The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[Baguakid]

Some of the Qigong/Neigong exercises I've been exposed to are:

 

1. Breath based

2. Alignment based

3. Movement based (no attention to breath or alignment)

 

 

Within the breath based group I have rapid or non-rapid (slow/normal) breathing in conjunction with movement, breathing to the lungs, breathing to the dan tian (natural or forced), breath in conjunction with postures.

 

Within the alignment based group I have several alignment based qigong exercises (between heaven and earth).

 

I've been fairly lucky to have been exposed to some of these exercise which I have not seen anywhere else.

 

With that, two of the highest level masters (Chinese) I've ever come across were of the alignment based group. However, one American I know I consider now to be in the same league as the two Chinese and he uses a combination of alignment and breath.

 

Having lived in China (mainland) I have noticed that due to culture people will rarely criticize other schools or practices, at least "officially", publically, or on paper. Privately, that's another matter.

 

Having taught English in China I have also found that, also because of culture, that Chinese generally have poor debating skills which is possibly why CD comes off the way he does.

 

Lastly, one's path and achievement is based on Yuanfen 缘份 and Wuxing 悟性. One student may spend 30 years with a teacher and have limited advancement and understanding while another may spend 6 years with the same teacher only to reach exceptional levels rivaling his/her teacher.

[ChiDragon]

Truly great ! which style ?

 

When did you start Qigong practice and was that taught by another or you put it together based on readings?

 

I am very curious as to the zazen meditation, which seems more zen buddhism based, but will like to hear your story.

dawei...

I took the Yang style 108 movements. Qigong was somthing I put together based on my Tai Ji experience and reading both Chinese materials on books written by Tai Ji masters and study physiology on my own with a very good English book. Based on the combination of all these information. I may be considered that I was enlightened in the concepts of Chi Kung.

 

I don't want to give people the impression that I am BS about my own developed Chi Kung method. I had practiced my own method for the last seven to eight years. It takes less space; and best of all, I can practice it at anytime and anywhere. It really works for me. Also, I have my wife practice it and works for her too. It helped to improve her health condition during her menopause.

 

I'm glad that you are interested. I would like to start a new thread to share it with everybody.

[ChiDragon]

Some of the Qigong/Neigong exercises I've been exposed to are:

 

1. Breath based

2. Alignment based

3. Movement based (no attention to breath or alignment)

 

 

Within the breath based group I have rapid or non-rapid (slow/normal) breathing in conjunction with movement, breathing to the lungs, breathing to the dan tian (natural or forced), breath in conjunction with postures.

 

Within the alignment based group I have several alignment based qigong exercises (between heaven and earth).

 

I've been fairly lucky to have been exposed to some of these exercise which I have not seen anywhere else.

 

With that, two of the highest level masters (Chinese) I've ever come across were of the alignment based group. However, one American I know I consider now to be in the same league as the two Chinese and he uses a combination of alignment and breath.

 

Having lived in China (mainland) I have noticed that due to culture people will rarely criticize other schools or practices, at least "officially", publically, or on paper. Privately, that's another matter.

 

Having taught English in China I have also found that, also because of culture, that Chinese generally have poor debating skills which is possibly why CD comes off the way he does.

 

Lastly, one's path and achievement is based on Yuanfen 缘份 and Wuxing 悟性. One student may spend 30 years with a teacher and have limited advancement and understanding while another may spend 6 years with the same teacher only to reach exceptional levels rivaling his/her teacher.

Baguakid...

You know when I first saw your nickname, I got curious about you. Now you have spoken to reveal yourself to give me an opportunity to understand you and your personality. It was amazing after one listen to the words used by a person, right away, one can get the first impression of that person.

 

Thank you for your comments, they are very true about my personality. Besides, it was more related to personality than cultural in my case. I like your comments about Yuanfen 缘份 and Wuxing 悟性. I am always curious and tried to find a good English word for this character 缘. Based on your Chinese and English knowledge, can you come up with an English word for me...?? Thanks...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited August 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

1. It isn't simply about my mind being made up. I write from personal experience, not simply from what I have read. You could have said from your experience you disagree-that would have been fair enough. The impolite comments directed at my teachers were uncalled for.

 

2. Frankly, bullshit. You have little knowledge of who I've learned from, what lineages or how correct or incorrect that instruction was. I have no doubt regarding what I've been taught because it has delivered results. In regards to the Hunyuan method, I have quoted the Grandmaster himself on this. I have learned it from direct family members and students. You have no right to be so rude about these people.

 

Sharing is good and most welcome. I hope we can all do that and also be polite to each other while we do.

 

1. The impolite comments directed at my teachers were uncalled for.

It sure did came out that way, wasn't it...??? Sorry, I did not make myself understood. Anyway, at times, when I made comments was about the issues but not the persons that are involved.

 

2. I was not really against the other method or style. It was just the way that I saw the story had changed and not exactly transposed into English.

 

The reason for this dilemma, here, was my stubbornness for sticking to my own definitions. The trouble comes from that I had tried to compare my definition with others. In my mind, I like to keep everything in perspective with consistency. Thus it becomes very sensitive when I see other definitions were not consistent with mine. Unfortunately, I must admit this is one of my weaknesses which need to be cultivated. Peace and thanks.

