Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[goldisheavy]

i also imagine that mountain hermits or forest recluses can also kick ass like rare grandpas.

 

You might be right, but I imagine most daoist hermits really don't worry about kicking ass. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them didn't even know any martial arts in the formal sense. These people often live alone in small huts and they visit each other to talk as opposed to spar or fight. Becoming a hermit just to study martial arts is really an overkill in my opinion. It's like killing ants with nuclear bombs.

 

The grandpas I talked about live comfortably in USA. They have friends and family and they more or less have whatever they want, although their wants are modest from what I hear. They meet up with a bunch of their friends and practice. If you become a friend, they can call you on the phone at any hour of the day and ask that you show up some (random/strange) place to hang out or to practice. Sometimes they call because they want to get a ride to someplace. I think you can imagine what kind of grandpas they are. They're just like a good friend. They hang out and have fun with you and they can also teach you things and heal you up. And like in any friendship, sometimes they want you to do things for them. They live with people and they are happy that way.

 

When I heard my friend describe these people I realized they are true masters because they act as friends instead of as masters. They are very down to earth. It seems that all they want is friendship and not money. They are absolutely nothing like people who sell expensive courses on this forum. Not only do they not sell anything, but they are almost impossible to find. You'd have to be introduced to them through some Chinese people who live in the community. They don't hang up shingles. They don't advertise. They don't have websites.

 

i disagree with the graph to some extent. 10 years for many i reckon. but some folks are more naturally gifted in the IMA aspects and at 4-6 years can be getting there.

some folks can never get there.

 

I agree with you. The graph is not meant to be taken literally.

Edited August 10, 2011 by goldisheavy

[doc benway]

[Mal]

[goldisheavy]

A few more words regarding 發 Fā 勁 Jìn from my personal experience.

Sorry if I sound opinionated but, when it comes to Taijiquan, I am (some might say I always am... )

 

Disagree if you choose, no matter to me. I posted some of this in a different thread and hopefully it will help demystify this for some of you who aren't attached to the ideas of supernatural power and magic.

 

If you want to understand Taijiquan you need to do two things, train long and hard with a credible master, and compare your discoveries with what is written in the Classics. If what you are doing is consistent with the Classics, it is Taijiquan because those writings are what defines the art, ultimately. If what you are doing is not consistent with the Classics, you have deviated from Taijiquan.

 

When it comes to Taijiquan as it applies to combat, there are a few critical verses in the Classics that need to be understood. None is more basic and important and germain to a discussion of Fa jin than the saying Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 粘 黏 連 隨 不 丟 頂. This literally means stick, adhere, connect, follow, don't separate or go against. What this means is that if you were to watch a skilled taiji master in combat, once their opponent attacked, they would stick to them like flypaper until finishing them off.

 

This makes sense when fighting empty-handed. Does this principle still apply when both opponents use swords? Or is taiji weapon form something completely different and separate from the fist form?

 

It ain't magic, it's physics, proper training, and lot's of practice.

Unless of course you prefer magic...

That's for people who don't want to do the work.

If you like to fantasize about magical powers, that's fine but it ain't going to improve your Taijiquan skills

 

Peace

 

Some people like to fantasize about magical powers. Others prefer to fantasize about physical reality. Which one is more lazy depends on many factors.

Edited August 10, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Andrei]

All you need to do is look at the physics. Force is mass x acceleration. If the distance over which the mass (striking surface) is being accelerated is reduced, that has to be compensated for by increasing velocity / decreasing time - no other way. So in Fa Jin, we are very relaxed until the instant of Fa (issuing), which needs to be done with great velocity and in the shortest time possible. This is what accounts for the explosive nature. The movement is so short and fast and the relaxation is so important up to the last instant, that it seems to come out of nowhere, that's why the character Fa is used. And the need for relaxation is simply because if there is any muscle tension it works against the speed. The other important components are proper posture and coordination because if you are not rooted, you won't have a stable base which is so important because you are so close to your opponent that you must displace their center of gravity. The coordination is critical because the body must be rigid but only for the instant of impact, otherwise it must be fully relaxed.

 

It ain't magic, it's physics, proper training, and lot's of practice.

 

I agree about that but it's incomplete. Actually the laws of physics are a little more complicated.

