn't really make sense to me.

[dawei]

I think the fact is, he is not hiding himself. If you want to go to him, I would think he does not stop this. There may not be a purely scientific way to measure it but YOU can go and measure it yourself, with your BODY. Then go to another person and another person. Or once there, then ask a few people outside his 'fold' to participate.

 

There are a few ways to truly get to the bottom of this but it does not happen by requiring people to come to you. If you question them, you'll likely have to go to them.

 

I will go out on a long limb here and offer something: I would be willing to travel to such places with other folks if it was pre-planned, meet my schedule or was closer to me.

 

I think the point of this thread has a lot of merit but let's not make it just a witch hunt. Let's seek out confirmation in as objective a way as is possible. But for some of us, we already have had this experience and confirmation. It does not mean that everyone out there who touts it can do it; and questioning should occur on some level.

[Stigweard]

I think the fact is, he is not hiding himself. If you want to go to him, I would think he does not stop this. There may not be a purely scientific way to measure it but YOU can go and measure it yourself, with your BODY. Then go to another person and another person. Or once there, then ask a few people outside his 'fold' to participate.

 

There are a few ways to truly get to the bottom of this but it does not happen by requiring people to come to you. If you question them, you'll likely have to go to them.

 

I will go out on a long limb here and offer something: I would be willing to travel to such places with other folks if it was pre-planned, meet my schedule or was closer to me.

 

I think the point of this thread has a lot of merit but let's not make it just a witch hunt. Let's seek out confirmation in as objective a way as is possible. But for some of us, we already have had this experience and confirmation. It does not mean that everyone out there who touts it can do it; and questioning should occur on some level.

A balanced view which I agree with

[Stigweard]

I think one can't really judge a master's level by such things as most masters really hold back when demonstrating on students and guests, as people could easily get hurt if the master really released their force.

Ahh yes ... the ol' excuse of "we can't show it because we might hurt someone so we will only show it on our own students who have "trained" to receive it."

 

Yeah they used that one as well.

 

Oh and this one:

 

"I will participate in your experiment if you either pay me lots of money or make it a major media event."

 

>.<

[The Way Is Virtue]

What makes you think I haven't approached them directly? In fact I have asked Michael Phillips and others of his ilk directly to either show demonstrations of him using his "Fa Jin" in full contact or consider engaging in the experiment in the OP.

 

Hi Stig. Well, I think we should be careful not to paint all teachers with the same broad brush, don't you think? Did you offer to visit Michael Phillips in person at his convenience and fully at your expense so he could demonstrate to you personally, and were you respectful about it? I don't know Michael Phillips so I can't comment on his skills, but it seems to me if a person is respectful and cordial enough you would be more likely to get some positive responses, assuming a person can make the time to accomodate you. Certainly there are some accomplished masters out there if a person looks around. I think how one approaches them can make a really big difference however. Respect and politeness are very important with many traditional teachers/masters.

 

One thing to keep in mind is the chances are if a real master shows some real force someone may well get seriously hurt. There is a reason that some masters will ony demonstrate certain things on students they know well, as they know how much force a student is capable of absorbing and they know if the student knows how to fall properly without getting hurt, and that sort of thing. Issuing force to strangers could end up with someone getting seriously hurt. However, if a person is sincere in learning and is willing to put in some time to get to know a teacher, I think most teachers will start to show things once they have a chance to get to know the student a bit if the student is sincere and respectful enough. They will still always have to hold back when demonstrating issuing force however, because if they released real force people would very likely get seriously hurt. That is just the nature of the matter.

 

I think if you are sincere in finding an accomplished internal arts master who can really issue internal force you will find one if you are patient and respectful enough. It all depends on approach. I think it is also worth keeping in mind that no one is under any obligation to show someone else anything if they don't want to. Taking a demanding or challenging attitude with someone you dppn;t know probably isn't going to go over too well with most anyone. So that makes it up to the person who wants to be shown something to be respectful and friendly enough and accomodate the person in whatever way they can that they want to show them something. On the other hand, if someone were making specific claims that they can throw anyone around at will with ease and they openly challenge anyone to try, then it would be reasonable to expect them to comply if you offer to take up their challenge. Not too many accomplished internal arts masters seem to be interested in such things however. Could it be because in order to cultivate internal skill to a high level you also have to learn to calm the heart and mind and cultivate spirit? Did you ever notice that taijiquan or other internal arts masters don't usually go around challenging other martial arts masters but instead often had to take challenges from other martial arts stylists who were out to try to make a name for themself? That does not seem to be the exception from what I have been able to gather. There may have been exceptions from time to time however.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Ahh yes ... the ol' excuse of "we can't show it because we might hurt someone so we will only show it on our own students who have "trained" to receive it."

Yeah they used that one as well.

Oh and this one:

"I will participate in your experiment if you either pay me lots of money or make it a major media event."

