[TTC Study] Chapter 58 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 58

 

John Wu

 

Where the ruler is mum, mum,

The people are simple and happy.

Where the ruler is sharp, sharp,

The people are wily and discontented.

Bad fortune is what good fortune leans on,

Good fortune is what bad fortune hides in.

Who knows the ultimate end of this process?

Is there no norm of right?

Yet what is normal soon becomes abnormal,

And what is auspicious soon turns ominous.

Long indeed have the people been in a quandary.

Therefore, the Sage squares without cutting,

carves without disfiguring,

straightens without straining,

enlightens without dazzling.

 

 

English/Feng

 

When the country is ruled with a light hand

The people are simple.

When the country is ruled with severity,

The people are cunning.

Happiness is rooted in misery.

Misery lurks beneath happiness.

Who knows what the future holds?

There is no honesty.

Honesty becomes dishonest.

Goodness becomes witchcraft.

Man's bewitchment lasts for a long time.

Therefore the sage is sharp but not cutting,

Pointed but not piercing,

Straightforward but not unrestrained,

Brilliant but not blinding.

 

 

Robert Henrichs

 

 

When the government is muddled and confused,

The people are genuine and sincere.

When the government is discriminate and clear,

The state is crafty and cunning.

Disaster is that on which good fortune depends.

Good fortune is that in which disaster's concealed.

Who knows where it will end?

For there is no [fixed] "correct."

The "correct" turns into the "deviant";

And "good" turns into "evil."

People's state of confusion

Has certainly existed for a long time.

Therefore be square but don't cut;

Be sharp but don't stab;

Be straightforward but not unrestrained;

Be bright but don't dazzle.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[ChiDragon]

1. The government seems dull and depressing,

2. Then, the people are primitive and simple.

3. The government seems harsh and acrimonious,

4. Then, the people are cunning and sanctimonious.

 

13.Only a sage with corners which do not cut,

14.Sharp but harmless,

15.Blunt but not intemperate,

16.Bright but not dazzling,

 

5. Misfortune leaning against fortune,

6. Fortune hidden in misfortune.

7. Who knows the ultimate outcome?

8. There is no answer.

9. Truth become fallacy

10.Kindness become devilish.

11.The people are living with confusion,

12.These kind of days had been too long.

 

Note:Please notice the order if the lines had been changed to keep the logic flow.

 

58

1. 其政悶悶，

2. 其民淳淳。

3. 其政察察，

4. 其民缺缺。

 

5. 禍尚福之所倚。

6. 福尚禍之所伏。

7. 孰知其極，

8. 其無正。

9. 正復為奇，

10.善復為妖。

11.人之迷其日固久。

 

12.是以聖人

13.方而不割。

14.廉而不劌。

15.直而不肆。

16.光而不燿。

[dawei]

Flowing Hands:

 

CHAPTER 58

 

When the country is left to rule itself, people are simple and honest.

When the country is ruled by a dictator, who demands far too much from the people, people

become cunning and rebel.

When people become cunning,

clever men employ their schemes to control and manipulate others.

Such men grow rich and deceive others.

They prey on the poor and simple.

The more such men exist, the further the Dao is lost,

until man’s natural way cannot be remembered.

And so the people are trapped and have lost their way.

Therefore the Sage says;

'go back to Nature, give up ingenuity, give up profit and material possessions, live

off the land and enjoy a good and simple life.'

Be forever contented and enjoy a full, unrestricted, peaceful life.

 

 

Ni:

 

When the government does not interfere, the people are simple and happy.

When the government does interfere, the people are tense and cunning.

Disaster is what blessing perches on.

Blessing is where disaster abides.

Who can say what the ultimate end of all possibilities will be?

Appropriate means soon become unfitting.

Good means soon turn to evil.

Long indeed have the people been perplexed by the endless, topsy-turvy movement of life.

Therefore, one of subtle virtue dissolves and eliminates the vicious cycle of duality.

He may have sharp corners, but he does not jab.

He may extend himself, but not at the expense of others.

He may shine, but he does not dazzle.

Edited August 6, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

I like the way Ni handles the last four lines. I think this presents the concept very well.

[dawei]

A few curious finds in this chapter. I focused most of my thought about the opening lines and closing one. While I think most get the gist of the opening (except Hendricks) I think the closing doesn't 'close' well enough. In looking deeper, I came up with something more interesting. But we know that Hendricks uses the older manuscript so he is translating according to his understand of those phrases. He does not say "Sage" in line 12 because the older manuscript does not have this.

