Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[on the path]

I personally don't feel any of these guys are particularly good at their fa jin strikes. If you study all of their postures, they all have to rely to some degree on basic principals of generating 'power' by winding up their torso's/spines. True striking or touching fa jin does not require this. The torso will be static, the shoulders static, the legs static, the arm only small movement, the hand/palm/finger tips sudden explosive movement which one may not even see.

[Wells]

Michael Phillips can do the REAL Fah Jing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

Edited August 7, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Ish]

Now this is Tai Ji Gong, the highest level of Tai Ji that one would like to be achieved. A real Tai Ji master does not need to jump and move around as much. Anyone has to move so much, jumping up and down, fall with the opponent and does lots of kicking, that was the combination of American boxing and wresting. It may not be called Tai Ji.

 

To me he is certainly not a taiji master. What do you think is so great about him - in terms of taijiquan?

I mean sure you wouldn't want to fight him, he strikes quickly and looks very aggressive, but seriously he looks VERY external. The way he just gives hard palm strikes to his students shows he either doesnt have any internal power or is just very irresponsible.

[ChiDragon]

To me he is certainly not a taiji master. What do you think is so great about him - in terms of taijiquan?

I mean sure you wouldn't want to fight him, he strikes quickly and looks very aggressive, but seriously he looks VERY external. The way he just gives hard palm strikes to his students shows he either doesnt have any internal power or is just very irresponsible.

 

It was so great about him was not in terms of Tai Ti Quang but it was his Tai Ji Jin(太極勁). If you understand what Jin(勁) is, then you'll know what I meant. I was talking about his Jin in his demo without his student or in contact with the student. His internal power or neigong is very powerful. Another word, he has been developed lots of Jin from his long periods of practice.

 

"The way he just gives hard palm strikes to his students shows he either doesnt have any internal power"

 

If he showed some real internal power, then, his student will be dead instantly. Do you see what I am saying...???

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

One does not has to be in contact with anyone to see how good the person is. One can tell by the way he practice to determine what level he is in. If one practice long enough, one can tell the level of the others. The practitioner in the first video, he was using lots of Jin in his moves. I know he is not a novice but a real Tai Ji master. I don't want to mess with him.

We need to be clear on what you mean by "how good the person is."

One can be very "good" at forms and generating fa jin through proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

One can be very "good" at slapping around one's students in front of a camera.

 

It's another thing altogether to fight in the real world, whether it be a full contact match or real self-defense/combat.

I've seen "excellent" martial artists fall apart in seconds after getting hit a few times.

I've seen sloppy nobodies beat the crap out of such "excellent" martial arts practitioners.

Good fighters train to fight.

Not all (actually, not many) martial artists train to fight.

[Ish]

It was so great about him was not in terms of Tai Ti Quang but it was his Tai Ji Jin(太極勁). If you understand what Jin(勁) is, then you'll know what I meant. I was talking about his Jin in his demo without his student or in contact with the student. His internal power or neigong is very powerful. Another word, he has been developed lots of Jin from his long periods of practice.

 

 

 

If he showed some real internal power, then, his student will be dead instantly. Do you see what I am saying...???

 

Yes i understand "Jin".

You can do a fast strike with good body mechanics - I believe this is referred to as "fa li". This doesnt mean the strike is backed by internal force. A strike with internal force isn't necessarily done by loading up the whole body and issuing a large strike - although correct body mechanics does facilitate good chi flow.

 

If you have build up some internal power through practicing nei gong/taiji correctly you WILL notice that internal force is issued through strikes you do without having to focus or channel energy to your palms for 5 minutes.

This can distort the energy system of another person if you hit them with a strike, sure it may not damage them overtly but does distorting someones energy seem healthy to you or something that you want to do to your students?

 

I could be wrong but from seeing a few of your posts it seems you basically believe chi is something like breath or oxygen. So really there is no point debating about chi or internal force, you have either experienced it or you haven't. Honestly though you don't have to practice much to experience chi, just train under a competent teacher. If chi is something you attain after 10 years of gruelling practice then something has gone completely wrong with the training methods.

