Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[Stigweard]

No, in my opinion this is just wishful thinking but to each his own

 

In any case, even if one has real 'jin' it is still useless in a fight, unless he has the number one quality necessary in Martial Arts: guts

 

If you want to see real 'jin' you better look in this direction

 

 

YM

 

PS: it seems you are now talking about 'empty-fo(a)rce' so that would be so-called 'lingkong jin' so I think you better get your terminology straight

 

Heya Matey ... actually I agree with you in full ... just for the record

[Stigweard]

Something I wrote on FB around this subject:

 

With all due respect to [names omitted] (and I truly mean this), the test protocol that I have constructed ( http://bit.ly/pznoDZ ) is an opportunity to get some real research and credible data together.

 

At the moment there is not one single video clip on the web that I can find that gives the sort of clear evidence of fajin that would hold up in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

 

The question is "Why not?"

 

You call it an advanced technology. So why is there a universal absence of any credible experimental evidence?? There is not one single research paper, not one single journal article, and not one single documentary to be found that outlines any amount of credible data accrued through proper scientific testing.

 

Again "Why?"

 

Again with deepest respect, you chaps are lauding claims that this is somehow a superior martial ability. And yet, once again, there is not one scrap of substantiated evidence to back it up. All we have is your videos of you and your students, which cannot be taken as scientific proof.

 

I am deeply passionate about Taijiquan, but I believe this tragic absence of the scientific evidence for the "advanced technology" of empty force fajin is doing us all a disservice.

 

Well guess what? I just got kicked from The Kwoon for making the above comment.

 

My response to the group mod:

 

--------------------------

 

Unbelievable David. I am truly amazed that you would kick my from that group merely because I have challenged some cherished beliefs. Why are you chaps so afraid of having some straight-forward questions being asked?

 

If it is "disrespectful" to actually question so-called masters and ask them to back up their claims with some real-life proof then yes I have been disrespectful.

 

It is also disrespectful for these chaps (perhaps you are one of them) to be dishing out their claims of fajin ability and then demand that everyone accepts their statements without question. This sort of protectionism and enforced ignorance has led to the advent of dozens of frauds peddling their delusions across the world.

 

So if you want to talk about respect then that has to go both ways.

 

I presented a valid question with all due respect and politeness, though yes it was deliberately challenging of which I will make no apologies. And then you and .... make attempts to denigrate me with comments on my age.

 

Was that "respectful" David?

 

And now you kick me from a group for no other reason that I have dared to actually ask some hard questions.

 

Is that being "respectful" David?

 

The bottom line David is that every style must be pressure tested if it is to remain practical and relevant. Instead of banishing the one's asking the hard questions you should be welcoming them, invite them even. Especially if it is someone like me who is passionately in love with the art in question as is merely wanting to get some research done to further enhance the authenticity of the art.

 

But if you want just a bunch of chaps in your group who are just going to slap each other on the back and never ask the hard questions then so be it. That path is the path of stagnation David.

 

I see you have just posted a Code of Ethics. Have you treated me by the standards you are asking for David?

 

Be open you say ... but you have closed you mind to my line of inquiry.

 

You call it a place for learning ... but you shut down the questions that could lead to greater learning for all.

 

Hold noone accountable for mistakes, forgive you say ... and yet you try and punish me for only asking questions.

 

Interesting David, very interesting.

 

--------------------------

 

[Mal]

[spiraltao]

in my school fa jin is defined as the release of trained energy. here is a youtube vid that illustrates what I call fa jin!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2011 by jaysahnztao

[Stigweard]

[Mal]

It's currently on loan to a kung fu friend but I'll check.

 

The 6 out of 10 for a 3 year practice (and I think it was needing several hours practice a day) was ...... scary.

 

IIRC he did outline another practice (or 2) that were more effective, but they needed even more hours of daily practice.

