The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[LBDaoist]

1. We are here together was by fate.

2. It was our destiny for us being together.

 

1. Fate brought us together.

 

or

 

1. We were brought together by fate.

 

2. We were destined to be together.

 

or

 

2. It was our destiny to be together.

[ChiDragon]

Well just to throw some more into the mix

 

1. 功 gong is often translated as 'work', 'effort', meaning work or effort over time. This gives the implication that qigong is a method that works with qi. If your definition of qi is 'breath' this would imply a breathing method, or working with the breath/breathing.

 

2. But gong (as any Chinese word) doesn't translate so easily or simply into English. It means [good]result, achievement, accomplishment, just as much. This presents (in English) a different view, now qigong is about the achievement/accomplishment relating to qi. Staying with the definition of qi as 'breath' this no longer implies working with the breath or a breathing method. Instead it is more a recognition of good and efficient breathing. Here there is nothing that adheres this development to specifically working with the breath, just that the practices undertaken result in improved and more efficient breathing.

 

The first view means qigong is all about breathing, the second does not. Even if the definition of qi is the same, all that is changed is the understanding (in English) of the variances of meaning of gong.

 

Looking at the possibilities of understanding from the different meanings of the terms can be interesting. And some teachers use this as a way of passing on teachings. But ultimately definitions need and rely upon context, no context, or taken out of context and the meaning falls apart. There has never been a singularly accepted definition of these cultivation terms in China, reading the past texts of Daoism, Buddhism, and the medical tradition makes that clear. As well as looking at the development of the characters themselves.

 

Best,

 

Very good. I was thinking about the same thing during my lunch.

 

If I look at it objectively:

1. It would be the fundamental definition to work with as the method or procedure to get to 2.

 

2. It is the result that we are tried to achieve from Chi Kung.

 

IMO The first definition fits prefect for the definition of Chi Kung as opposed to the second. In the Chinese language, the second definition was, only, applied to the scholastic achievements. Therefore, we can eliminate the second definition as the basic meaning for Chi Kung by deductive reasoning.

[ChiDragon]

That's a pure and utter BS answer and completely incorrect.

Easy...

I do agree with LBDaoist based on my undeniable definition of Chi Kung.

 

 

@ LBDaoist...

Thank you for your feedback on "Fate".....

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Baguakid]

Easy...

I do agree with LBDaoist based on my undeniable definition of Chi Kung.

 

Your definition of Qigong is incorrect whatever that definition is.

 

No breath Qigong:

 

No breath Qigong

[寒月 Hanyue]

Very good.

 

Glad my post meets your approval

 

If I look at it objectively:

1. It would be the fundamental definition to work with as the method or procedure to get to 2.

 

2. It is the result that we are tried to achieve from Chi Kung.

 

Yes, this is partly my point. In Chinese both meanings are implied by the characters, they are inherently there within the term. In English, depending on which words are used to convey part of the meaning it can create a difference in understanding and meaning.

 

IMO The first definition fits prefect for the definition of Chi Kung as opposed to the second. In the Chinese language, the second definition was, only, applied to the scholastic achievements. Therefore, we can eliminate the second definition as the basic meaning for Chi Kung by deductive reasoning.

 

Er, can you explain why the second definition is only applied to scholastic achievements and is not relevant to [qi]gong?

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

Glad my post meets your approval

 

 

 

Yes, this is partly my point. In Chinese both meanings are implied by the characters, they are inherently there within the term. In English, depending on which words are used to convey part of the meaning it can create a difference in understanding and meaning.

 

 

 

Er, can you explain why the second definition is only applied to scholastic achievements and is not relevant to [qi]gong?

 

Best,

 

I guess it has something to do with the Chinese thinking linguistically. I cannot really come up with a good reason. This is the way it has been used.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

Anyone who claims to be practicing qigong without breathing is not doing qigong..