>.<

 

That's not an excuse, that's a reality. Most masters will demonstrate some of their abilities (while holding back real force) on students however once they get to know them somewhat. It all depends on the situation and a person's attitude. If you approach a master in person with respect and show genuine interest in learning you are much more likely to get hsown something. From what I can gather, all you have actually done is issue a theoretical challenge on some internet forums and seem to expect others to just drop everything and accomodate you? That isn't likely going to get you anywhere.

 

BTW, you keep referring to 'they' as if it is known who these people are you are talking about. I am not saying there are not people out there who exagerate their ability, but I do think there are real masters out there if a person is willing to put in the effort to seek them out and be respectful. A good place to start looking might be with some of Feng Zhiqiang's senior students. However, based on your demonstrated tendancy to ridicule and show disrespect for people you haven't even met I don't expect you will get a very receptive response. Then you can say you demanded that they go out of their way show you fajing and they said no. Well that just proves it's all fake, doesn't it?

Edited August 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Stigweard]

That's simply a 20th century phenomenon.

Probably latter half of the 20th century, in fact.

Taijiquan is a martial art. Martial arts were traditionally tested in combat.

If you lost a challenge match, you were out of business, injured, or dead, but that was a long time ago.

 

If you want to look at Taijiquan as a martial art, you cannot separate it from fighting.

Fa jin alone will not win a fight.

I'm quite certain of that.

[Stigweard]

I've done that effort and spent that money already. Don't even bother. They are fakes all these guys in the videos in this thread at least and a whole bunch of others. Some of them (the smart ones, I guess) just don't want to be tested (like Mr Phillips). Of course they have classic excuses like: Oh I practice only for health reason, oh you can ask such and such if you don't believe me or you can watch my videos etc....) None of them make any sense.

 

Why would you call yourself a "martial" artist if you are scared to show your fighting skill? You don't have to go any competition or anything like that all you have to do is a demo on a non-believer.

 

Oh no! but the grandmaster is already tired of proving to the nonbelievers and he is retired now. They are all tired and retired but there is not one single recorded proof of a "fajin" guy knocking out a regular boxer or smb like that.

But when it comes to film cheap tricks like the "spear in the throat" or break the stick against my chi belly - no problem - hundreds of hours of footage. Hundreds of useless "fajin" video demos on the internet and none of them against a non-student.

Oh and give me a break with the argument "closed door/big family secret" hidden dragon crouching tiger junk that's soooooo cheap and outdated

 

[Stigweard]

The Way Is Virtue,

 

Your words are very lovely but are laced with the supposition that my inquiry is disrespectful. Is it really?

 

All I am asking is the very straight-forward request for someone like Michael Phillips to demonstrate the sort of Fa Jin shown below either in full contact or in a scientific environment. Not to discredit or disrepute, but for the greater learning and credibility of Taijiquan as a martial art.

 

How hard is that?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk&feature=player_embedded

 

You talk about respect. Well how respectful is it for these teachers to charge big money for classes and workshops for a service where they cannot substantiate the claims they are making?? In Australia this is not just disrespectful to customers, its actually ILLEGAL to sell a product or service if you can't scientifically verify the claims you are making.

 

So you are saying that if I was "respectful" I should go study with one of these teachers with the blind faith that they can do what they claim, and spend the required amount of years and money cowtowing enough times so that they can bestow their beneficence upon me and eventually show me a personal demonstration.

 

Really?

 

How would you have felt if after all years in training you ended up like those in the videos I posted here:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19775-example-protocol-to-test-fa-jin-ability/page__view__findpost__p__280103

 

How pissed would you be discovering that you have just wasted 5 years of your life because you were "respectfully" following the master?

 

I call that a recipe for delusion and also a recipe for having your ass handed to you on the street. You see these poor suckers in the videos bouncing around like jackasses going "ohhh my teacher is sooo powerful he is the real deal". Like it or not but group hypnosis is a real phenomena and at best that is all that is going on in these demonstrations.

 

Remember the story, "The Emperor's New Clothes" ??

 

An Emperor who cares for nothing but his appearance and attire hires two tailors who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects, who play along with the pretense. Suddenly, a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

 

Tell me The Way Is Virtue, is the child being "disrespectful"? Or are they just pointing out the plain truth? If I followed your advice I would just go along with the mass delusion so that I didn't offend the high poobar.

 

[dawei]

All I am asking is the very straight-forward request for someone like Michael Phillips to demonstrate the sort of Fa Jin shown below either in full contact or in a scientific environment. Not to discredit or disrepute, but for the greater learning and credibility of Taijiquan as a martial art.

 

How hard is that?

To be honest to the 11th page request, although stated before and many comments before, let us bring an end to this; Neither Michael Phillips nor another of the many dozen Youtube examples you post are going to be flocking to your test lab. So it may be best to stop hurling questions about their coming to your test protocol.

 

I already offered to go as a part of evaluation tests, but you ignored any reply on that.