 

For any Force in this Universe you have something like this:

 

F=M.a-c.V+K.x

 

which means mass x acceleration plus damping(friction) x speed plus elastic constant x displacement

 

when you are relaxed you have minimum friction which means no damping

when you tense your muscles you have maximum of elastic constant

when you are big you have a lot of inertia

 

so when a "master" is issuing his force into the "student" body the equation is like that:

 

 

Force = (a lot of master body mass) x (acceleration) plus (very little friction) x speed (which is not plus is minus because the force is weakened by friction) plus (a sudden tensing of the muscles in the last instant that gives a huge elastic constant) x displacement => goes into the "student" body which usually has a small mass and receives a huge acceleration, it has a huge internal friction ant the energy is not damped and have a very weak elastic constant - which is considered "lack of grounding" - from where you can calculate the displacement - ten feet or so as shown in all fajing videos

 

Q.E.D

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2011 by steam

[The Way Is Virtue]

This brings us to Fa Jin. If I am to follow the Classics and stay stuck to my opponent at all times, how am I to hit them? As soon as I cock back my fist to throw a powerful punch - I've broken the rule Bu Diu, and several of the others.

Nah. You seem to be overlooking that you are more than just one fist or one foot or one shoulder, etc.

We are talking about taijiquan, with the emphasis on taiji and yin and yang.

While my left hand is empty and leading the attackers force off my center into my left foot, my right hand can move forward to push or strike.

While my upper back is leading the attackers force off my center into my right foot, my lower left leg can be stepping back to the left and my left elbow swinging towards the attacker's abdomen, etc. etc., etc. Yin and yang, substantial and insubstantial, all working together as one.

 

All you need to do is look at the physics. Force is mass x acceleration. If the distance over which the mass (striking surface) is being accelerated is reduced, that has to be compensated for by increasing velocity / decreasing time - no other way. So in Fa Jin, we are very relaxed until the instant of Fa (issuing), which needs to be done with great velocity and in the shortest time possible. This is what accounts for the explosive nature. The movement is so short and fast and the relaxation is so important up to the last instant, that it seems to come out of nowhere, that's why the character Fa is used. And the need for relaxation is simply because if there is any muscle tension it works against the speed. The other important components are proper posture and coordination because if you are not rooted, you won't have a stable base which is so important because you are so close to your opponent that you must displace their center of gravity. The coordination is critical because the body must be rigid but only for the instant of impact, otherwise it must be fully relaxed.

It ain't magic, it's physics, proper training, and lot's of practice.

Unless of course you prefer magic...

That's for people who don't want to do the work.

If you like to fantasize about magical powers, that's fine but it ain't going to improve your Taijiquan skills

Peace

 

As I understand the theory, there are many ways to fajin and different levels of attainment as well. You have neglected to mention generating force using internal energy (qi), which is the foundation of the internal martial arts. We relax to allow the unrestricted flow of qi in our body and use yi to direct the qi in synchronization with our movement. Yi and qi combine as one and the body follows. This is the foundation of an internal art. Without this foundation it is not an internal art. Of course there are different levels of attainment and you certainly can't use internal energy to generate force if you haven't developed much internal energy yet and learned the proper use of yi, relaxation, differentiating yin and yang, alignment, etc. The lower levels of achievement will show much more obvious force (mainly physics and body mechanics) and the higher levels will show much less obvious force. I almost get the feeling that some are wanting to remove the foundational internal energy cultivation aspect from taijiquan. So, the qi is only cultivated to improve health or to strengthen muscles then and qi is useless in a self defenser application? It is all only physics and mechanics? Hmmm, some of you must be reading different internal arts classics than the ones I have read. This is all just my own point of view of course based on my own current limited understanding, but I just thought I would add my two cent's worth to this.

Best wishes...

[doc benway]

This makes sense when fighting empty-handed. Does this principle still apply when both opponents use swords? Or is taiji weapon form something completely different and separate from the fist form?

Similar principles - you stick to the opponent's sword or staff then when an opportunity arises, create an opening and attack. With the sword there has to be some separation before the cut or thrust, otherwise you'll be deflected by the opponent's guard.

All that said, I've never been in a sword fight (other than kendo) and probably never will.

 

Some people like to fantasize about magical powers. Others prefer to fantasize about physical reality. Which one is more lazy depends on many factors.