 

If what you mean is that cultivation practices that do not intentionally focus upon and work upon the breath are not "qigong", then this is simply incorrect. If for no other reason than the explanations given by the group who came up with using the term "qigong" to refer to all the different cultivation practices in the first place. And how does anyone do anything without breathing anyway? let alone qigong? I'm just kidding. I know what you intended to say

 

Qigong along with medicine in China has been going through a massive re-interpretation with re-definition of the terms associated with it for the last 50 years. Nothing wrong with it, but it should be acknowledged, and it is easy checkable by anyone who wants to bother looking into it. Meanings change, definitions change, why? because context changes. For every respected teacher that can be quoted using one definition, you will find others using another, and some that use several depending on the when/who/what in the present when they speak.

 

Given that copyright issues in China are virtually non-existant, authors on qigong and Chinese medicine frequently not only copy each other but actually copy and paste text directly from each others books. This means that a lot of what is published, even texts with official party sanction, end up repeating the same without ever checking the veracity of the information. This comes from people I know who work in China within the publishing industry.

 

Yes there are many mis-conceptions regarding "qigong", as this thread is proving, but everyone wants to only accept the understanding that they currently have. I have had my understanding and definitions of what I thought I knew shattered several times by high level teachers. These days, I listen to their explanations and definitions, and try not to have any of my own so much. Maybe when I am older and have much much more experience I will have come to my own "definitions". In the meantime I will work on the experiences that take me there and not worry about specific definitions that will limit the possibilities of experience that comes from cultivation.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I guess it has something to do with the Chinese thinking linguistically. I cannot really come up with a good reason. This is the way it has been used.

 

Fair enough. I'll talk to my friends and see if anyone knows.

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

Your definition of Qigong is incorrect whatever that definition is.

 

No breath Qigong:

 

No breath Qigong

 

You may go to page one and read about the definition of Chi Kung. I will abide by this definition for the rest of my life. I am not here to argue what is not Qigong but what it is to me.

 

If you don't think Tai Chi is Chi Kung or pushing hand is not Chi Kung. I will not argue about that because I am really tired of arguing that Chi Kung is not breathing.

 

Based on your presentation here, I will respect how much you know about about Chi Kung. I am getting to a point that no matter what people want to call it as long they are doing it and get the best result of out it. May be sometimes in the future that you might change your mind about the two videos.

 

BTW The reason I created this thread was to share with the someone that are in sync with my definition of Chi Kung. Anyone who has any comment, even it was not within the scope of this thread are welcome too. However, I am glad to hear it but will not argue about it. Thanks.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. I follow your point and I think it is correct on the level where Qi means breath, but I see lots of examples where this falls apart (as a limited definition); but I suspect you'll just say your talking 'Qi' aspect of Qigong not generalized Qi?

 

2. I'll just give one example but it may fall outside of what your trying to show: There is Qi in food. We get rid of the food yet the Qi is utilized by the body. Qi on air has the same effect. You can separate the Qi from the air; as is taught in our Medical Qigong program; "Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

 

I do agree with your point here:

"They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi".

 

But it's not chaotic to me, it makes sense when I see the various aspects of Qi.

dawei...

I think we are going somewhere here which will lead us into the climax of this thread.

1. The "Qi" is referring to air and breathing.

 

2. Thank you for give me good examples to be discussed.

a. The Qi in the foods was referred as the nutrients, minerals and vitamins.

 

b. The Qi in the air may be referred as oxygen and other things.

The ancient said:

"Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

 

Actually, the modern people are saying:

Exhale the carbon dioxide and retain the oxygen.

 

PS....

All the 'Qi's mentioned here are the sources of energy rather than the energy itself.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Baguakid]

You may go to page one and read about the definition of Chi Kung. I will abide by this definition for the rest of my life. I am not here to argue what is not Qigong but what it is to me.

 

If you don't think Tai Chi is Chi Kung or pushing hand is not Chi Kung. I will not argue about that because I am really tired of arguing that Chi Kung is not breathing.

 

Based on your presentation here, I will respect how much you know about about Chi Kung. I am getting to a point that no matter what people want to call it as long they are doing it and get the best result of out it. May be sometimes in the future that you might change your mind about the two videos.

