Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[goldisheavy]

Another definition is not "understandable in terms of known scientific laws".

Maybe more like a little old lady lifting a car to save a child. A one time occurrence

no training involved.

Anyway i guess i missed your idea of paranormal. That's the mind for you

It's our nature to be skeptical and here we are in our heads again.

 

Good point and I agree. But from this point of view quantum mechanics effects would be considered paranormal in the 19th century.

Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Wells]

Coal is denser and harder than wood. Diamond is even denser and even harder than coal.

 

Shen on the other hand is more like space. Some would say it's insubstantial.

 

So shen is like space. Qi is very subtle and can only be felt privately in the private space, and jing is something that's dense enough to become public and can be felt by people other than the originator.

 

Here's what I found after a quick search:

As far as I understand now, in Taichi the words Chi, Jing and Shen have several meanings.

They don't only describe what your energy IS (concerning density and vibration rate) but also what your energy can do, according to it's (and your) level of development:

"Chi" means the natural state of your life energy.

"Jing" means that your life energy can affect other organisms and can be projected by touch.

"Shen" means that your life energy can be projected through space.

 

Chinese words always have several meanings. Shen can also mean a bodyless being (ghost), your aura (fine energy) around your body,...

Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black

[goldisheavy]

As far as I understand now, in Taichi the words Chi, Jing and Shen have several meanings.

They don't only describe what your energy IS (concerning density and vibration rate) but also what your energy can do, according to it's (and your) level of development:

"Chi" means the natural state of your life energy.

"Jing" means that your life energy can affect other organisms and can be projected by touch.

"Shen" means that your life energy can be projected through space.

 

Interesting.

 

How do you explain the different ways of using these terms? Is it a result of various philosophical splits in the Daoist community and its freewheeling spirit? Is it something else?

[Wells]

Interesting.

 

How do you explain the different ways of using these terms? Is it a result of various philosophical splits in the Daoist community and its freewheeling spirit? Is it something else?

Chinese terms always have several meanings. Jing can also mean sperm, extreme, essence,....

As I added to my last comment: Shen can also mean the fine energy around your body (aura), a ghost (bodyless being), your "fighting morale"...

It depends on the context.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black

[goldisheavy]

Chinese terms always have several meanings. Jing can also mean sperm, extreme, essence,....

As I added to my last comment: Shen can also mean the fine energy around your body (aura), a ghost (bodyless being), your "fighting morale"...

It depends on the context.

 

OK, but when you're talking about transforming one into the other, isn't that more or less one and the same meaning?

 

So when people talk about transforming or purifying the three treasures, do they possibly mean very different things?

[Wells]

OK, but when you're talking about transforming one into the other, isn't that more or less one and the same meaning?

 

So when people talk about transforming or purifying the three treasures, do they possibly mean very different things?

I can only tell you my personal opinion:

Temple Style Taichi is the original Taoist system.

All the other systems I ever heard about are flawed and so are their insights and methods.

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

I can only tell you my personal opinion:

Temple Style Taichi is the original Taoist system.

All the other systems I ever heard about are flawed and so are their insights and methods.

 

Seriously??

Edited August 9, 2011 by Stigweard

[Stigweard]

+1 - same offer stands if you're ever in Baltimore.

I'm a born skeptic and cynic and my teacher and his son are the real deal (as are some of our senior students and instructors)

Officially going on my travel itinerary

[zerostao]

"Moment to moment awareness of the total picture comes not in sequence but all at once, and changes moment to moment also in its totality. If you perceive its totality, a pattern therein, and anticipate changes of this pattern because you understand the pattern and know what kind of changes it leads to, this "intercepts" any new change before it occurs -- that's one psychophysical component of it, weighed toward "psycho," but then you can redistribute the weight of "intercept" toward more "physical" -- i.e. when all of the prerequisites are embodied, all oncoming force can be transmitted down the skeletal structure to the legs and then to the ground and under the opponent's root (if he has any, or else under the unrooted structure which is oh so much easier to send flying ). So you intercept his onslaught and uproot him with his own force without having spent any of your own. That's when they go boink effortlessly when it's real, and that's what they're trying to imitate when it's not.