Good point!

At least the physical forces can be demonstrated with some reproducibility and predictability.

But that doesn't stop us from corruption...

 

 

 

I agree about that but it's incomplete. Actually the laws of physics are a little more complicated.

 

For any Force in this Universe you have something like this:

 

F=M.a-c.V+K.x

 

which means mass x acceleration plus damping(friction) x speed plus elastic constant x displacement

 

when you are relaxed you have minimum friction which means no damping

when you tense your muscles you have maximum of elastic constant

when you are big you have a lot of inertia

 

so when a "master" is issuing his force into the "student" body the equation is like that:

 

 

Force = (a lot of master body mass) x (acceleration) plus (very little friction) x speed (which is not plus is minus because the force is weakened by friction) plus (a sudden tensing of the muscles in the last instant that gives a huge elastic constant) x displacement => goes into the "student" body which usually has a small mass and receives a huge acceleration, it has a huge internal friction ant the energy is not damped and have a very weak elastic constant - which is considered "lack of grounding" - from where you can calculate the displacement - ten feet or so as shown in all fajing videos

 

Q.E.D

 

 

Wow! Excellent analysis, well beyond my knowledge of physics.

 

Thanks for that elaboration - the elastic component is very interesting but I'll have to study that to really understand it. Is it correct to say that as the elasticity becomes more firm, the constant is higher? If I'm not mistaken, the fact that the student tenses increases his elastic constant enhancing the force transfer. This would explain why you see the students either locking their elbows or pushing off to be bounced by their teacher (you see this in every video). It also explains why our Fa Jin is more effective when our opponent is tense. Conversely, it accounts for the fact that yielding neutralizes the force so dramatically.

 

I once had a self-proclaimed "master" try to demonstrate fa jin type force on me at a casual gathering of some friends at a tournament. He sort of put me on the spot without asking my permission. I don't particularly like the guy and his approach was arrogant and disrespectful (not that my ego played any part.... ).

So I just softened and absorbed his Fa each time he tried to attack. He looked pretty sad... He got frustrated and asked why I was being so "difficult" - I just laughed and he gave up.

[Stigweard]

When it comes to Taijiquan as it applies to combat, there are a few critical verses in the Classics that need to be understood. None is more basic and important and germain to a discussion of Fa jin than the saying Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 粘 黏 連 隨 不 丟 頂. This literally means stick, adhere, connect, follow, don't separate or go against. What this means is that if you were to watch a skilled taiji master in combat, once their opponent attacked, they would stick to them like flypaper until finishing them off. Perhaps they would break off if they realized they were at a disadvantage but the idea is to stick and stay connected to your opponent or yield as they take the offensive and allow them to fall into void. But the bottom line is you are always in contact. So when you see these "taiji masters" throwing punches and kicks like Master Wong earlier in this thread, that deviates from the principles outlined in the classics, it may be good Gong Fu, but it ain't a masterful demonstration of Taijiquan. This is why pushing hands is so widely emphasized in Taijiquan training.

 

This brings us to Fa Jin. If I am to follow the Classics and stay stuck to my opponent at all times, how am I to hit them? As soon as I cock back my fist to throw a powerful punch - I've broken the rule Bu Diu, and several of the others. So Taijiquan teaches a method to generate power that is comparable (we can debate whether it's more or less, it doesn't matter) to the power of a full blown haymaker but without breaking contact - over a distance of an inch or three. This is the nature and value of Fa Jin. It is only used when I am already touching my opponent. No other way. It does not exist when there is no contact because that already has violated the principle of Bu Diu. And the effect of the strike is somewhat different (more penetrating) simply because force is not being absorbed by the surface impact, since I'm already touching there is a more penetrating component to the force. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that it's more damaging (an Earnie Shavers right cross would probably do more damage than the best Fa Jin strike most Chinese masters could master but that's an irrelevant matter of opinion...)

Beautiful Steve, a good thing I don't have a daily limit on hitting the +1 button

 

This is another area that I would dispute the eficacy of the whole push and bounce opponents away thing. It violates the whole principle of Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 粘 黏 連 隨 不 丟 頂.