[ChiDragon]

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[The Way Is Virtue]

No offense, since you had brought it up, we don't call you "laowai", 老外, for nothing...

 

'Laowai' doesn't seem too derogatory. Or is it? In Cantonese they call foreigners 'Gwai Lo', which I think means something like demon or ghost. I have learned a little Cantonese in the past and I have been surprised how often I have heard staff in Chinese restaurants or Chinese stores referring to customers as 'Gwai Lo', or even using various swear words in Cantonese in reference to the customers as well, apparently assuming that Westerners have no idea what they are saying. It's a strange world we line in.

Edited August 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi, The Way Is Virtue

1. Thanks for trying. I already have those definitions; but I am not happy with them. What I want is a single word for it and as close as possible.

 

So, the word 'predestined' is not close in meaning for 'yuan' in this context?

Edited August 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

So, the word 'predestined' is not close in meaning for 'yuan' in this context?

Yes and no. As an adjective is correct but I am looking for a noun.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes and no. As an adjective is correct but I am looking for a noun.

 

I see. A possible noun might be 'reason', as something is caused for a reason, but maybe that is not right either. This laowai has poor wuxing in regards to the Chinese language.

Edited August 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

'Laowai' doesn't seem too derogatory. Or is it? In Cantonese they call foreigners 'Gwai Lo', which I think means something like demon or ghost. I have learned a little Cantonese in the past and I have been surprised how often I have heard staff in Chinese restaurants or Chinese stores referring to customers as 'Gwai Lo', or even using various swear words in Cantonese in reference to the customers as well, apparently assuming that Westerners have no idea what they are saying. It's a strange world we line in.

 

'Laowai' was referred to as a foreigner. It is a little bit derogatory. In a way, it has an implication of "what you foreigners know...???"....

 

 

"I see. A possible noun might be 'reason', as something is caused for a reason, but maybe that is not right either."

 

Sorry, Laowai, you were way off.... :D

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[The Way Is Virtue]

'Laowai' was referred to as a foreigner. It is a little bit derogatory. In a way, it has an implication of "what you foreigners know...???"....

 

Not too much... We are just ghost demons after all.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I see. A possible noun might be 'reason', as something is caused for a reason, but maybe that is not right either. This laowai has poor wuxing in regards to the Chinese language.

 

Another possible noun might be 'destiny' but that is really similar in meaning to 'fate'.

[ChiDragon]

This is a good answer,

I see you understand the foundation in breathing.

Is there something beyond when you reach the abdominal breathing?

Q

 

Friend...

This is the whole foundation for Chi Kung. The abdominal breathing is the ultimate goal of Chi Kung. To go beyond that is to make it as your natural breathing habit...

[ChiDragon]

Another possible noun might be 'destiny' but that is really similar in meaning to 'fate'.

What I am looking for is something referred back to compound characters in yuanfen 缘份. It means like we are meant to be met or mean to be together. "Meant to be" was the meaning I was after.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

PS...

I like your last remark about 'Gwai Lo'.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[The Way Is Virtue]

This is the whole foundation for Chi Kung. The abdominal breathing is the ultimate goal of Chi Kung. To go beyond that is to make it as your natural breathing habit...

 

Hi ChiDragon. A person certainly can't get away from breathing anyway, so breathing is certainly always a part of qigong. As a couple of people have mentioned, there are forms of qigong where no special breathing is taught, both static and dynamic. One just either sits or stands or does the movements and calms the mind and does not pay any attention to breathing. That doesn't mean that breathing does not change naturally over time as progress is made in one's practice. Breathing will begin to change naturally over time in my experience, naturally becoming much deeper and slower and softer (and synchronized to movements if one is doing movements). To me, what is natural in regards to breathing means what is natural at a person's current level. As a person progresses in the qigong practice what is natural for breathing may change to become abdominal breathing or even reverse abdominal breathing, and maybe even become foetal breathing or body breathing where one seems to be almost not breathing through the nose at all.

 

I agree with others however that qi (氣 or 气) , although literally meaning 'air' or 'gas' or 'vital breath', is often translated by both traditional and modern Chinese teachers of qigong as 'vital energy' or 'life force' or similar. I understand you are objecting to this definition and prefer a more literal definition of the term, but various chinese qigong teachers do seem to use a definition similar to 'vital energy'. It is not just westerners who use this definition.

Best wishes...

[The Way Is Virtue]

What I am looking for is something referred back to compound characters in yuanfen 缘份. It means like we are meant to be met or mean to be together. "Meant to be" was the meaning I was after.

Thanks again.

PS...

I like your last remark about 'Gwai Lo'.

 

Hi ChiDragon. Yes both 'destiny' and 'fate' have the meaning of 'meant to be', so that may be close to what you are looking for...

[dawei]

Hi ChiDragon. Yes both 'destiny' and 'fate' have the meaning of 'meant to be', so that may be close to what you are looking for...