 

First I want to mention that just after the opening is a famous idiom known to probably all chinese. It is a juxtaposition of a duality moving in a cycle: The polarity of Fortune and Misfortune; Good Luck and Bad Luck.

 

5. 禍尚福之所倚

Misfortune-Yet-Fortune-That Which-Relies

Ill fortune is that beside which good fortune lies

 

6. 福尚禍之所伏

Fortune-Yet-Misfortune-That Which-Hides

Good fortune is that beneath which all fortune lurks

 

The next line goes as:

7. 孰知其極

Who-Knows-This-Limit

Who knows the ultimate result?

 

Hendricks with "who knows where it will end" completely misses the point of this idiomatic saying and the cultural importance it carries. It has nothing to do with ending anything; it has to do with the inherent goodness inside of bad and inherent badness inside of good.

 

The famous story from the Huainanzi is usually provided an example:

 

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/Taoist_Farmer.html

[Marblehead]

 

The famous story from the Huainanzi is usually provided an example:

 

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/Taoist_Farmer.html

 

I normally refer to that as the "Fortunate/Unfortunate" story. And true, we are not talking about ends, we are talking about processes.

 

But then Chuang Tzu also talked about "Who knows where it will end?"

 

This might be a character/concept misinterpretation.

[ChiDragon]

I normally refer to that as the "Fortunate/Unfortunate" story. And true, we are not talking about ends, we are talking about processes.

 

But then Chuang Tzu also talked about "Who knows where it will end?"

 

This might be a character/concept misinterpretation.

 

LaoTze only cares for the good results.

 

Zhuang Tze couldn't careless as long it doesn't bother him.

[dawei]

I found something very interesting about the opening lines which will cause me to 'eat crow' in regards to Henrick I actually think he is closer to the original meaning.

 

First, it is obvious [to me] that the first four lines are two pairs, in opposite reaction to each other... that is why the idiom MUST come after the opening four lines, it closes off and drives home the idiomatic meaning for rulers

 

Then I realized that the first four lines should be themselves a kind of idiomatic expression... so I went on a hunt for pre-han word usages on the earlier manuscripts and I found something quite interesting. The original character at the end of line 2 is different in every manuscript (obviously everyone is trying to get at the right meaning)... but the oldest manuscript is 屯 which is Hex 3 from the Yi Jing and it equates to the idiomatic expression.

 

屯 = Sprouting; A root sprouting out of the ground for the first time encounters a struggle; but the outcome is to reach above ground to the light (light as in the last line in the chapter).

 

Hex meaning: DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING works supreme success in the end (Idiomatic)

 

What has happened is that over time, each manuscript sought to better interpret the meaning and so changed the word as follows:

 

屯 - MWD; Hendricks translates as muddied and confused; but Hex 3 means difficult [at first]

偆 - FuYi; Happy

醇 - HeSheng Gong ; Pure (like unadulterated alcohol, not alcohol radical)

淳 - WB printed by everyone but not what he used: Genuine, pure, honest

惇 - WB used this; and his notes too: Kindhearted, honest

純 - Huainanzi uses this when quoting the four lines: Pure, simple, unmixed

 

In doing so, they departed from the original idiomatic meaning and turned the first four lines into linear cause-effect instead of the polarizing effect of the idiom.

 

The first six lines are then understood in this polarized manner:

1. Government not good

2. People can still be good

 

3. Government good

4. People can still be good

 

5. Bad luck turns good luck

6. Good luck turns bad luck

 

7. Who can know [anticipate] the result?

 

With the basic idiomatic understanding down, one should then attempt to translate.

Edited August 7, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

The same thing happens at the last character, it is different in every manuscript as:

 

16.光而不燿。 - note last character

 

眺 - MWD: Gaze afar ; Eye Radical

耀 - FuYi: to shine / to dazzle / to show off / brilliant; Fire Radical

曜 - HSG: Glorious [as sun] ; Sun Radical

燿 - WB: Shine / dazzle / brilliant ; Fire Radical

 

I have not decided on the ending, but I'll raise one more item for thought concerning the three lines prior to this:

 

12.是以聖人 - Therefore the sage...

13.方而不割。- Fang

14.廉而不劌。 - Lian

15.直而不肆。 - Zhi

 

It is interesting but I am sure pure coincidence that after the line says, "there the sage..." and then each line starts as: Fang... Lian... Zhi... All of these are also surnames. Ok, back to reality...