 

From working a few doors I have drilled it into my head that I have to assume that my opponent might be carrying a knife. The very last thing I want to do is give him the opportunity to pull that knife, therefore I want to finish an opponent where he stands and him ending up on the ground at my feet. I do not want to push him away giving him the chance to reset or pull that knife.

 

So fajin in my training is short-wave rather than long-wave, which sounds pretty much the same as your folks are doing. It is meant to break the core structure of opponent where they stand, not bounce them away. And its not meant to be the be all and end all of techniques, just meant to disrupt the structure and set up for other applications. Hurts like hell though when you get it right, my students have buckled me on more than one occaision when they hit a sweet spot.

 

In terms of keeping contact, as long as one hand is in contact listening then the other can be coiling for fajin.

 

Nice to hear more of your training Steve, always instructive

[dwai]

For a very refreshing "insider's" materialistic view of tai chi and fa jin, please read josh waitzkin's excellent book on chess and tai chi titled "the art of learning"....while i don't agree with the pure biomechanics explanation, i do respect the guy...an excellenf chess player and william cc chen's student

[doc benway]

Nah. You seem to be overlooking that you are more than just one fist or one foot or one shoulder, etc.

We are talking about taijiquan, with the emphasis on taiji and yin and yang.

While my left hand is empty and leading the attackers force off my center into my left foot, my right hand can move forward to push or strike.

While my upper back is leading the attackers force off my center into my right foot, my lower left leg can be stepping back to the left and my left elbow swinging towards the attacker's abdomen, etc. etc., etc. Yin and yang, substantial and insubstantial, all working together as one.

Nope, not overlooking any of that. You can use both arms and both legs and still be consistent with Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. No problem at all. I didn't say that every part of my body is contact with every part of my opponents body at every instant. We're talking connection on multiple levels - physical, energetic, emotional, psychological.

 

 

As I understand the theory, there are many ways to fajin and different levels of attainment as well. You have neglected to mention generating force using internal energy (qi), which is the foundation of the internal martial arts. We relax to allow the unrestricted flow of qi in our body and use yi to direct the qi in synchronization with our movement. Yi and qi combine as one and the body follows. This is the foundation of an internal art. Without this foundation it is not an internal art. Of course there are different levels of attainment and you certainly can't use internal energy to generate force if you haven't developed much internal energy yet and learned the proper use of yi, relaxation, differentiating yin and yang, alignment, etc. The lower levels of achievement will show much more obvious force (mainly physics and body mechanics) and the higher levels will show much less obvious force. I almost get the feeling that some are wanting to remove the foundational internal energy cultivation aspect from taijiquan. So, the qi is only cultivated to improve health or to strengthen muscles then and qi is useless in a self defenser application? It is all only physics and mechanics? Hmmm, some of you must be reading different internal arts classics than the ones I have read. This is all just my own point of view of course based on my own current limited understanding, but I just thought I would add my two cent's worth to this.

Best wishes...

Many levels of attainment certainly. The basic mechanics of generating Fa Jin is the same.

I am not at all neglecting Qi and Yi. I simply don't think it's necessary to invoke an undefinable and completely intangible quantity to explain Fa Jin. This was not meant to be a primer on how to develop skill in Fa Jin, just a brief explanation of what it is for those who may not cultivate or believe in Qi and for those who are willing to look at it without some magical mysterious element. Qi is always already there. You don't need to cultivate it for it to be present. if it were not there you would not be alive. Cultivation allows you to become more acutely and totally aware of it and what it is and how it operates but it is not in any way outside of the properties of physics that science works with. Just a different paradigm used to describe the same reality.

 

From a common sense perspective, cultivating Qi in order to produce Fa Jin is beneficial in many ways. The practices used to cultivate Qi develop skill in muscular relaxation without total loss of structure (Song). Furthermore, the process leads to tranquility of mind and clarification and accuracy of mind intent, Yi. A deeper connection and coordination between awareness and physical form, structure, and movement develop. And a host of other benefits that can be described.

 

If I am skillful at Song and using the Yi and I am tranquil, I will increase velocity, improve coordination, and minimize friction thus optimizing the physical parameters of the strike. I personally have a mature and consistent practice in cultivating Jing, converting to "Qi", converting to "Shen" and "Void" and much more esoteric and complicated Daoist meditation techniques that I won't discuss. I am very comfortable working with these concepts and have a reasonable grasp of them from a practical and esoteric point of view. Nevertheless, there is no reason to invoke these undefinable and unquantifiable parameters for the non-cultivator to see what's happening.