 

I think it is time to put up or... you decide. Let's visit Michael Phillips and test him. I will go with you. Just name a few dates that work for you. After that, we decide who is next to visit and test.

 

Added: There is a small chance I could bring someone who can truly test him and put him to shame... but again... it is up to you to schedule this.

Edited August 8, 2011 by dawei

[Stigweard]

To be honest to the 11th page request, although stated before and many comments before, let us bring an end to this; Neither Michael Phillips nor another of the many dozen Youtube examples you post are going to be flocking to your test lab. So it may be best to stop hurling questions about their coming to your test protocol.

 

I already offered to go as a part of evaluation tests, but you ignored any reply on that.

 

I think it is time to put up or... you decide. Let's visit Michael Phillips and test him. I will go with you. Just name a few dates that work for you. After that, we decide who is next to visit and test.

 

Added: There is a small chance I could bring someone who can truly test him and put him to shame... but again... it is up to you to schedule this.

Not ignored, just didn't get to in amongst the other stuff. Apologies if you have taken offense of my oversight.

 

In terms of visiting and evaluating, absolutely. I am in Oz though so I think there are a only a relatively small few hereabouts I can get to. I am planning to visit US in the next 18mths though.

 

In terms of no result from these efforts, well there is something starting to roll. Hopefully more will be revealed in the soonest of time.

 

You are in US right? Which part?

[Stigweard]

Here's an excellent article on Fa Jin as purely a physical ability trained and honed over many years:

 

How to Do Fa-Jing --Issuing Energy -- in Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua

 

Very much like ... +1

 

[dawei]

Not ignored, just didn't get to in amongst the other stuff. Apologies if you have taken offense of my oversight.

 

In terms of visiting and evaluating, absolutely. I am in Oz though so I think there are a only a relatively small few hereabouts I can get to. I am planning to visit US in the next 18mths though.

 

In terms of no result from these efforts, well there is something starting to roll. Hopefully more will be revealed in the soonest of time.

 

You are in US right? Which part?

Absolutely no offense. I am just for getting to the issue, once I am willing. I am in the US, but where? does not matter. I will travel anywhere for this.

 

I saw he was in NY. I can create a business reason to visit NY anytime. But 18 months is a bit distance window.

 

I wonder if there are others willing to go to NY, even this month? I really hate to delay anything if not needed.

[fiveelementtao]

Forgive me. I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been dealt with..

First off there is huge misunderstanding out there about what "Fa Jing" is.

 

There are at least four different types of energy strikes. (that I am aware of)

Fa Li (muscle strength)

Fa Jing (tendon strength)

Fa Qi (energy strength)

Fa Shen (Spirit Strikes)

 

The first kind can be done by any trained martial artist. Can be deadly but not that uncommon.

 

The second kind is what most people think is energy strikes. It is actually using the tendons to deliver energy blows. It is extremely effective and Qi energy is part of it, but it is useless without good body mechanics and grounding. If someone's posture is off, the technique won't work or they will only hurt themselves as Qi can rebound back on the person. I am willing to bet the guy in the video (assuming it is for real) is using tendon power not Qi power. (I could be wrong) It is very effective and can only be done by someone who has worked to loosen the tendons and knows how to send Qi out the hands through tendons.

 

The third kind is more powerful and more rare. But there is a misunderstanding about it also. demonstrations of Fa Qi look completely staged and ridiculous unless you are the one receiving it. I and my former teacher have tried to demonstrate Fa Qi on video and it always looked ridiculous. This is because people are expecting the recipient to fly backwards. If someone has true Fa Qi ability, the recipient will not move backwards but will fall (or most often) slump forward. What you see is the attacker striking the person or even slapping the person, you may hear a loud crack and the recipient falls forward. It looks really fake until you feel it for yourself. If you strike a heavy bag with Fa Qi, you may hear a slap but the bag will not move. If the bag moves, then it is not true Fa Qi. This is the kind of stuff that is most lethal in terms of Dim mak.

The fourth kind is the real type of energy strike that does not need one to touch the opponent and is very rare. I have only have very limited experience with this so I cannot intelligently comment on it.

 

So, Stig... I'm a little confused as to what your motive is. Do you want to learn Fa jing methods? Or do you need someone to prove it to you so you can then go and learn it? Do you want to disprove it? What is the real motive here? I know enough about you to know that you understand the value of a teacher and of humility in seeking to learn. But if someone recommends that you seek to verify these abilities by seeking out teachers who can teach this, you seem to say that means that you must give out all your money to frauds. I don't think demanding that this be proven to you before you are willing to seek out a teacher will get you very far. Any teacher who needs their ego stroked and succumbs to demands of proof is not someone I would recommend learning from. IME, Energy strikes cannot be mastered by someone with a heavy or materialistic mindset. I have seen it over and over again. The attitude of "prove it to me and I will let you teach me" will weigh you down and trap you in your left brain. Some things need to be approached with awe and respect. That has nothing to do with the teacher it is about the student. Also, IME, most people who demand "proof" are coming from a place of anger. And that anger will prohibit them understanding how to implement the technique. If you are serious about learning this, you will need to know this.