[The Way Is Virtue]

The following statement by Feng Zhiqiang bears repeating:

"MR.FENG: Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice. One should practice Neigong (Internal Methods), routine, pushing hands (Tui Shou). Pushing Hands should be practised in a cooperative way, to get the skill of "knowing the opponent" (Zhi Bi), without any thought of fighting. Then one should also practice single movements and their applications, free techniques, footwork."

 

This is coming from Feng Zhiqiang who is a very accomplished and widely respected internal martial arts master. His words should not be taken lightly in my opinion. If one focuses too much on fighting in practice one will likely neglect and even hinder progress in internal energy cultivation and also the ability to sense and 'listen' which goes along with internal training. Jumping around and doing various strikes and kicks and throws may look impressive but does not demonstrate internal skill. Real internal skill is hidden and can really only be felt. You try to move the internal arts master and you can't budge him no matter how hard you try. You try to push the internal arts master and you find yourself flying backward with a powerful force although the master may have only barely moved. The higher the skill level the more it is hidden. If you look at videos of Feng Zhiqiang doing his taijiquan you might never guess he has attained a high level of internal skill, but those who have made the mistake of challenging him have felt first hand what real internal skill is. That's my two cents' worth on the matter anyway.

Edited August 7, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[mjjbecker]

The following statement by Feng Zhiqiang bears repeating:

"MR.FENG: Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice. One should practice Neigong (Internal Methods), routine, pushing hands (Tui Shou). Pushing Hands should be practised in a cooperative way, to get the skill of "knowing the opponent" (Zhi Bi), without any thought of fighting. Then one should also practice single movements and their applications, free techniques, footwork."

 

This is coming from Feng Zhiqiang who is a very accomplished and widely respected internal martial arts master. His words should not be taken lightly in my opinion. If one focuses too much on fighting in practice one will likely neglect and even hinder progress in internal energy cultivation and also the ability to sense and 'listen' which goes along with internal training, which is the foundation of the internal arts. Jumping around and doing various strikes and kicks and thows may look impressive but does not demonstrate internal skill. Real internal skill is hidden and can really only be felt. The higher the skill level the more it is hidden. If you look at videos of Feng Zhiqiang doing his taijiquan you might never guess he has attained a high level of internal skill, but those who have made the mistake of challenging him have felt first hand what real internal skill is. That's my two cents' worth on the matter anyway.

 

I've had the great honour of meeting Grandmaster Feng and being footswept by him when he demonstrated the correct use of 'energy' for me. Anyone who has been taught some of the techniques from his method should have no doubt about their effectiveness. It is designed to kill and maim-a true combat art. Combined with the neigong...

 

There is a very good video of him demonstrating on Japanese TV a few years back. He would have been in his 70's at the time I think.

 

 

On a similar level, the late, great, Wang Peisheng, head of the Beijing school of Wu taijian also had amazing ability. I never had the honour of meeting him, but have met a few people connected to his lineage. I had one teacher demonstrate the mechanics of this method. It is very effective at seemingly effortless power. The man was somewhat smaller and lighter than me, but was able to move me around using correct mechanics rather than muscle power.

 

This is a great demonstration by the grand master. He was in his 70's also at this time I believe, and had also survived nearly 20 years in a Chinese prison during the Cultural Revolution.

 

[Stigweard]

Another example of what Taiji ends up looking like in full contact:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLJFEpBoAk

 

And I always love watching Cung Le fight. This is just a demonstration:

 

Edited August 7, 2011 by Stigweard

[Stigweard]

The following statement by Feng Zhiqiang bears repeating:

"MR.FENG: Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice. One should practice Neigong (Internal Methods), routine, pushing hands (Tui Shou). Pushing Hands should be practised in a cooperative way, to get the skill of "knowing the opponent" (Zhi Bi), without any thought of fighting. Then one should also practice single movements and their applications, free techniques, footwork."