 

I'll go so far as to say that I can (and have) teach someone how to generate pretty powerful Fa Jin without ever mentioning to them the word Qi. I talk very little about Qi in my instruction except for the small percentage of more advance students who want to get into that. It's more a distraction to most than a benefit when it comes to learning and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua. Be careful how you interpret the Classics. They use words like Yi and Qi as a way of helping you understand how to train and what is happening but that doesn't mean that you should get too hung up on believing that it is some mysterious quantity of energy that's beyond what you experience in your daily life. It's a way of describing exactly what you already experience all the time, every moment - only we constantly filter it out of our awareness because for our mundane daily activities we don't really need to attend to it. It's similar to the fact that we don't normally have to attend to our breathing and it is not a coincidence that the character for Qi is the same as for breath.

 

It's ok if we don't agree, I just wanted to share some of my own (possibly erroneous) insights in hopes that it will help demystify the process and encourage folks to begin or advance in their training.

[Andrei]

 

Thanks for that elaboration - the elastic component is very interesting but I'll have to study that to really understand it. Is it correct to say that as the elasticity becomes more firm, the constant is higher? If I'm not mistaken, the fact that the student tenses increases his elastic constant enhancing the force transfer. This would explain why you see the students either locking their elbows or pushing off to be bounced by their teacher (you see this in every video). It also explains why our Fa Jin is more effective when our opponent is tense. Conversely, it accounts for the fact that yielding neutralizes the force so dramatically.

 

I once had a self-proclaimed "master" try to demonstrate fa jin type force on me at a casual gathering of some friends at a tournament. He sort of put me on the spot without asking my permission. I don't particularly like the guy and his approach was arrogant and disrespectful (not that my ego played any part.... ).

So I just softened and absorbed his Fa each time he tried to attack. He looked pretty sad... He got frustrated and asked why I was being so "difficult" - I just laughed and he gave up.

 

Yes Steve, you're right. When you lock the elbows, tensing the body etc your elastic constant increases going to infinity if the body is "rigid". The elastic force to be efective needs a "ground" otherwise is rigid.

 

When you absorb the force there are three ways: by increasing the elastic constant by tensing your muscles, but you need a ground like the shaolin guy in the hard qigong video or,

 

By softening and increasing the damping which means you absorb the shock of the force in soft tissues that are full of fluids and the force is dispersed into the whole mass, or

 

By increasing both damping and elasticity in which case you accomplished the iron shirt gong fu...

 

 

 

[The Way Is Virtue]

It's ok if we don't agree, I just wanted to share some of my own (possibly erroneous) insights in hopes that it will help demystify the process and encourage folks to begin or advance in their training.

 

Hi Steve. I don't know that we really disagree on anything. You have provided some good insights into fajin. I was just adding that in my understanding there are different ways to fajin and different levels of attainment. I think all is good.

Edited August 10, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[doc benway]

Hi Steve. I don't know that we really disagree on anything. You have provided some good insights into fajin. I was just adding that in my understanding there are different ways to fajin and different levels of attainment. I think all is good.

Cool, thanks for that.

[mYTHmAKER]

Maybe the reason why there aren't many Taiji fights by masters is that in order to be of a high level and proficient in Taijiquan one has to learn to be counter intuitive / over ride normal modes of body and behavior.

A few examples - we learn to follow rather than resist, move in the direction you are being pulled rather than against it, relax when you are held, wait neither defending nor attacking.

We rewire our system, undo our usual ways so we are in a state of being rather than doing.

The result is it changes our personality. We are no longer the same person we were when we started - we become aligned with Tao

There is no longer a need or desire to fight, however the master can kick ass if necessary.

But he would rather not

Edited August 10, 2011 by mYTHmAKER

[goldisheavy]

Maybe the reason why there aren't many Taiji fights by masters is that in order to be of a high level and proficient in Taijiquan one has to learn to be counter intuitive / over ride normal modes of body and behavior.

A few examples - we learn to follow rather than resist, move in the direction you are being pulled rather than against it, relax when you are held, wait neither defending nor attacking.

We rewire our system, undo our usual ways so we are in a state of being rather than doing.