 

 

So, Stiggie, I applaud your determination to discover the truth about these things... if they are something you really want to learn, but the little I have read here in regards to your attitude in demanding proof about something that should rightfully be a spiritual attainment is ( I think) misguided understanding of the technique If you are seeking to disprove this stuff, hey... Look no further. There is mountains of evidence that can easily statistically disprove it's existence. If that is your motive, then just accept that it is not real and move on with your life. If this stuff is real, it is pure fluff and has no real worth in MA or Spirituality. Otherwise if you stay in the middle here You may just make yourself miserable. I have seen this happen too. People who are doubtful but want to be persuaded. Even if they DO experience it, after a day or two, their minds try to explain it away. If they can't either resolve their doubts or accept them, they end up obsessed with it on a physical level and it destroys their other training. I have seen this happen too. Perhaps the lesson is that teachers should have more humility and not post videos of this kind of stuff on the internet. It only seems to make others angry and cynical and foster spiritual insecurity...

my .02...With respect,

Mike

Edited August 8, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Stigweard]

Absolutely no offense. I am just for getting to the issue, once I am willing. I am in the US, but where? does not matter. I will travel anywhere for this.

 

I saw he was in NY. I can create a business reason to visit NY anytime. But 18 months is a bit distance window.

 

I wonder if there are others willing to go to NY, even this month? I really hate to delay anything if not needed.

Thanks for the initiative. What would have to be worked out is something that would fulfill a few basic requirements:

 

• It must be respectfully done. The intent is to gather research data not to go on a witchhunt. A bunch of chaps running in shouting "Show me what you can do" is obviously not going to be received overly well.
  
• It must be scientifically done, meaning it must conform as close as possible to the protocol in the OP. This protocol would be hard to fulfill in the "go and visit" format so adjustments need to be made. But it still must maintain enough objectivity to reasonably eliminate distortion. Specifically the items listed under Stipulations in the OP must be adhered to.
  
• It must be documented. Both video and written accounts of the visit.
  

 

OK ... awesome ... Dawei is in ... any other bums want to play ???

 

[on the path]

The Way Is Virtue,

 

Your words are very lovely but are laced with the supposition that my inquiry is disrespectful. Is it really?

 

All I am asking is the very straight-forward request for someone like Michael Phillips to demonstrate the sort of Fa Jin shown below either in full contact or in a scientific environment. Not to discredit or disrepute, but for the greater learning and credibility of Taijiquan as a martial art.

 

How hard is that?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk&feature=player_embedded

 

You talk about respect. Well how respectful is it for these teachers to charge big money for classes and workshops for a service where they cannot substantiate the claims they are making?? In Australia this is not just disrespectful to customers, its actually ILLEGAL to sell a product or service if you can't scientifically verify the claims you are making.

 

So you are saying that if I was "respectful" I should go study with one of these teachers with the blind faith that they can do what they claim, and spend the required amount of years and money cowtowing enough times so that they can bestow their beneficence upon me and eventually show me a personal demonstration.

 

Really?

 

How would you have felt if after all years in training you ended up like those in the videos I posted here:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19775-example-protocol-to-test-fa-jin-ability/page__view__findpost__p__280103

 

How pissed would you be discovering that you have just wasted 5 years of your life because you were "respectfully" following the master?

 

I call that a recipe for delusion and also a recipe for having your ass handed to you on the street. You see these poor suckers in the videos bouncing around like jackasses going "ohhh my teacher is sooo powerful he is the real deal". Like it or not but group hypnosis is a real phenomena and at best that is all that is going on in these demonstrations.

 

Remember the story, "The Emperor's New Clothes" ??

 

An Emperor who cares for nothing but his appearance and attire hires two tailors who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects, who play along with the pretense. Suddenly, a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

 

Tell me The Way Is Virtue, is the child being "disrespectful"? Or are they just pointing out the plain truth? If I followed your advice I would just go along with the mass delusion so that I didn't offend the high poobar.

 

 

 

Hi Stig watched this video,

 

don't bother wasting your time traveling to this man! He has no abilities in fa jin. I don't think I have great abilities in fa jin either, but many years ago I taught a qi gong class, my students questioned me about the credibility of qi. So I stacked up some heavy tables on the hall stage, stood in front of them, using only two fingers on the front table released my fa jin and moved them all backwards. I never used my torso, my spine or my legs to generate power. I then asked my students one by one to move one table backwards using their palms only. Some used all their strength and couldn't move one table, some manged to move the table by using their legs and torso. My point was made! This a good test of any fa jin abilities when using an inanimate object and not a person.

[Stigweard]

Forgive me. I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been dealt with..

First off there is huge misunderstanding out there about what "Fa Jing" is.