Contrasting distinctly to Dr Yang Jwing Ming who says that at all times one must maintain a sense of enemy. I personally agree. By putting every move in the context of being in interaction with a non-abiding opponent correct posture and intent comes about. Nearly every time a student is struggling with a move I show them how it could be applied in a martial situation, has proven to help 6000%.

 

I think the fundamental reason why these chaps who think they can bounce people off with just their Qi have fallen into that delusion is because they have omitted full-contact work from their training.

 

Bottom-line ... Taiji is a fighting art ... keep it in that context.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I've had the great honour of meeting Grandmaster Feng and being footswept by him when he demonstrated the correct use of 'energy' for me. Anyone who has been taught some of the techniques from his method should have no doubt about their effectiveness. It is designed to kill and maim-a true combat art. Combined with the neigong...

 

There is a very good video of him demonstrating on Japanese TV a few years back. He would have been in his 70's at the time I think.

 

 

On a similar level, the late, great, Wang Peisheng, head of the Beijing school of Wu taijian also had amazing ability. I never had the honour of meeting him, but have met a few people connected to his lineage. I had one teacher demonstrate the mechanics of this method. It is very effective at seemingly effortless power. The man was somewhat smaller and lighter than me, but was able to move me around using correct mechanics rather than muscle power.

 

This is a great demonstration by the grand master. He was in his 70's also at this time I believe, and had also survived nearly 20 years in a Chinese prison during the Cultural Revolution.

 

 

 

Don't even try to tell me that wasn't some serious fa jin at 50 seconds on the first clip. The second clip was an ansolute treat too. Literally awesome!

 

Thanks!

[Stigweard]

I was just curious about the way you were talking about Fa Jin for being a Tai Chi practitioner.

Interesting insinuations there CD. May I ask where you are going with this?

 

[Stigweard]

We need to be clear on what you mean by "how good the person is."

One can be very "good" at forms and generating fa jin through proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

One can be very "good" at slapping around one's students in front of a camera.

 

It's another thing altogether to fight in the real world, whether it be a full contact match or real self-defense/combat.

I've seen "excellent" martial artists fall apart in seconds after getting hit a few times.

I've seen sloppy nobodies beat the crap out of such "excellent" martial arts practitioners.

Good fighters train to fight.

Not all (actually, not many) martial artists train to fight.

 

[Stigweard]

Michael Phillips can do the REAL Fah Jing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

Well if Mr Phillips is the "REAL Fah Jing" perhaps he should show his stuff in full contact fighting or at the least in the test I have put forward in the OP ... rather than just push about folks who are obviously compliant.

 

[The Way Is Virtue]

Contrasting distinctly to Dr Yang Jwing Ming who says that at all times one must maintain a sense of enemy. I personally agree. By putting every move in the context of being in interaction with a non-abiding opponent correct posture and intent comes about. Nearly every time a student is struggling with a move I show them how it could be applied in a martial situation, has proven to help 6000%.

I think the fundamental reason why these chaps who think they can bounce people off with just their Qi have fallen into that delusion is because they have omitted full-contact work from their training.

Bottom-line ... Taiji is a fighting art ... keep it in that context.

 

Stig, I don't follow you at all here. Feng Zhiqiang is not talking through his hat. He has taken various real challenges from various martial artists of different styles in the past, and from what I understand has taken care of all the challengers fairly quickly with no problem. I believe he also just does enough when challenged to convince the opponent that they are out of their league and there is no point continuing further, and he has not tried to seriously hurt anyone. A skilled internal arts master does not need to cause serious injury to settle a match. It usually doesn't take long for an opponent to realize they are way out-matched.