[Marblehead]

LaoTze only cares for the good results.

 

Zhuang Tze couldn't careless as long it doesn't bother him.

 

Funny. But that might be a pretty close assessment.

[ChiDragon]

屯(Zhun1) - MWD; Hendricks translates as dull/depressed; but Hex 3 means difficult [at first]

偆 - FuYi; Happy

醇(chun2) - HeSheng Gong ; Pure (like unadulterated alcohol, not alcohol radical)

淳(chun2) - WB printed by everyone but not what he used: Simple, Genuine, pure, honest,

惇 - WB used this; and his notes too: Kindhearted, honest

純(chun2) - Huainanzi uses this when quoting the four lines: Pure, simple, unmixed

 

All these characters almost sounded alike, at different times, phonetics were used because each codex was made from an oral recital. That was why we see different characters with the same phonetics. Later scholars had discover that 淳(chun2) has the proper meaning of the character to be used in the Received copy. BTW The Received version was so close to the WB version because it was based on WB's copy.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

屯(Zhun1) - MWD; Hendricks translates as dull/depressed; but Hex 3 means difficult [at first]

偆 - FuYi; Happy

醇(chun2) - HeSheng Gong ; Pure (like unadulterated alcohol, not alcohol radical)

淳(chun2) - WB printed by everyone but not what he used: Simple, Genuine, pure, honest,

惇 - WB used this; and his notes too: Kindhearted, honest

純(chun2) - Huainanzi uses this when quoting the four lines: Pure, simple, unmixed

 

All these characters almost sounded alike, at the time, phonetic was used because the copies were made from the oral recital. That was why we see different characters with the same phonetics. Later scholars had discover that 淳(chun2) has the proper meaning of the character to be used in the Received copy. BTW The Received version was so close to the WB version because it was based on WB's copy.

Yes, that is understood; very little variation among of a few of the words; this is not uncommon. Just a shame they departed from working with the first word.

[on the path]

Hi you guys,

 

Managed to get some posts in on Stig's fa jin, interesting stuff. I've been reading your posts on this chapter. I can see now why its so difficult to get an exact meaning to what has been written of lao Tzu's original text. I should imagine that one particular pictogram could quite easily be used to mean many different things and in Lao Tzu's time it may have even had different meanings in various parts of China. It may have had a completely different meaning then (600 bc) to what we have today. I think this is the great value of what Flowing Hands has given us, we don't need to bother to struggle with the various translations and meanings of each pictogram linked to the others. We are simply given it in good old plain English. But then here I go again! Opps.

[Marblehead]

I think this is the great value of what Flowing Hands has given us, we don't need to bother to struggle with the various translations and meanings of each pictogram linked to the others. We are simply given it in good old plain English. But then here I go again! Opps.

 

Yep, that's basically what I have done after reading a number of different translations. I convert the concepts into my understandings so that they can be used in my everyday life. I like to think that I am a traveller of the Way of Tao.

[stan herman]

[Sifu Roy]

English/Feng

 

When the country is ruled with a light hand

The people are simple.

When the country is ruled with severity,

The people are cunning.

Happiness is rooted in misery.

Misery lurks beneath happiness.

Who knows what the future holds?

There is no honesty.

Honesty becomes dishonest.

Goodness becomes witchcraft.

Man's bewitchment lasts for a long time.

Therefore the sage is sharp but not cutting,

Pointed but not piercing,

Straightforward but not unrestrained,

Brilliant but not blinding.

 

 

 

Relating the subconscious mind to the country or people in this verse could be an interesting thought, I was taught that your subconscious mind is like a kid in the candy store, cunning in a way to distract you from, "being" and to enjoy calmness", alway distracting you.

[Marblehead]

 

Relating the subconscious mind to the country or people in this verse could be an interesting thought, I was taught that your subconscious mind is like a kid in the candy store, cunning in a way to distract you from, "being" and to enjoy calmness", alway distracting you.

 

Yes, the subconscious mind is a tricky thing. Lots of time it keeps us out of trouble but lots of time it tells us lies, things we were told when we were young that just are not true. This, of course, is why we are told to empty our mind. Doing that is not all that easy though.

[GOOWDAY]

察:

 

水至清则无鱼，

 

人至察则无徒．

 

 

The water too clear,then no fish.

 

The guy serious for anything,then no company .

[Marblehead]

The water too clear,then no fish.

 

The guy serious for anything,then no company .

 

Interesting concepts. True in most cases but not all.