 

Taomeow, i like this. i tend to stay on the "psycho" side of it

i know what you are referring to in the onslaught part. but i dont call that intercepting, i call that returning his force or jin back to him. and jin

comes in many flavors and levels. the intercepting i am talking about is , your,

"before it occurs"

 

templetao, you got my attention with

What it felt like to me was an electromagnetic force pushed me back my bones vibrated heavily as i was pushed back and i felt very electric as this magnetic force buzzed me back.

 

dawei "Imagine that with energy infiltration or penetration. Have you ever felt that attack you? " yeppers and this also comes in different levels and flavors. much to do with intent.

"IMO, you can think how martial artist intercepts (or deflects or side steps) a punch." for some odd and un-explained reason, i always find myself behind the other guy.

 

 

and again templetao

"So if i were to give a lesson in distance power I would do it like a master and i would demonstrate the deeper meaning of projecting."

is this something you are willing to discuss?

 

and i totally agree with

How can you be at true peace when the world you live in screams in pain.

 

The taoist arts is a gift to man because man was sick, suffering, and lost their way. if this wasnt the case then man would not need taoist arts.

 

i wanted to add this from chapter 71 TTC

Knowing ignorance is strength.

Ignoring knowledge is sickness.

 

If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick.

The sage is not sick because he is sick of sickness.

Therefore he is not sick.

 

Stigweard, i talked with a 30+ year tai chi player today about your idea. and he said

that maybe, something good will come from it, if you follow thru. he seemed to like your idea.

[Wells]

 

Seriously??

Just my personal opinion...

Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black

[goldisheavy]

I had an interesting friend here who was USA-born, learned Chinese and then learned various internal arts from old Chinese grandpas living around South California area. From his words, these grandpas couldn't even speak English and they only taught people who spoke Chinese. As far as the mindset goes, I'd describe my friend as a simultaneous and mindblowingly paradoxical mix of a physicalist and a deeply spiritual person who believed in realities beyond the physical ones. But when it came to martial arts, I think he was more of a physicalist and tended to view everything in terms of biomechanics. Anyway, my friend looked big, if not healthy, and he sparred with some MMA celebrities.

 

He never showed me anything like Fa Jin, but he did show me something very weird. He had me put my hand on his shoulder socket and then he proceeded to voluntarily move the shoulder bone out of its socket, without using the other hand or anything else. It was like his shoulder arm bone floated out of its socket. From my point of view it defied all my understanding about how the anatomy and body works. I didn't think what he was doing was physically possible, but there it was. And his explanation for why he needed that skill? It allows the arm to move faster with less friction, or something like that.

 

So there is no way around it. There is definitely some interesting weirdness being taught, but at the same time my friend said that if I just want to learn how to fight, I shouldn't waste my time with taichi. He said, learn boxing or kickboxing. It works every time. He said that the stuff he studies works too, but it takes decades of practice and there are roughly 20 fake teachers for every real teacher in his estimation. Basically he said that most people are fakes and that he tests all his would-be teachers by physically attacking them. I am not shitting you. And he said that all the real taichi teachers, including grandpas, would allow him to try to attack them.

 

So I tend to agree with what my friend said. Basically if fighting is what you want, taichi is a waste of time. The chance of fakes, plus the decades of study are not worth what you get for them. So it has to be a labor of love, or an obsession, but it cannot be a pragmatic pursuit for a fighter. All pragmatic fighters just go for jiu-jitsu and they are absolutely right to do so.

 

But yes, weird grandpas do exist and they do teach really strange stuff. That doesn't mean you have to be attracted to it. Let the shiny things shine, leave them alone, and move on with your life. Just because something is shiny doesn't mean you need to appropriate it.

Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

Stigweard, i talked with a 30+ year tai chi player today about your idea. and he said

that maybe, something good will come from it, if you follow thru. he seemed to like your idea.

 

Cheers for that.

 

[templetao]

edit.

Edited August 9, 2011 by templetao

[goldisheavy]

Here's how my friend explained the skill progression in internal arts vs external and why he said for most pragmatic people internal arts are not worth the gamble if combat effectiveness is your goal:

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

Stig, I think it is quite clear that I am not objecting to questons being asked or anyone checking different people out to see what their skill level is. I was objecting to implications by yourself and a few others here that certain people are fakes and such based solely at looking at a video. Enough said.

TWIV, and I think it is quite clear that I am not just on a witchhunt to expose fakes and frauds. All I am interested in is investigating and revealing the truth around this whole low/no touch Fa Jin phenomena. And in a way that satisfies both left and right brain functions.

 

Meaning that yes we can go and "feel it for ourselves" in a subjective sense. However, with the right pre-suggestions, people can convince themselves to believe anything. Some, as we have seen in these vids, quite literally "play out" the required effects to reinforce to themselves what they have chose to believe is true. And, once again shown by several of the vids I have posted, this belief comes terribly and sometimes painfully unraveled when the person tries to test their belief in the real world.

 

So for efficacy we also must see whether these beliefs are practical in the world of objective analysis. This means either putting it into the context of what these abilities are intended for, i.e. full contact combat, or developing ways to test skills within controlled scientific environments.

 

Now in terms of being disrespectful. There's two sides to that coin isn't there? If you are saying that it is disrespectful to the teacher for calling his abilities fake based only on an online video clip, isn't it therefore correspondingly "disrespectful" for these teachers and their groupies to be claiming their abilities are real based only on an online video clip?

 

If you are saying that the "right thing to do" on my side of the coin is for me to go see the teacher in question to find out for myself, wouldn't the "right thing to do" of their side of the coin, i.e. those who are making public claims, be to offer up themselves and their skills for the appropriate testing and analysis.

 

It's gotta go both ways my friend. You can't call me disrespectful for my behavior without simultaneously calling these teachers disrespectful for their behavior.

 

[zerostao]

Here's how my friend explained the skill progression in internal arts vs external and why he said for most pragmatic people internal arts are not worth the gamble if combat effectiveness is your goal:

 

what if the goal is to remain combat ready as one advances in years?

most external guys who did not do qigong also, dont fare to well at say 60?

there are exceptions, i would not have wanted to tangle with a 70 year old jack dempsey.(i dont wish to tangle with anyone, in fact)(but sometimes there is not a choice)

[goldisheavy]

what if the goal is to remain combat ready as one advances in years?

most external guys who did not do qigong also, dont fare to well at say 60?

there are exceptions, i would not have wanted to tangle with a 70 year old jack dempsey.(i dont wish to tangle with anyone, in fact)(but sometimes there is not a choice)

 

Hard martial arts tend to ruin the body. This was one of the main reasons why my friend got interested in internal arts to begin with. He practiced external arts and injured himself. Then he wanted to study internal arts and luckily for him, almost all his teachers also were healers. They knew not just how to massage and use qi for healing, but they even knew how to make salves/ointments and herbal remedies that could be put on the skin or taken internally and so on. So as he was talking to these Chinese grandpas they healed him up quite a bit from his old injuries.

 

But at the same time my friend said that unless I am absolutely ready to spend 20 years or even the rest of my life on it, and unless I learn Chinese and find those grandpas that will allow me to try to attack them, I shouldn't waste my time. So that's a whole lot of conditions. Learning Chinese seems to be an essential step. Without Chinese you don't get access to the community. Even with Chinese some of the teachers are racists who won't teach non-Chinese. Is it all worth the hassle?

 

If any of you are lucky to have a real teacher, then good for you. I'd say count your blessings and be happy.