I agree. I usually see yuan fen as 'fate' , 'fated' , 'destiny, 'destined', depending on context.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon. A person certainly can't get away from breathing anyway, so breathing is certainly always a part of qigong. As a couple of people have mentioned, there are forms of qigong where no special breathing is taught, both static and dynamic. One just either sits or stands or does the movements and calms the mind and does not pay any attention to breathing. That doesn't mean that breathing does not change naturally over time as progress is made in one's practice. Breathing will begin to change naturally over time in my experience, naturally becoming much deeper and slower and softer (and synchronized to movements if one is doing movements). To me, what is natural in regards to breathing means what is natural at a person's current level. As a person progresses in the qigong practice what is natural for breathing may change to become abdominal breathing or even reverse abdominal breathing, and maybe even become foetal breathing or body breathing where one seems to be almost not breathing through the nose at all.

 

I agree with others however that qi (氣 or 气) , although literally meaning 'air' or 'gas' or 'vital breath', is often translated by both traditional and modern Chinese teachers of qigong as 'vital energy' or 'life force' or similar. I understand you are objecting to this definition and prefer a more literal definition of the term, but various chinese qigong teachers do seem to use a definition similar to 'vital energy'. It is not just westerners who use this definition.

Best wishes...

 

I know what you are saying about the other things are Qigong. The problem with it, it just meant to be come out that way in English because that was how the English speaking Chinese Qigong masters expressed it. In my side of the story, the native Qigong masters did not express the same way as in English.

 

Another problem was that I cannot accept it due to the inconsistency from everyone of them. To me, the qi in qigong means "breathing" and Qigong is the breathing method. Anything outside of that will throw me off. It just won't work for me. They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi". It is very chaotic to me. I am working very well with my own narrow definition.

 

It may be referred as 'vital energy' but it is not something that we can breathe into our lungs. We can only breathe in air into our lungs. Qi may be referred as 'vital energy' only if we are talking about physiology but not in breathing.

 

If people say "breathe in the heaven qi" or "earth qi". It makes no sense to me because it says: Breathe in the vital energy from heaven or earth. Do you see what I am saying...???

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I agree. I usually see yuan fen as 'fate' , 'fated' , 'destiny, 'destined', depending on context.

Hi, guys

 

Let's see is this correct...???

 

1. We are here together was by fate.

2. It was our destiny for us being together.

[dawei]

It may be referred as 'vital energy' but it is not something that we can breathe into our lungs. We can only breath in air into our lungs. Qi may be referred as 'vital energy' only if we are talking about physiology but not in breathing.

 

If people say "breathe in the heaven qi" or "earth qi". It makes no sense to me because it says: Breath in the vital energy from heaven or earth. Do you see what I am saying.

I follow your point and I think it is correct on the level where Qi means breath, but I see lots of examples where this falls apart (as a limited definition); but I suspect you'll just say your talking 'Qi' aspect of Qigong not generalized Qi?

 

I'll just give one example but it may fall outside of what your trying to show: There is Qi in food. We get rid of the food yet the Qi is utilized by the body. Qi on air has the same effect. You can separate the Qi from the air; as is taught in our Medical Qigong program; "Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

 

I do agree with your point here:

"They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi".

 

But it's not chaotic to me, it makes sense when I see the various aspects of Qi.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Well just to throw some more into the mix

 

功 gong is often translated as 'work', 'effort', meaning work or effort over time. This gives the implication that qigong is a method that works with qi. If your definition of qi is 'breath' this would imply a breathing method, or working with the breath/breathing.

 

But gong (as any Chinese word) doesn't translate so easily or simply into English. It means [good]result, achievement, accomplishment, just as much. This presents (in English) a different view, now qigong is about the achievement/accomplishment relating to qi. Staying with the definition of qi as 'breath' this no longer implies working with the breath or a breathing method. Instead it is more a recognition of good and efficient breathing. Here there is nothing that adheres this development to specifically working with the breath, just that the practices undertaken result in improved and more efficient breathing.

 

The first view means qigong is all about breathing, the second does not. Even if the definition of qi is the same, all that is changed is the understanding (in English) of the variances of meaning of gong.

 

Looking at the possibilities of understanding from the different meanings of the terms can be interesting. And some teachers use this as a way of passing on teachings. But ultimately definitions need and rely upon context, no context, or taken out of context and the meaning falls apart. There has never been a singularly accepted definition of these cultivation terms in China, reading the past texts of Daoism, Buddhism, and the medical tradition makes that clear. As well as looking at the development of the characters themselves.

 

Best,

[LBDaoist]

Personally, I resonate more with Ya Mu's definition of qigong and it does not involve breathing.

 

Anyone who claims to be practicing qigong without breathing is not doing qigong, they are doing something else and have simply stolen the term and applied to what they do. There are a multitude of energy practices out there, so maybe Ya Mu is into one of those. He / she isn't doing qigong.

[Baguakid]

Anyone who claims to be practicing qigong without breathing is not doing qigong, they are doing something else and have simply stolen the term and applied to what they do. There are a multitude of energy practices out there, so maybe Ya Mu is into one of those. He / she isn't doing qigong.

 

That's a pure and utter BS answer and completely incorrect.