 

Also, there is a big difference between saying one should maintain a sense of an opponent when practicing as opposed to one putting the focus of one's practice mainly on applications and sparring and fighting and neglecting internal cultivation, which is the foundation of the internal arts. Without strong focus on internal cultivation as the foundation it will only be maneuvering and strikes and kicks and throws, not really different from other external arts like judo or sanshou or boxing, etc. Feng Zhiqiang has made a point of returning the emphasis in internal arts training back to internal cultivation and developing self defense skill naturally in the process. Once one has a solid foundation in internal cultivation one can then start learning more about the applications of the movements and that sort of thing. Feng Zhiqiang has more than proven the effectiveness of this approach. By the way, Dr Yang Jwing Ming is mainly an external stylist from what I have gathered. Taijiquan seems like more of a sideline for him, not his main practice. Not really a valid comparison of points of view, IMO.

[ChiDragon]

Interesting insinuations there CD. May I ask where you are going with this?

 

Nowhere, nowhere, just like the beginning....

[gendao]

I agree to a degree; it's harder to teach to westerners since we are to mechanical in our thinking and movements and want instant gratification (sorry about that 'we' in my pocket).

Well, I meant really to anyone. I mean, how do you really teach someone how to sink their qi and root? It's not a physical process that you can directly show like a golf swing.. So even without a language barrier, there's an inherent "visual" barrier there, regardless.

Well if Mr Phillips is the "REAL Fah Jing" perhaps he should show his stuff in full contact fighting or at the least in the test I have put forward in the OP ... rather than just push about folks who are obviously compliant.

Well, no his ukes aren't resisting, but I don't think they're actively overdoing it either..

 

The noticeable difference in the 2 being the much higher initial launch velocity and "bronze man" instant shearing off both feet with the more legit-looking fajins (as I've also experienced it) - vs. the more leisurely "skipping" back (and running up walls?) in the less legit-looking demos..

Edited August 7, 2011 by vortex

[mjjbecker]

Don't even try to tell me that wasn't some serious fa jin at 50 seconds on the first clip. The second clip was an ansolute treat too. Literally awesome!

 

Thanks!

 

You are most welcome. Both grand masters demonstrate a level of skill that is simply incredible.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Well if Mr Phillips is the "REAL Fah Jing" perhaps he should show his stuff in full contact fighting or at the least in the test I have put forward in the OP ... rather than just push about folks who are obviously compliant.

Hi Stig. Rather than slinging mud at various people from your computer desk chair, why not contact Mr. Phillips and others you have implied are fakes here and ask if they would mind if you visited them in person for some friendly skills comparison? Then you can report back here and speak from real experience on how good or poor their skills are? Make sure to video tape the events fully without editing so we can see the actual results for ourselves.

 

All I see all over the net is various people calling various teachers fakes and such but these same computer desk masters often never seem to be willing to get up out of their desk chairs and go respectfully compare skills in person with the other teachers/students they are putting down or making snide comments about. What ever happened to common courtesy and respect...? Sorry but this needed to be said, IMO. Real internal skill is hidden. If you want to test someone's internal skill you really need to go and meet them and at least push hands with them or maybe do some friendly sparring to see what internal skill they really have. If someone has real internal skill it shouldn't take long to find that out. You don't have to conduct a scientific experiment as anyone who is really interested in finding out the truth can just go and visit various teachers and experience the truth for themself. Sure it takes some effort and may cost a bit of money, but at least then one will be speaking from real knowledge and experience instead of just idle speculation...

[doc benway]

The following statement by Feng Zhiqiang bears repeating:

"MR.FENG: Although martial arts are about fighting, one should not think about fighting during practice. The fighting skill comes naturally after a certain time of correct practice. One should practice Neigong (Internal Methods), routine, pushing hands (Tui Shou). Pushing Hands should be practised in a cooperative way, to get the skill of "knowing the opponent" (Zhi Bi), without any thought of fighting. Then one should also practice single movements and their applications, free techniques, footwork."

I think this makes some sense.

Specific martial arts (Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, etc...) are training methods, they are not fighting.

Fighting is what happens when two or more people try hurt or kill each other.