 

There are at least four different types of energy strikes. (that I am aware of)

Fa Li (muscle strength)

Fa Jing (tendon strength)

Fa Qi (energy strength)

Fa Shen (Spirit Strikes)

 

The first kind can be done by any trained martial artist. Can be deadly but not that uncommon.

 

The second kind is what most people think is energy strikes. It is actually using the tendons to deliver energy blows. It is extremely effective and Qi energy is part of it, but it is useless without good body mechanics and grounding. If someone's posture is off, the technique won't work or they will only hurt themselves as Qi can rebound back on the person. I am willing to bet the guy in the video (assuming it is for real) is using tendon power not Qi power. (I could be wrong) It is very effective and can only be done by someone who has worked to loosen the tendons and knows how to send Qi out the hands through tendons.

 

The third kind is more powerful and more rare. But there is a misunderstanding about it also. demonstrations of Fa Qi look completely staged and ridiculous unless you are the one receiving it. I and my former teacher have tried to demonstrate Fa Qi on video and it always looked ridiculous. This is because people are expecting the recipient to fly backwards. If someone has true Fa Qi ability, the recipient will not move backwards but will fall (or most often) slump forward. What you see is the attacker striking the person or even slapping the person, you may hear a loud crack and the recipient falls forward. It looks really fake until you feel it for yourself. If you strike a heavy bag with Fa Qi, you may hear a slap but the bag will not move. If the bag moves, then it is not true Fa Qi. This is the kind of stuff that is most lethal in terms of Dim mak.

The fourth kind is the real type of energy strike that does not need one to touch the opponent and is very rare. I have only have very limited experience with this so I cannot intelligently comment on it.

 

So, Stig... I'm a little confused as to what your motive is. Do you want to learn Fa jing methods? Or do you need someone to prove it to you so you can then go and learn it? Do you want to disprove it? What is the real motive here? I know enough about you to know that you understand the value of a teacher and of humility in seeking to learn. But if someone recommends that you seek to verify these abilities by seeking out teachers who can teach this, you seem to say that means that you must give out all your money to frauds. I don't think demanding that this be proven to you before you are willing to seek out a teacher will get you very far. Any teacher who needs their ego stroked and succumbs to demands of proof is not someone I would recommend learning from. IME, Energy strikes cannot be mastered by someone with a heavy or materialistic mindset. I have seen it over and over again. The attitude of "prove it to me and I will let you teach me" will weigh you down and trap you in your left brain. Some things need to be approached with awe and respect. That has nothing to do with the teacher it is about the student. Also, IME, most people who demand "proof" are coming from a place of anger. And that anger will prohibit them understanding how to implement the technique. If you are serious about learning this, you will need to know this.

 

 

So, Stiggie, I applaud your determination to discover the truth about these things... if they are something you really want to learn, but the little I have read here in regards to your attitude in demanding proof about something that should rightfully be a spiritual attainment is ( I think) misguided understanding of the technique If you are seeking to disprove this stuff, hey... Look no further. There is mountains of evidence that can easily statistically disprove it's existence. If that is your motive, then just accept that it is not real and move on with your life. If this stuff is real, it is pure fluff and has no real worth in MA or Spirituality. Otherwise if you stay in the middle here You may just make yourself miserable. I have seen this happen too. People who are doubtful but want to be persuaded. Even if they DO experience it, after a day or two, their minds try to explain it away. If they can't either resolve their doubts or accept them, they end up obsessed with it on a physical level and it destroys their other training. I have seen this happen too. Perhaps the lesson is that teachers should have more humility and not post videos of this kind of stuff on the internet. It only seems to make others angry and cynical and foster spiritual insecurity...

my .02...With respect,

Mike

Its responses like this that keeps me coming back to this place. Its taught me to trust confrontation, to trust turbulence because amazing stuff can emerge from the dust.

 

Look at the last posted video and you will see what, for the moment, I am focusing on. Now would you call this Fa Jin or Fa Qi in your books? Because these proponents are saying that it is Fa Jin but it is definitely verging on Fa Qi (again using your definitions).

 

Why am I doing this? Thanks for asking, thanks for making me reflect for a moment

 

Obviously there are a few reasons. But digging past the personal feelings that I obviously have on the matter, the prevalent motivation is "clarity".

 

Now you know me fairly well and you would have frequently seen me launch into a topic for the sole purpose of bouncing my thoughts off other people to gain a clearer picture. Maybe my view will be different by the end of the thread, maybe they wont. But at least I will have a clearer view on the whole picture because everyone is pitching in causing me to reflect on my view, just like your comments have.

 

So if we brought it all back to me, I am wanting clarity on this whole issue of fajin i.e. the fajin that these chaps are carrying on with. On a purely selfish level I am wanting to decide if that sort of training is something I want to engage in, but if it truly is just all BS, and nothing has convinced me otherwise thus far, then I will just keep on my merry way with my current training.