 

BTW The reason I created this thread was to share with the someone that are in sync with my definition of Chi Kung. Anyone who has any comment, even it was not within the scope of this thread are welcome too. However, I am glad to hear it but will not argue about it. Thanks.

 

 

You're the one who is giving absolutes here. The title of the thread is "The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung". Which come off as an authority to the true definition of Qigong. You're saying exercises having only to do with breath are Qigong which is an absolute absurdity. Qigong encompasses a large scope of techniques including and excluding breathing.

To say real Qigong only uses breath not only discounts a wide array of Chinese schools of Qigong (Taoist, Buddhist, Martial) it's insulting to those who practice such non-breath techniques, akin to saying they are ShenJingBing 神经病.

 

If you don't want to receive such replies then title your Qigong thread something like: "How Breath Qigong has helped me" or something like that but you can't just tell everyone else that what they are doing is krap-o-la. 明白了吗?.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Baguakid...

My problem was that you had labeled "no breath Qigong" for the two videos. I am still trying to digest that. As far as I know, with my Tai Chi experience, pushing hand requires special breathing from the practice in the past. There is an old martial saying: "Have Chi have strength" 有氣有力. While moving the arms and legs, at the same time one has to be breathing deeply and slowly. May be you have not noticed that in your practice. If you don't that special breathing, you will become weaken as you burnt up your body energy.

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. What you then thinking ChiDragon of sending and absorbing Qi

as this is also part of Qigong archievement.

2. Also what you put your awareness when you do your Qigong.

3. Do you use imagination?

4. What is difference between someone who do breath work and slow movement

5. in contrast to Qigong/TaiChi arcording to you definition, is slow sport with correct biomechanics and breathing Qigong in your terms or why not?

 

Q

"sending and absorbing Qi",

1. Sending Chi would be breathing air into my body by inhalation; and absorbing Qi would absorbing oxygen. Yes, it is also part of Qigong achievement.

 

2. The only awareness was to concentrate on my breathing and movements.

 

3. I do not use imagination, that will distract my concentration.

 

4. The "breath work and slow movement" cannot be separated. It is the combination of the Dynamic Chi Kung. One can do breath work as Static Chi Kung without the slow movement. As far as the slow movement was concern, it was recommended for a novice in Tai Ji.

 

5. I am not quite sure what you are asking, would you please rephrase the question...??? Thanks.

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

b. The Qi in the air may be referred as oxygen and other things.

The ancient said:

"Exhale the air but retain the Qi".

 

Actually, the modern people are saying:

Exhale the carbon dioxide and retain the oxygen.

So is your interpretation of Iron Shirt practice nothing more than packing oxygen (retained Qi) and eventually creating a layer of oxygen (retained Qi) around the mid-section to form like a solid wall (of Qi=Oxygen)?

 

All the 'Qi's mentioned here are the sources of energy rather than the energy itself.

At least we're closer to talking about Qi and energy. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about it in this way: Electromagnet energy is constantly being produced in the body by biochemical reaction and circulated by electromotive forces (EMF); that Qi is bioelectricity or EMF.

 

The surprising discovery about Qigong is that the mind (thinking/intent/visualization) is also an EMF.

 

But Qi has broad application. In the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine it is talked about as: flow of Qi, Yang Qi, stagnant Qi (caused by dampness), dispersed Qi (caused by winter), lost Qi (caused by summer).

 

And comments like this are not explained by "breath" or "air":

"As the sun sets, Yang Qi moves inward".

"Sweetness disturbs the heart Qi"

"The Qi of the zhang organs form the five spirits and the five emotions"

"Emotions injure the Qi"

Edited August 9, 2011 by dawei

[Baguakid]

Baguakid...

My problem was that you had labeled "no breath Qigong" for the two videos. I am still trying to digest that. As far as I know, with my Tai Chi experience, pushing hand requires special breathing from the practice in the past. There is an old martial saying: "Have Chi have strength" 有氣有力. While moving the arms and legs, at the same time one has to be breathing deeply and slowly. May be you have not noticed that in your practice. If you don't that special breathing, you will become weaken as you burnt up your body energy.