The result is it changes our personality. We are no longer the same person we were when we started - we become aligned with Tao

There is no longer a need or desire to fight, however the master can kick ass if necessary.

But he would rather not

 

This sounds like a plausible explanation and you're getting at the heart of the matter I think.

 

Imagine if Taijiquan practitioners routinely joined MMA bouts and routinely demonstrated all manner of strange abilities. Would this conversation be here? No, of course not. We would then just accept Taijiquan for what it is and none of its abilities would seem strange or controversial after a while. We'd get acclimated to it.

 

The situation now though is that 1) very amazing claims are made by the taiji people and 2) we don't see those claims tested in a real bout, but instead we have youtube videos demonstrating against passive opponents who resist in a very specific manner prescribed to them. So basically the demonstration is a setup and it's not an honest demonstration because these special conditions are not disclosed at the beginning of the video.

 

Imagine a video that starts off like this, "What you are about to see is a taijiquan demonstration. The demonstration is performed against opponents who are taught to resist in a specific way. Namely the opponents are asked to be still and stiff, simultaneously. Because this is the case, what you observe in this demonstration is a very exaggerated effect of taiji training which is not observable in a real bout against a skilled opponent. We do these types of demonstrations for practice to get the hang of the skills explained in our martial art."

 

Imagine??? Would controversies still exist? Would Stig want to travel around the world in that case?

[orb]

This sounds like a plausible explanation and you're getting at the heart of the matter I think.

 

Imagine if Taijiquan practitioners routinely joined MMA bouts and routinely demonstrated all manner of strange abilities. Would this conversation be here? No, of course not. We would then just accept Taijiquan for what it is and none of its abilities would seem strange or controversial after a while. We'd get acclimated to it.

 

The situation now though is that 1) very amazing claims are made by the taiji people and 2) we don't see those claims tested in a real bout, but instead we have youtube videos demonstrating against passive opponents who resist in a very specific manner prescribed to them. So basically the demonstration is a setup and it's not an honest demonstration because these special conditions are not disclosed at the beginning of the video.

 

Imagine a video that starts off like this, "What you are about to see is a taijiquan demonstration. The demonstration is performed against opponents who are taught to resist in a specific way. Namely the opponents are asked to be still and stiff, simultaneously. Because this is the case, what you observe in this demonstration is a very exaggerated effect of taiji training which is not observable in a real bout against a skilled opponent. We do these types of demonstrations for practice to get the hang of the skills explained in our martial art."

 

Imagine??? Would controversies still exist? Would Stig want to travel around the world in that case?

 

nice!

Edited August 11, 2011 by orb

[Stigweard]

This sounds like a plausible explanation and you're getting at the heart of the matter I think.

 

Imagine if Taijiquan practitioners routinely joined MMA bouts and routinely demonstrated all manner of strange abilities. Would this conversation be here? No, of course not. We would then just accept Taijiquan for what it is and none of its abilities would seem strange or controversial after a while. We'd get acclimated to it.

 

The situation now though is that 1) very amazing claims are made by the taiji people and 2) we don't see those claims tested in a real bout, but instead we have youtube videos demonstrating against passive opponents who resist in a very specific manner prescribed to them. So basically the demonstration is a setup and it's not an honest demonstration because these special conditions are not disclosed at the beginning of the video.

 

Imagine a video that starts off like this, "What you are about to see is a taijiquan demonstration. The demonstration is performed against opponents who are taught to resist in a specific way. Namely the opponents are asked to be still and stiff, simultaneously. Because this is the case, what you observe in this demonstration is a very exaggerated effect of taiji training which is not observable in a real bout against a skilled opponent. We do these types of demonstrations for practice to get the hang of the skills explained in our martial art."

 

Imagine??? Would controversies still exist? Would Stig want to travel around the world in that case?

Of course you know that I agree with you in full

[doc benway]

This sounds like a plausible explanation and you're getting at the heart of the matter I think.

 

Imagine if Taijiquan practitioners routinely joined MMA bouts and routinely demonstrated all manner of strange abilities. Would this conversation be here? No, of course not. We would then just accept Taijiquan for what it is and none of its abilities would seem strange or controversial after a while. We'd get acclimated to it.

