To rule in hell, or serve in heaven?

[zerostao]

i had this silly notion, that the best way to rule , is to serve.

 

SZ "If you just ignore authority and live your life as you see fit, what is there to rebel against?" i like this. but authority will then rebel against you,

authority does not like to be ignored. i ignore it all the time but it doesnt always go smoothly.

[tulku]

From what I heard, Lucifer AKA Mara doesn't rule in hell but actually rule in some higher dimension of his own making.

 

This dimension is lower than the Buddha Dimensions and the Source Dimension of the Lord Creator himself.

 

The true hell has no ruler in it. It is such a lowly place that even the demons do not want to reside in that plane.

[tulku]

i had this silly notion, that the best way to rule , is to serve.

 

SZ "If you just ignore authority and live your life as you see fit, what is there to rebel against?" i like this. but authority will then rebel against you,

authority does not like to be ignored. i ignore it all the time but it doesnt always go smoothly.

 

This is because most people are weak and afraid of death.

 

No authority in the Universe can intimidate a strong warrior who isn't afraid of death, unless it is the Universal Creator himself.

[tulku]

Some stuff from wikipedia...

 

 

 

This version of Satan tests, tempts and tortures men...as can be seen in Job. God does not oppose its work...

 

 

 

So Satan is apparently similar to an angel (a being lesser than or equal to God that serves him), if not one...spending its time on earth/out of the presence of God perhaps by choice, capable of entering the presence of God by its own choice, agreeable to the idea that men should fear God, whose action is to bring curses upon men.

 

I took a class once, and the teacher said it was kind of like a game between God and Satan...kind of like "I bet you 10 bucks you're wrong about this dude."

 

 

 

In Job's case, the dispute between God and Satan is whether man respects God and his divine mandate unconditionally or not.

 

As for the main point of the book of Job:

 

 

 

Job questions why God allowed his suffering, despite his righteousness...then God's explanation is that Job has no right to question.

 

Pretty brutal!

 

...

 

 

 

There are some theories out there (which you can read in "The Hiram Key Revisited") which say that the spirit of God, or "shekinah", was actually the light of venus and mercury combined in the sky, and settling upon the ark in the temple in Jerusalem. Questionable, but interesting.

 

Venus is said to be the brightest object in the sky apart from the sun and moon, and is known to be symbolic of love and femininity since ancient (Babylonian) times.

 

 

 

Sticky subject. The author of Revelation quotes Jesus (he might not have ever actually said it) as calling himself the planet Venus (maybe that it represents his energy or something), and it says that we might gain the planet Venus for ourselves. Perhaps it is the holy spirit/presence of God/love or maybe the same thing as sophia/wisdom.

 

 

 

The planet Venus (symbolizing love?) rising in our hearts. It's insinuating that when this morning star rises in our hearts that prophecies will come true.

 

"Lucifer" in the Isaiah passage doesn't make much sense, except that Babylonian kings may have worshipped planetary powers and that may have been attributed to his initial success.

 

To put it in a way that makes sense...think of how George Bush called himself a Christian, yet his actions regarding Iraq at the beginning of the occupation (shock and awe) were horrendous. So a modern day prophet could say "You great Christian, look at you now!" Probably a similar thing regarding the Babylonian king.

 

Anyway, those are just some ideas! At least personally, I view the whole heaven vs hell mindset to be a bit primitive. I act out of compassion for myself and others, trying to do the right thing, and accomplish the best effect for all...sometimes that involves serving, sometimes ruling, sometimes being in a hellish place, sometimes being in a heavenly place while on earth. Sometimes it means going against the divine mandate/status quo, if it's justified...the punishment for such actions will be between myself and whoever is capable of judging me. I don't know whether these realms and powers exist, so I am honest and my actions are based solely on what I know to be true in this life on earth. Most religious ideas are delusional, and untrue in spiritual reality...in my view.

 

 

oh trust me these realms and powers exist..

 

the problem is, there is more than one different realm/power and more often than not, these realms/powers have conflicting interests..