 

On a less selfish level I certainly would like to see some clarity out in the Taiji world around this. People are getting ripped off and suckered in daily and the whole mess really does give this fine tradition the smell of last weeks underwear.

 

So instead of all the ambiguousness and misinformation, I would just like to have some simple clarity that everyone can enjoy. And just me, or anyone for that matter, saying "Hey guys I felt it and it works" is simply not good enough.

 

Which brings me back to the question, can anyone please show this stuff in full contact combat or in a scientific environment?

 

If you can't then this sort of fajin is at best just a pointless waste of time.

 

Excuse my directness Mike, but could you pass the test in the OP with your skills?? If not, why not?

 

But I certainly have appreciated your comments as a stimulus to stop me for a second to review my thoughts.

 

[zerostao]

Forgive me. I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been dealt with..

First off there is huge misunderstanding out there about what "Fa Jing" is.

 

There are at least four different types of energy strikes. (that I am aware of)

Fa Li (muscle strength)

Fa Jing (tendon strength)

Fa Qi (energy strength)

Fa Shen (Spirit Strikes)

 

The first kind can be done by any trained martial artist. Can be deadly but not that uncommon.

 

The second kind is what most people think is energy strikes. It is actually using the tendons to deliver energy blows. It is extremely effective and Qi energy is part of it, but it is useless without good body mechanics and grounding. If someone's posture is off, the technique won't work or they will only hurt themselves as Qi can rebound back on the person. I am willing to bet the guy in the video (assuming it is for real) is using tendon power not Qi power. (I could be wrong) It is very effective and can only be done by someone who has worked to loosen the tendons and knows how to send Qi out the hands through tendons.

 

The third kind is more powerful and more rare. But there is a misunderstanding about it also. demonstrations of Fa Qi look completely staged and ridiculous unless you are the one receiving it. I and my former teacher have tried to demonstrate Fa Qi on video and it always looked ridiculous. This is because people are expecting the recipient to fly backwards. If someone has true Fa Qi ability, the recipient will not move backwards but will fall (or most often) slump forward. What you see is the attacker striking the person or even slapping the person, you may hear a loud crack and the recipient falls forward. It looks really fake until you feel it for yourself. If you strike a heavy bag with Fa Qi, you may hear a slap but the bag will not move. If the bag moves, then it is not true Fa Qi. This is the kind of stuff that is most lethal in terms of Dim mak.

The fourth kind is the real type of energy strike that does not need one to touch the opponent and is very rare. I have only have very limited experience with this so I cannot intelligently comment on it.

 

So, Stig... I'm a little confused as to what your motive is. Do you want to learn Fa jing methods? Or do you need someone to prove it to you so you can then go and learn it? Do you want to disprove it? What is the real motive here? I know enough about you to know that you understand the value of a teacher and of humility in seeking to learn. But if someone recommends that you seek to verify these abilities by seeking out teachers who can teach this, you seem to say that means that you must give out all your money to frauds. I don't think demanding that this be proven to you before you are willing to seek out a teacher will get you very far. Any teacher who needs their ego stroked and succumbs to demands of proof is not someone I would recommend learning from. IME, Energy strikes cannot be mastered by someone with a heavy or materialistic mindset. I have seen it over and over again. The attitude of "prove it to me and I will let you teach me" will weigh you down and trap you in your left brain. Some things need to be approached with awe and respect. That has nothing to do with the teacher it is about the student. Also, IME, most people who demand "proof" are coming from a place of anger. And that anger will prohibit them understanding how to implement the technique. If you are serious about learning this, you will need to know this.

 

 

So, Stiggie, I applaud your determination to discover the truth about these things... if they are something you really want to learn, but the little I have read here in regards to your attitude in demanding proof about something that should rightfully be a spiritual attainment is ( I think) misguided understanding of the technique If you are seeking to disprove this stuff, hey... Look no further. There is mountains of evidence that can easily statistically disprove it's existence. If that is your motive, then just accept that it is not real and move on with your life. If this stuff is real, it is pure fluff and has no real worth in MA or Spirituality. Otherwise if you stay in the middle here You may just make yourself miserable. I have seen this happen too. People who are doubtful but want to be persuaded. Even if they DO experience it, after a day or two, their minds try to explain it away. If they can't either resolve their doubts or accept them, they end up obsessed with it on a physical level and it destroys their other training. I have seen this happen too. Perhaps the lesson is that teachers should have more humility and not post videos of this kind of stuff on the internet. It only seems to make others angry and cynical and foster spiritual insecurity...

my .02...With respect,

Mike

i signed in , just for the reason the give this a +1.

[zerostao]

I've had the great honour of meeting Grandmaster Feng and being footswept by him when he demonstrated the correct use of 'energy' for me. Anyone who has been taught some of the techniques from his method should have no doubt about their effectiveness. It is designed to kill and maim-a true combat art. Combined with the neigong...