 

The situation now though is that 1) very amazing claims are made by the taiji people and 2) we don't see those claims tested in a real bout, but instead we have youtube videos demonstrating against passive opponents who resist in a very specific manner prescribed to them. So basically the demonstration is a setup and it's not an honest demonstration because these special conditions are not disclosed at the beginning of the video.

 

Imagine a video that starts off like this, "What you are about to see is a taijiquan demonstration. The demonstration is performed against opponents who are taught to resist in a specific way. Namely the opponents are asked to be still and stiff, simultaneously. Because this is the case, what you observe in this demonstration is a very exaggerated effect of taiji training which is not observable in a real bout against a skilled opponent. We do these types of demonstrations for practice to get the hang of the skills explained in our martial art."

 

Imagine??? Would controversies still exist? Would Stig want to travel around the world in that case?

Very well said.

 

The other component is that becoming highly skilled at Taijiquan is extremely difficult and time consuming.

Perhaps there are a few high level masters who could hold their own in a cage match but I've yet to meet any and none has come forward to prove themselves and claim that honor. Perhaps it is a result of the training method mellowing the need to prove themselves or the desire to fight. Perhaps Taijiquan is just not a comprehensive enough art to stand up in the cage, no other single art is. That doesn't mean that I love my art any less. It is what it is and I no longer fight competitively and would avoid a real fight whenever possible.

 

Fighting is fighting, not a martial art. Martial art is not fighting, it is an organized and codified training method.

I think it is self evident that the best fighters out there are those who cross train in the few, specific techniques that are most effective, regardless of style, school, and so on, for a given purpose. For the octagon or cage (and arguably this is closest to real fighting) would be a combination of grappling (BJJ, Qin Na), some form of throwing (Shuai Jiao, Judo), and some effective hand and foot work(boxing, kung fu, karate, Muy Thai). Some combination of these has tested effective in no holds barred, full contact matches. Nothing else has.

[mYTHmAKER]

Very well said.

 

The other component is that becoming highly skilled at Taijiquan is extremely difficult and time consuming.

Perhaps there are a few high level masters who could hold their own in a cage match but I've yet to meet any and none has come forward to prove themselves and claim that honor. Perhaps it is a result of the training method mellowing the need to prove themselves or the desire to fight. Perhaps Taijiquan is just not a comprehensive enough art to stand up in the cage, no other single art is. That doesn't mean that I love my art any less. It is what it is and I no longer fight competitively and would avoid a real fight whenever possible.

 

Fighting is fighting, not a martial art. Martial art is not fighting, it is an organized and codified training method.

I think it is self evident that the best fighters out there are those who cross train in the few, specific techniques that are most effective, regardless of style, school, and so on, for a given purpose. For the octagon or cage (and arguably this is closest to real fighting) would be a combination of grappling (BJJ, Qin Na), some form of throwing (Shuai Jiao, Judo), and some effective hand and foot work(boxing, kung fu, karate, Muy Thai). Some combination of these has tested effective in no holds barred, full contact matches. Nothing else has.

 

Many Taiji masters cross train in the three internal arts -Taiji, Bagua, xingi.

My shifu does and teaches us all three.

It's interesting how they work together.

[Taomeow]

 

The other component is that becoming highly skilled at Taijiquan is extremely difficult and time consuming.

 

Anything worth doing is worth doing well. The crucial difference between taijiquan and any hard MA or any athletic activity for that matter is that the skill in the latter reaches a peak very early in life and it's downhill from there. A tennis player is considered old at 30, a gymnast, at 20. A professional boxer gets sick later in life -- every single one of them. A ballerina retires at 35. No matter how long and how hard they work at becoming highly skilled, there's a ceiling they hit very early and then the best they can do is linger there for a few more years, gradually (or abruptly) sliding down in skill, in the health of the body, and from what I've seen, let's not even mention the state of the mind that comes with the "has-been" status which can't be remedied by any amount of hard work and dedication.

 

With taijiquan it's the opposite! You can start at any age and as long as you keep investing hard work and dedication, your skill grows. This creates a totally different mindset of expectations, a very healthy one --

practitioners are not mourning a loss of this and that, not fighting a losing battle against entropy -- instead, they are celebrating steady growth, their lives are not about decline, their future is not about losing everything they once worked so hard to gain. Kicking or not kicking anyone's ass while at it is very peripheral, but kick ass they can, and also can be sure that if they can't today but keep working on it, ten years down the road their chances will be better rather than worse -- which is not true for Mohammed Ali et al.