[GOOWDAY]

缺:

 

lack,be sort of,missing;

 

其政察察，其民缺缺.

 

The law stricts a lot, More people are missing. (They just run away,like fish......hehe)

[Marblehead]

(They just run away,like fish......hehe)

 

Hehehe. My fish do that when I get into their world. They run away yelling "A monster! A monster!"

 

I wish I could enlighten them to the fact that were in not for me they would not be alive. Regretfully they don't even listen when I talk to them.

[noelle]

水至清则无鱼，

 

人至察则无徒．

 

 

The water too clear,then no fish.

 

The guy serious for anything,then no company .

 

It's famous phrase and can often hear in Korea, also I've been told so many times from my parents.

 

 

Recently I was told very interesting words from my colleague at work who studies I ching for very long time.

 

.....(not for sure if I understand and translate his words in correct but any way...)

 

He said "I can see your clearness or determined attitude reading your birth chart, can compare to "white Gold 金" ......white Gold is beautiful Gold and metal...metal can be a knife...knife is very useful tool but also can be dangerous as well...so sometimes should be sharp but also should be blunt in case....

 

Now my understanding is that it is not just talking the companies or relation with people around you, it connotes and explains the way of how you understand, percept the world around you, people, things, cases....all the things passing by you and happening around you.

 

and following question,

 

Then each of us can change ourselves and find the status of 中 (mean, medium) by controlling our nature and inclination from borne all the time and is it that important virtue?

Or is it really means a lot to each or to the whole looking it wide?

 

Well, now I believe that it's impossible and no neccessary in looking it as the whole.

Each of us is like a very small particle has own identity consisting of the whole picture of the world and universe running under the rule of Yin-medium-yang and so many variations between them.

 

"Yourself is a small universe"

 

and hello marblehead : )

I'm happy to see u here again, maybe I can't visit this forums as often as before but kept reading ur posting and others....

Edited August 11, 2011 by noelle

[Marblehead]

Well, "Hi" to you too Noelle. Nice to see you posting in the thread.

 

Great post but I want to highlight this:

 

Then each of us can change ourselves and find the status of 中 (mean, medium) by controlling our nature and inclination from borne all the time and is it that important virtue?

 

Or is it really means a lot to each or to the whole looking it wide?

 

Yes, we can control our nature. Being one who has done this I can tell you that it is a real bummer. We never find our inner peace because we are constantly fighting with ourself.

 

Now, I will suggest that a lot, if not most, of what we think our ture nature is is just stuff that has been placed in our head by others. They have convinced us that we are such-and-such.

 

Our inner being will tell us what we truely are. We need to listen.

[baiqi]

I personnaly prefer Henrick's translation: I don't see the word "happy" in the first two verses, although the idea of simplicity is linked to happiness in Daoism (which I agree with of course!). However this is an "over-translation" to me.

 

As for the Feng translation: "goodness becomes witchcraft" is simply a misunderstanding. Well, it can be understood, since 妖 is a word used for withcraft sometimes. Hoever, it is also used for "monster". Here, it seems better to me to say "goodness becomes monstruous" or something like that. Basically everything becomes it's opposite, including "good" and "evil".

 

Of course Sifu Roy is right: the "kingdom" can be the individual, this is very common in Chinese thinking, especially Daoism.

[Marblehead]

I personnaly prefer Henrick's translation: I don't see the word "happy" in the first two verses, although the idea of simplicity is linked to happiness in Daoism (which I agree with of course!). However this is an "over-translation" to me.

 

As for the Feng translation: "goodness becomes witchcraft" is simply a misunderstanding. Well, it can be understood, since 妖 is a word used for withcraft sometimes. Hoever, it is also used for "monster". Here, it seems better to me to say "goodness becomes monstruous" or something like that. Basically everything becomes it's opposite, including "good" and "evil".

 

Of course Sifu Roy is right: the "kingdom" can be the individual, this is very common in Chinese thinking, especially Daoism.

 

Excellent points. Thanks for sharing.

 

Yes, the word "happy" is one of those tricky words when used within a discussion of Taoist philosophy. Chuang Tzu had a really hard time with the word. Hehehe.

 

And I also agree that the word "monstrous" would be a far better word than "witchcraft".

 

Also agree that as "cycles" is a very important concept in Taoist philosophy it is within reason if we say that opposites, as well as all things, cycle just as surely the cycle of life and death effects every living thing.

 

And yep, the kingdom lies within.