 

There is a very good video of him demonstrating on Japanese TV a few years back. He would have been in his 70's at the time I think.

 

 

On a similar level, the late, great, Wang Peisheng, head of the Beijing school of Wu taijian also had amazing ability. I never had the honour of meeting him, but have met a few people connected to his lineage. I had one teacher demonstrate the mechanics of this method. It is very effective at seemingly effortless power. The man was somewhat smaller and lighter than me, but was able to move me around using correct mechanics rather than muscle power.

 

This is a great demonstration by the grand master. He was in his 70's also at this time I believe, and had also survived nearly 20 years in a Chinese prison during the Cultural Revolution.

 

and this is excellent also +1

[goldisheavy]

Which brings me back to the question, can anyone please show this stuff in full contact combat or in a scientific environment?

 

If you can't then this sort of fajin is at best just a pointless waste of time.

 

I don't think every exercise is a waste of time if it doesn't have a martial application. A lot of the exercises are beneficial for learning about various aspects of our own minds, even if they cannot be directly and easily carried over into the combat application.

 

I think the main thing is to just be honest. If you're in the business of self-discovery, call it that. If you're in the business of combat readiness, then call it that, but also live up to it. If you claim both, then it's fair to investigate the combat readiness side of the endeavor.

 

So a really easy way out for many Taiji teachers is to simply not claim any combat benefits. Bring Taiji closer to the meditative experience and if any combat benefit arises from it, call it a fluke or a rare happening, whatever.

 

My impression of Michael Phillips is that he's never actually sparred with anyone for real. He's always demonstrating things against cooperative opponents. And hypnosis is a damn powerful powerful, and once again, powerful thing. I've been hypnotized before, so I know from personal experience that a skilled hypnotist can hijack one's mind without anyone noticing and only a bare minimum level of consent is necessary. Sometimes just being in the same room as the hypnotist demonstrates sufficient consent to get hypnotized.

 

But this brings me to another topic. Hypnosis can have real combat application. So just because something is hypnosis does not mean it's fake. The trick is to see how effective the hypnotic techniques are against uncooperative opponents. If they are effective, they should be considered real and effective.

 

Psychology is a huge part of combat. When we watch MMA matches being commented on by various commentators, they often talk about the mind game.

 

There are some things that are completely paranormal. For example, hypnosis doesn't work outside a sound-insulated room when the hypnotist is inside such room and the test subject is outside. But the chance of encountering paranormal events deeply depends on one's worldview. If you are a physicalist there is 0% chance of encountering paranormal events. In other words, the world generally reflects your own deeply engrained beliefs about reality back to you.

 

So if paranormal is what you want to experience, you have to take a personal initiative to invite it. You'd invite it in two ways: internally and externally. Internally you invite paranormal by changing your worldview to one within which paranormal events are no longer nonsensical, impossible, or contradictory to logic. Externally you invite it by treating paranormal with some degree of respect. You don't have to respect any specific teacher, but you should at least minimally respect the paranormal reality. And you don't have to prostrate yourself before the paranormal realities of life, so worshiping is not necessary and can actually hinder things. The best attitude is to treat it as real, but without an exaggerated hoo-haa type stuff.

 

If you go around challenging people to prove paranormal events to you, that's not the right attitude to invite it. Paranormal events are voluntary. Physicalist lifestyle is also voluntary. Someone who leads a deeply paranormal life can change the mindset to a physicalist one and the paranormal events will stop. And vice versa. You can embrace the mindset that will unleash the paranormal. It's all voluntary and intentional.

Edited August 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[The Way Is Virtue]

The Way Is Virtue,

Your words are very lovely but are laced with the supposition that my inquiry is disrespectful. Is it really?

 

Hi Stig. I clearly didn't say "your inquiry was disrespectful". I said that declaring teachers fakes without so much as even meeting with them and spending some time with them is very disrespectful. I'll say it again. In my opinion, internal skill is not obvious from just viewing a video demo, so passing judgement on internal skill based on a video doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. At lower levels fajin may use more obvious force, but at higher levels it is not so obvious. I think you do understand what I am saying though because I think it is a straight forward enough concept.

 

All I am asking is the very straight-forward request for someone like Michael Phillips to demonstrate the sort of Fa Jin shown below either in full contact or in a scientific environment. Not to discredit or disrepute, but for the greater learning and credibility of Taijiquan as a martial art.

How hard is that?

 

So, you command and they jump, eh? No one is under any obligation to show you anything, Stig. I notice you didn't answer my question about whether you offered to personally travel to anyone and accomodate them at their convenience to give you a personal demonstration? That would be basic courtesy. Then you could personally assess in person whether they had any real skill. Seems simple enough.

 

You talk about respect. Well how respectful is it for these teachers to charge big money for classes and workshops for a service where they cannot substantiate the claims they are making?? In Australia this is not just disrespectful to customers, its actually ILLEGAL to sell a product or service if you can't scientifically verify the claims you are making.