[zerostao]

 

Edited January 23, 2012 by zerostao

[on the path]

Hi there my last thoughts about this thread is this;

 

Fa is fa there is no other defining splits in its practice. If you have good fa your energy will be extended to others, to inanimate objects and to the atmosphere. Depending on your personal cultivation, one can extend this fa for healing and harm. The lowest level of fa is extending it by touch, the highest level is by extension only. The degree in which it is possible to knock over a man or an inanimate object without touch is extremely high and rarer still. An inanimate object is the real test no fakers can ever survive this test. Show me a genuine video of a person moving a very heavy object independently of their interference without touch and I will have great respect for this person.

[doc benway]

Many Taiji masters cross train in the three internal arts -Taiji, Bagua, xingi.

My shifu does and teaches us all three.

It's interesting how they work together.

Agreed - I do as well. My shifu has always said that Taijiquan contains the other two. I agree with that but the specific training methods of the other two also develop very complimentary skills.

 

Anything worth doing is worth doing well. The crucial difference between taijiquan and any hard MA or any athletic activity for that matter is that the skill in the latter reaches a peak very early in life and it's downhill from there. A tennis player is considered old at 30, a gymnast, at 20. A professional boxer gets sick later in life -- every single one of them. A ballerina retires at 35. No matter how long and how hard they work at becoming highly skilled, there's a ceiling they hit very early and then the best they can do is linger there for a few more years, gradually (or abruptly) sliding down in skill, in the health of the body, and from what I've seen, let's not even mention the state of the mind that comes with the "has-been" status which can't be remedied by any amount of hard work and dedication.

 

With taijiquan it's the opposite! You can start at any age and as long as you keep investing hard work and dedication, your skill grows. This creates a totally different mindset of expectations, a very healthy one --

practitioners are not mourning a loss of this and that, not fighting a losing battle against entropy -- instead, they are celebrating steady growth, their lives are not about decline, their future is not about losing everything they once worked so hard to gain. Kicking or not kicking anyone's ass while at it is very peripheral, but kick ass they can, and also can be sure that if they can't today but keep working on it, ten years down the road their chances will be better rather than worse -- which is not true for Mohammed Ali et al.

Very good point - this is the reason I gave up the hard stuff when I hit 40 and started on the internal path.

[Stigweard]

Seeing the conversation is eddying around. Another thing to consider is that some styles are very contextualized with the society and landscape form which they emerged.

 

As an example there are differences between Northern and Southern kungfu styles. Northern styles tend to be more fluid, using more mobility and includes more kicks. Southern styles are more grounded and compact, using more hand techniques. The reason for the differences is that the Northern folk tended to be taller and the population not as dense, whilst the Southern folks were smaller in stature and the population more dense thus any fighting was mostly in urban environments.

 

There is also conjecture that the softer, internal styles emerged from the Northern areas whilst the harder, external styles emerged from the Southern areas. Again the social environment influenced this because in the South the frequency of conflict was much higher than that in the North (with the exception of the Mongolian wars). Thus in the South fighters had to get battle-ready much faster, thus the training was hard and the styles were hard. Soldiers weren't really expected to live past 30 anyway so intense body conditioning and physical endurance was the key.

 

My first Kungfu was like this. Basically trained up pain-desensitized brutes that you could use as shock troops in battle.

 

Whereas in the North, with less frequent conflict, martial artists could take longer to get up to battle-readiness thus they had more time to explore the internal arts.

 

So the emphasis of whether you train hard or soft styles depends on your social environment. If you live in the Bronx then I would probably say that a hard-style is best. If you live, like me, in a peaceful regional city where the most violence we get is someone cutting in on you at the fuel bowser, then perhaps soft styles are more appropriate.

 

And yes you also have to keep in mind your ongoing quality of life. The harder the style the more chance you are going to have arthritis and other physical problems as you age.

 

[goldisheavy]

http://neigong.net/2008/10/27/interview-with-zhao-daoxin/

 

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dachengquan

 

http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/ (warning, contrary opinions are contained here)

 

More fuel.

Edited August 13, 2011 by goldisheavy