 

The problem you're having is you have not been exposed to what I have shown you. You therefore cannot get your mind around it. But don't feel bad, many students who are in direct contact don't understand as well.

 

Remember also, Qi follows Yi, blood follows Qi. There is no "breath" in that statement.

 

Look deeper my friend. Empty your cup.

[ChiDragon]

1. So is your interpretation of Iron Shirt practice nothing more than packing oxygen (retained Qi) and eventually creating a layer of oxygen (retained Qi) around the mid-section to form like a solid wall (of Qi=Oxygen)?

 

2. At least we're closer to talking about Qi and energy. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about it in this way: Electromagnet energy is constantly being produced in the body by biochemical reaction and circulated by electromotive forces (EMF); that Qi is bioelectricity or EMF.

 

The surprising discovery about Qigong is that the mind (thinking/intent/visualization) is also an EMF.

 

3. But Qi has broad application. In the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine it is talked about as: flow of Qi, Yang Qi, stagnant Qi (caused by dampness), dispersed Qi (caused by winter), lost Qi (caused by summer).

 

4. And comments like this are not explained by "breath" or "air":

"As the sun sets, Yang Qi moves inward".

"Sweetness disturbs the heart Qi"

"The Qi of the zhang organs form the five spirits and the five emotions"

"Emotions injure the Qi"

 

1. So far, this only a general discussion about what Chi externally, I haven't got into what is taken place inside the body biologically. Besides, iron shirt is beyond my knowledge here.

 

2. It may be EMF. My main concern here about Chi Kung is strictly for health reason and how it is effecting my body.

 

3. TCM is outside the scope of this thread, this is not the place for me to discuss it.

 

4. Those are the description terms people used in TCM, they did not make much sense to me.

[ChiDragon]

Remember also, Qi follows Yi, blood follows Qi. There is no "breath" in that statement.

 

Look deeper my friend. Empty your cup.

I am abide by my definition of Chi which is "air and breath".

There are oxygen(Chi) flowing in the blood for the air(Chi) that we breathe.

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

3. I do not use imagination, that will distract my concentration.

I think this explains the issue; you break your own fundamental definition which said Qigong includes using Yi (意) which "mind" is not the translated word I would use in qigong. As well, I would not translate Qi as "breathing". So your english explanation already deviates in two words and your own explanation shows you don't use "Yi" because it 'distracts' you.

 

You earlier mentioned how the meanings of Qi are chaotic to you. I can draw some better conclusions now. I think you've come up with something based on Tai Ji and created your own Qigong within the parameters your thinking and mind can handle. Your practicing essentially novice practices and movements for 20+ years. There is actually nothing wrong with that, but once you try to claim what is Qigong based on this, then the problems natural show themself.

 

I suspect your using physical practices but not really energetic nor spiritual nor shen level ideas. In other words, you followed the communist party directions to take the 'spirit[ual]' out of TCM There is a reason they banned Fa Lun Gong and then everything related to Qigong ran back into a mouse hole to hide.

 

Here are your words:

 

特點是強調與意氣相結合的肢體操作。

especially, emphasized on the body exercise with the combination of Yi(mind) and Chi(breathing). -- Chidragon

 

意 - a thought / an idea / sentiments / intention / inclination / expectations / meaning / a hint / suggestion

 

In Qigong, it is probably better understood as 'focused mental intention'.

 

Anybody can do novice practices with proper Qigong breathing. I might suggest that without proper Qigong intention (Yi), one can probably not go to higher levels.

 

Just take one book for example: Mantak Chia's Inner Smile and Six Healing Sounds Practices. The entire practice is heavily dependent on Yi; what can also be called imagination and visualization in Qigong practice and healing (not just self healing).

Edited August 9, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

The Yi is spontaneous, as soon the Yi was initiated, you breathe and move the arms and legs before you knew it without any imagination. Imagination to me is to think before and determine what do I want to do with my hands and legs.

 

I think Friend's meaning about "imagination" in his original question is different then the way you have it.