 

(caution- it's been a few years since I've read this book IIRC may not be too correct )

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

What do you want to see 'fajin' for, I wonder

'Fajin' means nothing in a confrontation, totally nothing, it has just become a fashionable items sold to the gullible. And by the way some kinds of 'jin' are totally invisible thou of course can ben felt

 

Much if not all 'fajin' that you see on the web is just people shaking

Ask them to mesure the impact force of their strikes and compare to those of a beginner (western) boxer ... you will be surprised

 

YM

I'm hearing ya

[Taomeow]

I'm not sure about how to set up a proper protocol but I'd like share briefly my experience.

 

It involves a 63 year old man and myself, I'm 6ft, 230lbs. There was a little movement involved, a small pushing action, the results of which were stunning.

 

In his living room, he wanted to demonstrate a small potential involved with tai chi. I had no actual idea of what he meant but I was slightly braced for something physical as I thought it would be. His movement wasn't much but he did actually perform a pushing motion. the physical motion didn't didn't match the force.

 

I was "thrown" back roughly 6 ft but that wasn't what frightened me. My ears felt like they imploded and started ringing and physically and mentally I was disoriented. I would liken it to getting involved in a hit and run collision. I lost all motor control as well as having a complete mental blank, wondering what had just happened, where was I, etc.

 

I'm still not properly describing the experience. It's very hard to put it into words. It wasn't anything like the videos I've seen though.

 

Thank you for sharing. This closely matches my own experience. The impact you feel from short jin has absolutely nothing to do with the usual sensations from a blow. It is a disorienting blow to the way your senses are organized, more like.

 

And precisely because the real high-level thing is what it is, the entrenched "nonbelievers" fall apart from its application way more readily than do open perceivers (who are sensitive to reality as it happens rather than locked in the prison of their own ideas about reality). Unlike the urban legends about "cooperation" required to experience it (born of many fakes or wishful thinkers out there perhaps -- however nothing is rendered nonexistent by the sheer fact that it can be faked or wished for by those who don't have it), it's the other way around with the real thing: it is most devastatingly efficient against people who "don't believe in it" and have some serious mental investment into the "non-believing" belief system of theirs. That's because the non-believing systems are very hard and rigid, and are the psychological counterpart of the physical hardness and lack of song in taiji, i.e. something that renders one incapable of either mastering the art himself/herself or preventing its true master from using their hardness and rigidity against them.

 

There's a great story I remember, told by Hong Junsheng explaining fajin to his students. He was one of the greatest Chen masters of the 20th century and the only long term one-on-one student of Chen Fake if I remember correctly. So, once, coming home late at night, Hong had to walk through a dark alley on a moonless night. Suddenly the earth slipped from under his feet and he went flying, momentarily disoriented and confused. He hit the ground, braced himself for the unknown attacking enemy, groping in the dark. His hand landed on a watermelon rind. He realized that he had stepped on it and there was no other enemy.

 

Whereupon Hong knelt and bowed and said, "Oh great and mighty Master Watermelon Rind who defeated me tonight! I humbly thank you for the lesson. I will not forget it."

 

And he didn't, and the accounts of folks who pushed hands with him occasionally went something like, "all of a sudden I somehow got confused and my feet went sliding from under me because the ground suddenly turned slippery like ice and also I couldn't tell up from down -- so I went flying."

[YMWong]

Empty Force Fajin, also referred to as Fa Shen or Lingkong Jin, is where the demonstrator doesn't touch the subject at all; they can make them move at a distance. For the moment I am leaving this totally alone and focusing on the simple stage of where the demonstrator can be touched by the subject as outlined in Michaels comments.

 

I am afraid this "simple stage" described by Mr. Phillips does not exist in Taijiquan

 

 

YM

[Stigweard]

...