 

therefore the poor unawakened man with a low consciousness find himself confused and pulled in different directions most of the time..

[tulku]

I've heard thoughts like this before. You just can't trust anybody!

 

 

 

Hmm, I dunno. Human nature is pretty insidious like that.

 

"Oh, yes, thank you for telling me to rebel, you showed me not to just follow people blindly. Now please, oh rebellious leader, tell me what I should rebel against next!"

 

It's hard to be truly rebellious and free thinking. I think a significant portion of those who say they are, aren't. They've just supplanted one overt authority for a subversive authority. They tell themselves they are making their own decisions, but they are not.

 

And that is far, FAR more dangerous, IMHO.

 

The true Universal Creator will let us petty mortals make our own decisions, even if it is to our own detriment.

 

This is why the Creator gives us free will. Even the Buddhas did not wish for us to blindly worship and pray to their statues.

 

Only demons like Lucifer would force us, with threats and whatnot, to follow and pay homage to one deity or another.

Edited August 7, 2011 by tulku

[goldisheavy]

i had this silly notion, that the best way to rule , is to serve.

 

SZ "If you just ignore authority and live your life as you see fit, what is there to rebel against?" i like this. but authority will then rebel against you,

authority does not like to be ignored. i ignore it all the time but it doesnt always go smoothly.

 

True, but authority depends on us for its power. The reason it doesn't like to be ignored is because it gets powered by our attention and love. If we don't give it any, it knows it is dying and instead of earning respect in legitimate ways by love, it tries to earn respect by fear.

Edited August 7, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Aetherous]

oh trust me these realms and powers exist..

 

I'll take your word for it...with a grain of salt.

[Birch]

i had this silly notion, that the best way to rule , is to serve.

 

SZ "If you just ignore authority and live your life as you see fit, what is there to rebel against?" i like this. but authority will then rebel against you,

authority does not like to be ignored. i ignore it all the time but it doesnt always go smoothly.

I do lots of that and yes "it works" but i'm not doing it because it works. Because I fell into it that way "it works." I'd make fly/flippant remark here. C'ept it is pointless IMO

Still, none of what I'm doing even registers with the folks i'd like it to. I think. And IMO if I share my POV with folks it doesn't go down too well IME.

[zerostao]

GIH "True, but authority depends on us for its power. The reason it doesn't like to be ignored is because it gets powered by our attention and love. If we don't give it any, it knows it is dying and instead of earning respect in legitimate ways by love, it tries to earn respect by fear."

interesting perspective. i was speaking of wordly authority. you are speaking of otherwordly?

 

-K- "I do lots of that and yes "it works" but i'm not doing it because it works. Because I fell into it that way "it works." I'd make fly/flippant remark here. C'ept it is pointless IMO

Still, none of what I'm doing even registers with the folks i'd like it to. I think. And IMO if I share my POV with folks it doesn't go down too well IME.

 

i think you march to the beat of your own drum -K- i respect that very much.

[goldisheavy]

GIH "True, but authority depends on us for its power. The reason it doesn't like to be ignored is because it gets powered by our attention and love. If we don't give it any, it knows it is dying and instead of earning respect in legitimate ways by love, it tries to earn respect by fear."

interesting perspective. i was speaking of wordly authority. you are speaking of otherwordly?

 

In my view they are one and the same. The worldly authority is a projection of what's inside the mind.

[zerostao]

In my view they are one and the same. The worldly authority is a projection of what's inside the mind.

if wordly authority was a projection of my mind there would be anarchy

but i understand what you are saying.

[thelerner]

When times are hellish

serve

because it helps and inspires,

there are already

assholes lining up to rule

 

When in heaven

neither serve or rule

go with the flow

and enjoy.

[stan herman]

Another facet of the devil and his work:

 

 

When most people think about the devil it's usually with a frown and a little worry line or two (who knows, he might be out there, just watching and waiting). Or worse, he might know more about you--the real you--than you would like. R.J. Zwi Werblowsky, Professor Emeritus of Comparative Religion at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and a psychological literary critic wrote, "The apocalyptic beast let loose has become a reality to our generation, and nobody knows what is still ahead of us... [but he is most frightening] because we fear the devil's sight more than his activity, and because of a very understandable reticence to force open our 'whited sepulchres' (i.e. a person who regards himself as inwardly evil but outwardly professes to be virtuous)."