 

There is form of meditation which requires imagination. I was assuming that was what he meant.

[Baguakid]

I am abide by my definition of Chi which is "air and breath".

There are oxygen(Chi) flowing in the blood for the air(Chi) that we breathe.

 

OMG.... LOL

[dawei]

The Yi is spontaneous, as soon the Yi was initiated, you breathe and move the arms and legs before you knew it without any imagination. Imagination to me is to think before and determine what do I want to do with my hands and legs.

 

I think Friend's meaning about "imagination" in his original question is different then the way you have it.

 

There is form of meditation which requires imagination. I was assuming that was what he meant.

We are talking about QIGONG. Imagine the wide world it covers. I infer your world is very, very small; moving arms about is EXTERNAL Qigong. This is novice practice. That is my point.

[ChiDragon]

We are talking about QIGONG. Imagine the wide world it covers. I infer your world is very, very small; moving arms about is EXTERNAL Qigong. This is novice practice. That is my point.

You left out my mentioning of breathing.

 

I haven't talked about levels of practice yet. This is just barely the beginning, I thought we are still in the primary discussion.

 

BTW What is your definition of a non-novice practice....???

 

Edited to add:

What is EXTERNAL Qigong...???

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

You left out my mentioning of breathing.

You have talked 7 pages of breathing. I have not left it out in totality.

 

I haven't talked about levels of practice yet. This is just barely the beginning, I thought we are still in the primary discussion.

That is what I said. And you said we are at the climax but have not moved on. So I pushed it along...

 

BTW What is your definition of a non-novice practice....???

I really don't know this term but understand it. Novice first worries movements or mechanics alone; then add in breath. This can carry someone a lifetime, if they want to stay there. There is a world "beyond breath" which is what Qigong is about.

 

Edited to add:

What is EXTERNAL Qigong...???

Seriously? Ok.

 

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

 

They further note that the "external" involves the ability to do "Qi emission and transmission" to "direct, harmonize, and treat an illness".

 

My question to you is as follows:

1. Is your practice external as defined above?

2. Has that practice included Muscle/Tendon, Bone Marrow, or Iron Shirt practices?

3. Has that practice included Qi emission and transmission to harmonize or treat an illness in another person?

 

I will let this stand as a Level 1,2,3 for External Qigong. The problem is that it does require Internal Qigong to achieve level 2 or 3.

 

I offer the following categories of Qigong, but this is a chinese source:

1. Scholar Qigong - for maintain health

2. Medical Qigong - for health and healing, including others; emission and transmission to others for healing

3. Martial Qigong - for fighting

4. Religious Qigong - Enlightenment or Buddhahood

5. Buddha Qigong - for Buddhahood

6. Tibetan Qigong - for Buddhahood

7. Daoist Qigong - for Enlightenment

 

I think you are a "scholar qigong" follower; what we can find in regards to even Confucius or Mozi.

 

In fact, I think "Energy" work itself goes way beyond this... and I have see some aspects of this beyond.

Edited August 9, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

A. You have talked 7 pages of breathing. I have not left it out in totality.

 

B. That is what I said. And you said we are at the climax but have not moved on. So I pushed it along...

 

C. I really don't know this term but understand it. Novice first worries movements or mechanics alone; then add in breath. This can carry someone a lifetime, if they want to stay there. There is a world "beyond breath" which is what Qigong is about.

 

 

Seriously? Ok.

 

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

D. 外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

E. 外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

 

A. OK.

 

B. I can't go on like this because the terminology in English was completely different in Chinese. I know why we don't think alike because we are isolated with a new language barrier between us.

 

The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says:

D. 外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice].

E. 外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic.

 

You see there are some discrepancies in the terms D and E between the Chines and English which threw me off.

 

D. 外功 to me is external practice; External Qigong means 外氣功 which makes no sense to a Chinese speaker.

 

E. I am totally lost by the word "Qigong" in the description despite to the 外功.

 

Now, I know why the Western Qigong practitioners say breathing is not necessarily associated with "Qigong"