 

And precisely because the real high-level thing is what it is, the entrenched "nonbelievers" fall apart from its application way more readily than do open perceivers (who are sensitive to reality as it happens rather than locked in the prison of their own ideas about reality). Unlike the urban legends about "cooperation" required to experience it (born of many fakes or wishful thinkers out there perhaps -- however nothing is rendered nonexistent by the sheer fact that it can be faked or wished for by those who don't have it), it's the other way around with the real thing: it is most devastatingly efficient against people who "don't believe in it" and have some serious mental investment into the "non-believing" belief system of theirs. That's because the non-believing systems are very hard and rigid, and are the psychological counterpart of the physical hardness and lack of song in taiji, i.e. something that renders one incapable of either mastering the art himself/herself or preventing its true master from using their hardness and rigidity against them.

 

...

Actually evidence shows that it only works on the believers. Please show me a single authentic clip on the net that supports what you are saying.

 

 

 

 

[Gerard]

With all due respect it seems you guys have no idea about what 'fajin' is

 

YM

 

True, you can count on your fingers of one hand how many practitioners have attained empty force using Taiji. And certainly none with less than 30 years of continuous dedicated practice and focusing in internal cultivation rather than martial arts.

 

A real and well-known footage of Yang stylist Huang Xingxiang demonstrating Taiji's elastic force:

 

Edited August 4, 2011 by Gerard

[ChiDragon]

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

I am afraid this "simple stage" described by Mr. Phillips does not exist in Taijiquan

 

 

YM

Yup I am still hearing you. And yet the Taiji world is proliferated by folks who make a living pandering this stuff to salivating "believers". Why do you think this is?

[ChiDragon]

[Taomeow]

Actually evidence shows that it only works on the believers. Please show me a single authentic clip on the net that supports what you are saying.

 

"Evidence shows" is what a mathematician would call an "empty set." You would need to be more specific to fill the statement with any substance. Evidence I have shows nothing of the kind. Evidence YOU have is not "evidence shows," it's just "evidence Stig has noticed or was shown or has to show to date." D'accord?

 

As for showing you a clip on the net, you must have missed what I was saying. You can't find a clip of a psychosomatosensory experience on the net. You can have the experience or not, but you can't show it to others.

 

What I CAN do is introduce you to at least three people who can give you the experience. Come visit, I'll put you in touch. One of them is 80 and quite likely to give you the full monty rather than just a taste if you ask him nicely, because by this late in the day he's run out of patience with all the perennial beginners, dabblers, holders of opinions and non-believers in this and that that are the current Western and Westernized Chinese taiji scene, on top of which he doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks of him. I guarantee you don't have to believe in anything to experience him, or your money back.

[Stigweard]

"Evidence shows" is what a mathematician would call an "empty set." You would need to be more specific to fill the statement with any substance. Evidence I have shows nothing of the kind. Evidence YOU have is not "evidence shows," it's just "evidence Stig has noticed or was shown or has to show to date." D'accord?

Hehehe ... of course you are right in this

 

As for showing you a clip on the net, you must have missed what I was saying. You can't find a clip of a psychosomatosensory experience on the net. You can have the experience or not, but you can't show it to others.

 

What I CAN do is introduce you to at least three people who can give you the experience. Come visit, I'll put you in touch. One of them is 80 and rather likely to give you the full monty rather than just a taste if you ask him nicely, because by this late in the day he's run out of patience with all the perennial beginners, dabblers, holders of opinions and non-believers in this and that that are the current Western and Westernized Chinese taiji scene, on top of which he doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks of him. I guarantee you don't have to believe in anything to experience him, or your money back.

And you have missed the point of what I am saying.

 

The need for such an experiment in my mind is two-fold. Firstly yes because there are some frauds fleecing people of money who are also tainting this fine art with their BS. Secondly though because such an experiment would begin a collection of baseline data which could serve to advance skill and development. For example, if a teacher could pass the test then obviously what they have is the real deal and closer examination of their teaching would be beneficial to all.