 

As for me, I have very little interest in competing and beating people up. There is a ton of stuff I've been learning and from my point of view, there is no time to lose. I might still learn Chinese later on, but if I do, I will try to read ancient Daoist writings about immortality and cultivation and not use knowledge of Chinese to seek out ass-kicking grandpas. But that's just me. I'd rather spend time with a mountain hermit learning meditation than learn how to project deadly energy into the bodies of others. But then many of these people also teach how to heal, so that's cool.

 

To each his or her own. And as I said before, I am with Stig on this and I appreciate all the clarity we can get.

[Stigweard]

Here's how my friend explained the skill progression in internal arts vs external and why he said for most pragmatic people internal arts are not worth the gamble if combat effectiveness is your goal:

 

So based on this rationale, what would happen if you trained external and internal simultaneously?

 

[zerostao]

So based on this rationale, what would happen if you trained external and internal simultaneously?

 

Stig, very normal in fact, as i am betting you know/and do. but at some point along the way one realizes that the IMA/ims? player discovers that it is a much more efficient use of energy to be IMA rather than external. i used to play/live monkey style. looking back i wish it woulda been snake, dragon, or bird but i digress.

but some of these style especially the 3 i just mentioned are kinda a hard/soft combination. the main thing is now i am dragonish bgz. yeah i am blessed that i have a good health and a happy lifestyle and have the good fortune to hang out with birds of a feather. i do some tai chi, the same form you do. and some basic xingyi, just becoz it is fun , cool, useful, etc .i also imagine that mountain hermits or forest recluses can also kick ass like rare grandpas.

i disagree with the graph to some extent. 10 years for many i reckon. but some folks are more naturally gifted in the IMA aspects and at 4-6 years can be getting there.

some folks can never get there.

[doc benway]

[mYTHmAKER]

I will try to read ancient Daoist writings about immortality and cultivation and not use knowledge of Chinese to seek out ass-kicking grandpas. But that's just me. I'd rather spend time with a mountain hermit learning meditation than learn how to project deadly energy into the bodies of others. But then many of these people also teach how to heal, so that's cool.

 

 

Again it's not about kicking ass or projecting deadly energy.

It's all about being focused in the present moment (not dreaming of things to come or special powers)

where one is happy. Sounds a bit like meditation

 

So one seeks out a kick ass mountain hermit (figuratively speaking) to learn meditation

Is the hermit a better teacher because he resides on a mountain.

Most likely he/she only speaks Chinese.

To each his own. meditate now - someday may never come.

Edited August 10, 2011 by mYTHmAKER

[Stigweard]

[goldisheavy]

So based on this rationale, what would happen if you trained external and internal simultaneously?

 

 

I don't know. If these methods are compatible and don't each require your full attention, I think the results would be good. Also, many of these so-called internal people are deceptively strong with big muscles. What is that all about? So if my intuition is correct, some flavors of internal martial arts already include external aspects anyway.

[goldisheavy]

Again it's not about kicking ass or projecting deadly energy.

It's all about being focused in the present moment (not dreaming of things to come or special powers)

where one is happy. Sounds a bit like meditation

 

So one seeks out a kick ass mountain hermit (figuratively speaking) to learn meditation

Is the hermit a better teacher because he resides on a mountain.

Most likely he/she only speaks Chinese.

To each his own. meditate now - someday may never come.

 

I agree completely. But for many people kicking ass is an important part of martial arts. Many Chinese people practice taiji in the park for health benefits without even thinking about kicking ass. And these park people are not the reason for controversy.

 

What is taiji? Is it a health practice? Is it an enlightenment practice? Is it a way of fighting, i.e. martial art? All of the above? None of the above? Some of the above? I think a big part of the reason why threads like this popup and will continue to popup in the future is because there is no clear answer. If taiji was clearly positioned as a health practice, it would generate only a fraction of the current level of controversy.

Edited August 10, 2011 by goldisheavy