 

A devil's advocate is someone who argues with "what everybody believes" (or pretends to believe). He and She takes a position (he does not necessarily agree with) just to test whether what everybody believes is really true or not. Does the claim hold up or does it need to be modified, qualified, or even tossed away?

 

Curiously enough, the devil's advocate, originated with the Roman Catholic Church's process for canonizing candidates for sainthood. He was a canon lawyer, appointed by the church to argue the case against the candidate. His opponent was called God's advocate. The devil's advocate's job was to be a skeptic, to question the validity of the supposed miracles the candidate had performed, to look for holes in the stories and flaws in the candidate's character. The position was established in 1587 during the reign of Pope Sixtus V and lasted for almost 400 years. It was abolished by Pope John Paul II in 1983. Following its abolition nearly 500 individuals were canonized and over 1,300 were beatified during John Paul's tenure as Pope, as compared to only 98 canonizations by all his 20th-century predecessors.

[Aetherous]

Curiously enough, the devil's advocate, originated with the Roman Catholic Church's process for canonizing candidates for sainthood. He was a canon lawyer, appointed by the church to argue the case against the candidate. His opponent was called God's advocate. The devil's advocate's job was to be a skeptic, to question the validity of the supposed miracles the candidate had performed, to look for holes in the stories and flaws in the candidate's character. The position was established in 1587 during the reign of Pope Sixtus V and lasted for almost 400 years. It was abolished by Pope John Paul II in 1983. Following its abolition nearly 500 individuals were canonized and over 1,300 were beatified during John Paul's tenure as Pope, as compared to only 98 canonizations by all his 20th-century predecessors.

 

The devil's advocate actually sounds very similar to the scriptural devil.

 

"In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan (השָׂטָן) means "the adversary"[6] or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Judaism

Edited August 9, 2011 by Scotty

[tulku]

The second biggest problem with ruling other people is that it drives the attention and focus away from yourself.

 

This is why all the enlightened sages shun all offers of position, power and money. They know that these are all distractions which will only impede their enlightenment process.

 

When you rule, you have to spend time and energy overseeing other people. How do you spend time and energy on developing yourself instead?

 

The Biggest problem with trying to become the king is that you forgot you are part of the Creator and the Creator is the king and emperor instead of you.

 

By trying to maintain and rule a separate realm apart from the Creator instead of joining everything which you have to the Creator, you are actually inhibiting your own process of Enlightenment.

[goldisheavy]

The second biggest problem with ruling other people is that it drives the attention and focus away from yourself.

 

This is why all the enlightened sages shun all offers of position, power and money. They know that these are all distractions which will only impede their enlightenment process.

 

When you rule, you have to spend time and energy overseeing other people. How do you spend time and energy on developing yourself instead?

 

The Biggest problem with trying to become the king is that you forgot you are part of the Creator and the Creator is the king and emperor instead of you.

 

By trying to maintain and rule a separate realm apart from the Creator instead of joining everything which you have to the Creator, you are actually inhibiting your own process of Enlightenment.

 

The Daoist ideal is to rule without overtly ruling. The sage rules his own body and thus the sage rules everything between heaven and earth. Ruling from this point of view is no different from ordinary life. In an ordinary life you have to respond wisely to situations which develop. If you're a ruler, the same thing is true. You don't have to try to lord it over others or to be a pestering nanny. For the most part people rule themselves just fine and don't need a whole lot of external ruling. As various situations develop the sage reacts appropriately. Sometimes an appropriate reaction is to go talk to one of your subjects and find out what is bothering him/her. It's just a natural reaction and going with the flow. It's not an iron-fist ruling or nanny ruling.

 

But I agree that ruling is always less than ideal. In an ideal society no one rules and no one is ruled, and the sage knows this and always aims for that ideal.