If you want to excel at fighting, I think it's been fairly well proven that you should train in a method that is specifically geared in that direction - boxing and MMA gyms come to mind.

If you want to excel at a specific martial art and reap the benefits it has to offer beyond fighting, study your art of choice.

It's possible that you could become a good fighter through studying a martial art but it will depend on many factors including the art, your teacher, your own constitution, how much actual fighting you do, and so on.

I find it kind of humorous that people are always talking about this or that style being better and equating martial arts with fighting prowess - it isn't that simple.

 

Don't even try to tell me that wasn't some serious fa jin at 50 seconds on the first clip.

 

That kao expressed real fajin - no question. It isn't magic. I can do it as can many of the people who practice Taijiquan on this forum, I'm sure.

I'm not saying I have the same level of skill of Master Wang but it's just proper training and practice.

[mjjbecker]

Hi Stig. Rather than slinging mud at various people from your computer desk chair, why not contact Mr. Phillips and others you have implied are fakes here and ask if they would mind if you visited them in person for some friendly skills comparison? Then you can report back here and speak from real experience on how good or poor their skills are? Make sure to video tape the events fully without editing so we can see the actual results for ourselves.

 

All I see all over the net is various people calling various teachers fakes and such but these same computer desk masters often never seem to be willing to get up out of their desk chairs and go respectfully compare skills in person with the other teachers/students they are putting down or making snide comments about. What ever happened to common courtesy and respect...? Sorry but this needed to be said, IMO. Real internal skill is hidden. If you want to test someone's internal skill you really need to go and meet them and at least push hands with them or maybe do some friendly sparring to see what internal skill they really have. If someone has real internal skill it shouldn't take long to find that out. You don't have to conduct a scientific experiment as anyone who is really interested in finding out the truth can just go and visit various teachers and experience the truth for themself. Sure it takes some effort and may cost a bit of money, but at least then one will be speaking from real knowledge and experience instead of just idle speculation...

 

Absolutely. Well said and I agree 100%.

[ChiDragon]

Absolutely. Well said and I agree 100%.

Ｉ can't argue about that....

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

We need to be clear on what you mean by "how good the person is."

1. One can be very "good" at forms and generating fa jin through proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

 

2. One can be very "good" at slapping around one's students in front of a camera.

 

3. It's another thing altogether to fight in the real world, whether it be a full contact match or real self-defense/combat.

I've seen "excellent" martial artists fall apart in seconds after getting hit a few times.

I've seen sloppy nobodies beat the crap out of such "excellent" martial arts practitioners.

Good fighters train to fight.

Not all (actually, not many) martial artists train to fight.

 

1. To me, if a Tai Ji practitioner has reached a level that he can Fa Jin, then he is good. If one can Fa Jin, he has already incorporated the proper training of timing, breath, posture, and Qi cultivation.

 

3. Fighting in a match would be the last thing that a Tai Chi practitioner to be considered of.

[doc benway]

Fighting in a match would be the last thing that a Tai Chi practitioner to be considered of.

That's simply a 20th century phenomenon.

Probably latter half of the 20th century, in fact.

Taijiquan is a martial art. Martial arts were traditionally tested in combat.

If you lost a challenge match, you were out of business, injured, or dead, but that was a long time ago.

 

If you want to look at Taijiquan as a martial art, you cannot separate it from fighting.

Fa jin alone will not win a fight.

I'm quite certain of that.

[Ish]

I'm not sure why people refer to Fa Jin like it is an attainment.

Both a beginner and master can fa jin but the difference between 2 practioners "jin" can be massive.

Being able to fa jin for an internal arts practioner is important, just as is learning to punch correctly for a boxer.

Certainly training ones jin and practicing fa jin to a high level is a great asset in a fight. Does a boxer get to a high level without training his muscles extensively and also practicing his punches 1000's of times?

 

Of course it's one dimension to overall combat, there are many many other factors. Practicing realistic sparring is extremely important.