 

So you are saying that if I was "respectful" I should go study with one of these teachers with the blind faith that they can do what they claim, and spend the required amount of years and money cowtowing enough times so that they can bestow their beneficence upon me and eventually show me a personal demonstration.

 

Really?

How would you have felt if after all years in training you ended up like those in the videos I posted here:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19775-example-protocol-to-test-fa-jin-ability/page__view__findpost__p__280103

 

How pissed would you be discovering that you have just wasted 5 years of your life because you were "respectfully" following the master?

 

I wouldn't be pissed because I would go and meet a teacher in person and spend some time with them and judge for myself whether I wanted to learn from them or not. One doesn't have to spend years. Attending a workshop or making a short visit for a few days and such is usually good enough. If they weren't what I was looking for I would move on. Seems simple enough. If you need proof and a teacher doesn't want to show you anything in person then you can simply move on. You keep talking about these mysterious 'they' who do things like charge lots of money for services they can't substantiate. This is not some cohesive group of people who are all the same. They are all individuals with different backgrounds and different levels of experience. Making sweeping generalizations like you are making and using that as a basis to call them all fakes makes no sense.

 

I'll say it again. I think it is very disrespectful to be slinging mud at teachers you have not met and spent any real time with. Again, pretty straight forward. If someone doesn't want to show you anything then the best you can say is you don't know whether they can do what they claim. If someone is willing to show you something and you find their skills lacking, then you can say you personally find their skills lacking. Again, pretty straight forward. I don't see the point of belaboring this any further. I don't think what I am saying is unreasonable.

[orb]

To be honest to the 11th page request, although stated before and many comments before, let us bring an end to this; Neither Michael Phillips nor another of the many dozen Youtube examples you post are going to be flocking to your test lab. So it may be best to stop hurling questions about their coming to your test protocol.

 

I already offered to go as a part of evaluation tests, but you ignored any reply on that.

 

I think it is time to put up or... you decide. Let's visit Michael Phillips and test him. I will go with you. Just name a few dates that work for you. After that, we decide who is next to visit and test.

 

Added: There is a small chance I could bring someone who can truly test him and put him to shame... but again... it is up to you to schedule this.

 

Please take me with you to M Phillips, I will even pay for your trip and I will be respectfull to the guy even if he is a fake!. Please let me know how can I get a demo from M Phillips.

 

Thank you.

[orb]

So Feng Ziqiang, Huang Sheng Shyan (deceased now, I believe) and Zhu Datong are all fakes? Seriously? All three of these masters are/were highly respected internal martial arts masters. BTW, for traditional teachers, if one approaches them very respectfully and asks them politely if they can find some time to demonstrate some of their skills on you, if you are respectful enough and they think you are have achieved enough martial arts ability to know how to fall without getting hurt too easily they might ask a senior student to show you some things, or if they are not too busy and they find you likeable and respectful enough they might even personally show you some things themselves as well. Some may wait till they get to know you better first, so you may have to hanfg around for some time before they are comfortable enough wioth you to show you something. Traditionally one might not even be given the opportunity to approach the master directly without first being introduced by a close student to the master. Nowadays things have started to become less formal however with some of the newer gerneration teachers. However, most anyone may not respond too cordially if they see that someone is not really sincere or if they are disrespectful. A person who is disrespectful may well just end up causing trouble one way or the other even if the teacher tries to be polite and accomodate them. I can fully understand why some teachers might not respond too cordially to a disrespectful person. If someone is serious about trying to get a teacher to demonstrate some techniques to them, being very respectful and polite and friendly would probably be a good start.

 

So when did you ask Mr. Phillips if he would be willing to show you some of his techniques?

 

Regarding videos. I think one can't really judge a master's level by such things as most masters really hold back when demonstrating on students and guests, as people could easily get hurt if the master really released their force. The videos you see on the net are mostly just for demonstration purposes to give the general idea of what can be done, and the master will often demonstrate the way they want the student to practice the movement and not necessarily the way the master would actually do the movement themself, which may well contain much less obvious movement. Just thought I'd add that as an aside as trying to judge a teacher's level of attainment from demonstrations or instructional videos with students or associates doesn't really make sense to me.

 

 

You know I would rather get hurt for real then praticipate in this exchange of fairy-tale online forever. Is there a master that is willing to hurt me with his fajin because I would pay him for that!

And don't get me wrong just because a guy is fake it doesn't mean that he is necessarily evil. Some people don't even know they are fakes and they really believe in their own BS.

I believe Max Christensen is a very good example. He is a very nice individual that is serious about his practice and doesn't even charge much for his teaching - but in my opinion he convinced himself of something that he never really tested himself of and really believes in it. He is a victim of his own imagination - kinda like Michael Jackson.

Check it out...

I find this fascinating!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLdYEpKkByg

 

And I believe the other "masters" in the videos are all the same they just didn't take the time to stage it as much...