 

[The Way Is Virtue]

If you want to see real 'jin' you better look in this direction

YM

 

Mike Tyson was a powerful guy, but he uses brute muscular force and he does not practice cultivation of internal energy (that I know of). The fajin spoken of in internal martial arts involves the use of internal energy, not the external muscular power of western boxing. The examples I posted earlier of Huang Sheng Shyan (who learned directly from Chen Man Ching) and Zhu Datong are examples of masters using internal energy to emit power, and the use of internal energy to emit power is fajin, at least from my understanding anyway.

There are no doubt different levels of attainment in this regard, but the use of internal energy to emit power is what I understand as being fajin. If someone truly knows otherwise then please explain.

 

If you look closely at the videos I posted earlier in this thread, you can see at certain points in the videos that these two masters are able to emit powerful force with little to no external movement of their bodies. If someone thinks it is fake and that the only way to emit power for fighting is through the use of the body mechanics and muscular force, then they may want to keep looking for another internal martial arts teacher.

 

The main source of power in true internal martial arts is derived from the cultivation and use of internal energy, and that should be where the main focus of practice is. The body movements and mechanics and body alignments in internal martial arts are mainly focused on proper body arrangement for the purposes of facilitating the cultivation and use of internal energy. Muscles should be not be tensed in practice and the use of overt muscular force should be avoided. Are these not the standard basic principles of internal martial arts training?

 

Edit: By the way, different internal martials arts and internal martial arts styles seem to have different practices and techniques in regards to training 'fajin'. For example, some Chen style folks seem to practice a lot of quite overt sudden elastic flicking and snapping motions, but other styles seem to focus more on other ways to release power in differnt ways. I think it is interesting to note that Feng Zhiqiang (a prominent student of Chen Fake) seems to have removed the overt external sudden flicking body movements and loud foot stomping practices from his system and instead seems to focus more on internal energy cultivation exercises and chan si gong exercises. It seems Feng Zhiqiang was not too impressed with these more outward external ways of practicing power, if I understand his reasoning correctly that is.

Edited August 4, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

Muscles should be not be tensed in practice and the use of overt muscular force should be avoided. Are these not the standard basic principles of internal martial arts training?

 

This is only true at the novice level. At higher level, the muscles must be contracted in order to Fa Jin. IMO People are so used to the basic principle of loosen up the muscles at the beginning of their lessens. However, nobody had ever mentioned to them that they will have better muscle tone after a long time practice. Then, they can tense up with their muscles to Fa Jin. You can up any physiological book, it will tell you that the muscles have to be contracted in order to exert a force.

[The Way Is Virtue]

This is only true at the novice level. At higher level, the muscles must be contracted in order to Fa Jin. IMO People are so used to the basic principle of loosen up the muscles at the beginning of their lessens. However, nobody had ever mentioned to them that they will have better muscle tone after a long time practice. Then, they can tense up with their muscles to Fa Jin. You can up any physiological book, it will tell you that the muscles have to be contracted in order to exert a force.

 

Hi ChiDragon. Yes, muscles have to tense to exert muscular force, but I don't think that is the goal in internal martial arts. I'm no expert by any means, but I know Feng Zhiqiang seems to have frowned on these sort of more overt external forms of practice and instead emphasizes relaxing, internal energy cultivation, and chan si gong practices. Other taiji teachers seem to take this approach as well such as the two taiji masters I mentioned previously. Do you practice Chen style taijiquan? Some traditional Chen style teachers seems to place more emphasis on employing more overt external shows of force than in some other styles, from what I can see anyway.

 

Edit: I just posted a link to an short interview with Feng Zhqiang in this thread. Some interesting comments in that interview that are relevant to this discussion.

Edited August 4, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[YMWong]

Yup I am still hearing you. And yet the Taiji world is proliferated by folks who make a living pandering this stuff to salivating "believers". Why do you think this is?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

 

 

YM

[doc benway]

These jin discussions are always interesting.

I can generate a reasonable amount of fa jin force.

A few of my seniors - more; my teacher and his son - a lot more.

It's not magic - it's timing, posture, and cultivation.

 

Now the "no touch" or "empty force" or whatever you want to call it is the stuff of myth and legend. I have never seen a video that convinced me that it exists including all of the videos posted in this thread - every one of them is no more than a parlor trick.

 

My teacher cannot produce it and has been a dedicated student and teacher of the Chinese internal and external arts for 50 years. He's very accomplished and can cause exactly the type of experience Taomeow and h.uriahr describe but contact is necessary. He talks about hearing of old masters that could do the no touch force but he never met one personally and I'm a skeptic.

 

I would gladly challenge anyone to attack me without touching. The masters that demonstrate the no touch force are generally demonstrating what my teacher would call hypnosis. It's a combination of intimidation, suggestion, expectation, and the subtle psychological factors that cause people to want these things to work and want their teacher to be the best and superhuman and so on.

 

All you need is earplugs and a blindfold, if that, and the "empty force" is just that, empty...

[doc benway]

In any case, even if one has real 'jin' it is still useless in a fight, unless he has the number one quality necessary in Martial Arts: guts

I'm going to respectfully disagree on this point. If you know how to apply fa jin, it can be useful in close quarters fighting. In most people's hands it does not have the knock out and traumatic power that many fantasize about but it's useful nevertheless. Even the "old masters" who are very skilled would think twice (if they have any sense) before mixing it up with a Tyson or a skilled MMA fighter...

 

Here are a few clips posted by minkus in another thread that show some pretty skillful application of fa jin. It's speckled throughout these the three clips and I recognize that these are not full contact bouts nor real combat but I think you can see how fa jin can be used.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19276-yin-yang-concept-in-tai-chi-chuan/page__view__findpost__p__273354

 

And you're absolutely right - guts counts for a lot.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Here is an interesting interview done with Feng Zhiqiang where he explains the difference between external and internal martials arts, and also comments about issuing power in internal martial arts, amongst other things:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/FZQinterview.html

 

Here's a few samples from this interview:

 

Jarek Szymanski: Mr.Feng, it is known that you studied Shaolin Standing Post methods in your youth. How would you compare it to Neijia practice?

 

MR.FENG ZHIQIANG: Yes, I learnt and practised Standing Post exercises of Shaolin school. The main difference between them and the methods of Neijia school is that Neijia emphasizes relaxation to greater degree. For this I think there is certain reason in dividing martial arts into External and Internal Families. It is also related to the methods of using Qi - External Family (Waijia) uses physical strength (Li) to drive Qi, while Internal Family (Neijia) uses Intention (Yi) to move Qi. Anyway, I had to give up all my external practise after I started practising Neijia.

 

 

JS: Is Dantian movement usefull in fighting?

 

MR.FENG: The body moves as a cordinated whole because of Dantian movement. While issuing power (Fa Li) Dantian turns and the whole body power is focused in one point. In this way the power issued can penetrate the bones of the opponent. While issuing power the body should be relaxed, but one should be very conscious about so-called "Shaking Power" (Dou Jin). This power has to be focused and not scattered all over the body. The more advanced one is, the smaller the shaking. When we were learning Taijiquan from Chen Fake shaking the body in Fa Li was the greatest taboo to be avoided.

 

 

JS: What changes have you noticed in the last twenty years and how in your opinion will Chen style Taijiquan evolve in the next fifty years?

 

MR.FENG: The recent years showed some phenomena that were not present when I was learning Taijiquan. Most of practitioners show a lot of Shaking Power. As I already said, the better the skill the smaller the shaking. Concerning the future, I believe there will be constant improvement in the skill level of the practitioners - they will realize the importance of Hunyuan. As old saying goes "Skill is satisfied only with clear understanding" - it is very important that the teacher understands and is able to explain clearly the principles of the art.

Edited August 4, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue