The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[ChiDragon]

1.This are wise words - do you have a hint/s to reach this and what is the goal you are after in the moment?

5.What if the western methods apply the rules of Qigong,(edit) can it be called Qigong then in your sense?

 

Q

1. It would be a wishful thinking on my part to be elevated to this level. I don't believe it would be practical for me to dedicate all my time to reach this goal. Besides, I may not find a teacher without relocate.

 

If I have to give you a hint to fulfill your curiosity, I would say I need to find a way to generate the body energy many many times more than normal to be emitted externally.

 

5. The rules of Qigong cannot be applied to the western methods because I've already pointed out the contrast between the two methods. Basically, the breathing and body movements in the western methods, such as boxing and aerobic, are jumping and moving at a higher speed. Despite to the Chi Kung method which require the feet to be on the ground at all times. Hence, jumping restricts the western method from appling to the rules of Chi Kung. Further more, some of the positions in callanetics do not allow the performance of abdominal breathing.

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[LBDaoist]

Watching this thread has been tiring as I observe a few strong egos trying to assert their interpretations of how things are supposed to be.

 

Here are some things to consider. One of the most basic internal practices begins with using the mind to tune the breathing. Through that practice, the mind and the body become harmonized. It has been my experience that only when the mind and breathing are tuned can the mind then be EFFECTIVELY used to lead the qi to extremities and circulate it.

 

Now, once a person has practiced for some time and developed some ability, the mind can be used to lead the qi by itself. Yet that point CANNOT be reached without first going through the practice using the breathing to lead the qi. It's like expecting a baby to run before it has even mastered crawling. The legs are not strong enough and it will fall flat on its face.

 

Given that, when I read people here saying "Qigong doesn't have to involve breathing." I laugh. It most certainly does. It's like saying, "Drinking does not involve swallowing." Or "Walking does not involve lifting your feet."

 

And for the record, I practice both iron shirt and iron palm, along with dynamic tension exercises from Hung Gar... in addition to less strenuous, 8 brocade style qigong, and tai chi ball exercises.

[Aetherous]

Given that, when I read people here saying "Qigong doesn't have to involve breathing." I laugh. It most certainly does. It's like saying, "Drinking does not involve swallowing." Or "Walking does not involve lifting your feet."

 

It most certainly doesn't. Breathing and respiration are completely different things. "Breath" and breathing are completely different things. Qigong has to do with breath and respiration...not necessarily breathing.

[dawei]

I think this is the "no breathing" being described:

 

The Way of Qigong - Chapter Section: Embyronic Respiration

[henro]

Watching this thread has been tiring as I observe a few strong egos trying to assert their interpretations of how things are supposed to be.

 

Here are some things to consider. One of the most basic internal practices begins with using the mind to tune the breathing. Through that practice, the mind and the body become harmonized. It has been my experience that only when the mind and breathing are tuned can the mind then be EFFECTIVELY used to lead the qi to extremities and circulate it.

 

Now, once a person has practiced for some time and developed some ability, the mind can be used to lead the qi by itself. Yet that point CANNOT be reached without first going through the practice using the breathing to lead the qi. It's like expecting a baby to run before it has even mastered crawling. The legs are not strong enough and it will fall flat on its face.

 

Given that, when I read people here saying "Qigong doesn't have to involve breathing." I laugh. It most certainly does. It's like saying, "Drinking does not involve swallowing." Or "Walking does not involve lifting your feet."

 

And for the record, I practice both iron shirt and iron palm, along with dynamic tension exercises from Hung Gar... in addition to less strenuous, 8 brocade style qigong, and tai chi ball exercises.

 

 

The thread has kind of moved sideways from Chidragon's initial assertion that Qi is breath, and breath only, and that Qigong is only working with breath. The idea that qigong could be done without any specific breath work was only used as an example to refute his claims.

[LBDaoist]

I think this is the "no breathing" being described:

 

The Way of Qigong - Chapter Section: Embyronic Respiration

 

Yet it still refers to breathing and respiration. What point are you trying to make by separating breathing from qigong? Qi is life force. Qigong is about cultivating and improving the quality of life, the quality of energy in the body. The body breathes. That is what it does.

 

I just see a bunch of silliness here. What's next? Talking about circulating the blood without the heart beating? Maybe we can talk about digestion-gong that does not involve the stomach at some point.

[LBDaoist]

It most certainly doesn't. Breathing and respiration are completely different things. "Breath" and breathing are completely different things. Qigong has to do with breath and respiration...not necessarily breathing.

 

So you're splitting semantic hairs, with a guy who does not speak English as his native language and is trying to positively contribute by translating the native Chinese? Nice.

[Aetherous]

I just see a bunch of silliness here. What's next? Talking about circulating the blood without the heart beating? Maybe we can talk about digestion-gong that does not involve the stomach at some point.

 

Respiration without breathing in and out is a sign of high achievement, and is actually the practice that many Taoist breathing texts were attempting to convey. In fact, they actually put down the breathing process through the nose or mouth...saying it's a way that inferior people breathe.

 

I guess I don't really care whether you recognize this or not, but it's a very unique thing to experience...and it's true. I've personally experienced it in very clear ways, so it's not "silliness". It's something the body is capable of doing. It has profound effects upon the mind, instantly enlightening it. It is extremely good for the body, whereas calmly breathing in and out is only average in its effect.

 

This should motivate you, if you already practice breathing and haven't experienced anything substantial like this, to find a more correct way to practice.

[Aetherous]

So you're splitting semantic hairs, with a guy who does not speak English as his native language and is trying to positively contribute by translating the native Chinese? Nice.

 

It's not semantic splitting hairs. The two practices are worlds apart. In one, you're breathing. In the other, you're not.

 

I hold nothing against ChiDragon, or Chinese people who want to help with language issues. That's appreciated. But he is wrong in this thread, for more reasons than what I've personally argued...

[dawei]

Yet it still refers to breathing and respiration. What point are you trying to make by separating breathing from qigong? Qi is life force. Qigong is about cultivating and improving the quality of life, the quality of energy in the body. The body breathes. That is what it does.

 

I just see a bunch of silliness here. What's next? Talking about circulating the blood without the heart beating? Maybe we can talk about digestion-gong that does not involve the stomach at some point.

The only silliness now going on is attacking a link meant to clarify the points being made. You should of stopped while you were clearly ahead in worthwhile comments instead of attacks on links. The devil is in the details in some cases.

[Aetherous]

Also, what the embryonic breathing state reveals is that mind is breath is energy. So a person could be doing something that has nothing to do with breathing or posture...fully using the mind...and they could be doing qigong. Or even if they were cultivating no-mind, that would still count as qigong for such a person. Because their mind/breath/energy is being affected due to something they are doing.

 

Anyway, this is my unwavering view. Enjoy...or don't.

[Baguakid]

You guys have not yet "got" what I have been saying. Non-Breath based Qigong means just that. No attention, modification, or otherwise is given to the breath. Breathing is natural and that's it.

 

LBDaoist. You can laugh all you want but you are closing the door on another valid, quite valid method.

 

ChiDragon. You have glossed over the links I posted as push hands. This is not the main purpose of me showing the links.

 

You guys are leaving out "Universal Qi". Non-Breath based Qigong is achieved by alignment between Heaven and Earth. The two links I posted are examples of Masters who use this method of Qigong.

 

There is so much you all are leaving out which clearly shows what you've been exposed to. Keep your minds open, look deeper.

[寒月 Hanyue]

This is one of the main differences of the practices that were part of a tradition, and the derived versions that were promoted for health by the Peoples republic in 1949.

 

For example, awareness and observation of breathing (as a natural and rythmical physiological process (others can and are used for the same reasons))as a vehicle for awakening presence and deepening consciousness is not the same as practicising breathing methods/patterns.

 

This whole breathing, no breathing is daft. If you are alive you are breathing. No one is arguing that qigong does not involve breathing (even embyronic breathing is breathing). That is like saying qigong does not involve the body. Yes you can debate to the extent that is it involved, and in which ways it is engaged with or even the reasons as to why. But if you have it, it is involved. The point is whether or not you are focused upon it or specifically trying to do something with it and why.

 

The definition that qigong equals breathing methods, and practices that do not focus upon CONSCIOUSLY controlling the breath are not qigong is preposterous, simply because the term qigong was adopted in 1949 to be a catch all term for ALL of the various religious cultivation, health preservation, and martial training methods.

 

Best,

Edited August 10, 2011 by snowmonki

[Golden Path]

You've clearly not read Grandmaster Feng Zhi Qiang's book on the subject then. Let me quote:

 

"Forget about breathing. You will breath naturally."

YES, this is correct.

 

In true neidan methods, breathing is not used.

[ChiDragon]

Let me try to explain briefly why Chi Kung is the practice in breathing. First, let's see how the Chinese express breathing. They say it in two characters, 呼吸(hu1 xi1).

 

呼(hu1): Exhale

吸(xi1): Inhale

氣(chi): Air

 

呼氣(hu1): Exhale air

吸氣(xi1): Inhale air

 

Hence 呼吸(hu1 xi1) is exhale and inhale.

 

When the ancient Chinese practice 呼吸(hu1 xi1) deeply and slowly and discovered they had developed a tremendous of body strength or energy. Since they don't have any scientific knowledge to explain to them how was all these energy were developed inside their bodies, so, they came up with all kinds of tales.

 

In the ancient times, the Chinese only knew they were existed between Heaven and Earth. So they considered themselves as Heaven-Human-Earth are united as one unity. So, the source of air(chi) they breathe has to come from Heaven and Earth. The source of air from Heaven was called the Chi of Heaven(天氣, tian1 chi); and from Earth was called Chi of Earth(地氣, di4 chi). They thought after breathing the (天氣, tian1 chi) and Earth(地氣, di4 chi) inside their bodies, these two chi's become a 和氣(harmonious chi). The 和氣(harmonious chi) then is circulating inside the body to give them a tremendous body energy.

 

This 氣(Chi) idea was in the mind of the Chinese for a long time and still is. At first, the ancient practice 呼吸(hu1 xi1), exhale and inhale. When they inhale with the abdomen fully expanded was called 納(na4) and exhale with the abdomen tucked in was called 吐(tu3). Hence, the practice of exhale/inhale was called 吐納(tu3 na4). Some place along the line, 吐納(tu3 na4) ended up by calling it 氣功(Chi Kung). The idea is still known as exhaling and inhaling air.

 

Originally, Chi is air; but the term 氣(Chi) was translated as "energy" into English. Now-a-days, the Chinese tend to call it energy too. However, the non-English speaking Chi Kung masters still referred as air. At the present, the term Chi in the west is "energy" and in the mind of the Chinese is either air or energy. For the most convenience, it was easier for the westerner to be accepted as energy because Chi does generate lots of body energy. Finally, let's not forget that the energy was obtained from breathing the air in space plus the food we ate, shall we give a little credit to "breathing" when we practice Chi Kung. After all, that was where the Chi came from, AIR....

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

A word about "breathing", it is an esoteric term for all Chi Kung practitioners. The term "breathing" was understood as "abdominal breathing" to a Chi Kung practitioner. The abdominal breathing method is the ultimate goal of Chi Kung. If one talks about Chi Kung without knowing what "abdominal breathing" was, one just get ignored.

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Golden Path]

Yes, when breathing, an external qi is absorbed from the air, and this is post-heaven qi (气 or 气)

But if some of qigong is used this principle as the main method, this is wrong, this distortion and going away from the traditional methods of the neidan. Flee from such masters away.

 

On the other hand, is now to find the right methods ... everywhere and global ignorance of these matters.

In the ancient times, the Chinese only knew they were existed between Heaven and Earth. So they considered themselves as Heaven-Human-Earth are united as one unity. So, the source of air(chi) they breathe has to come from Heaven and Earth. The source of air from Heaven was called the Chi of Heaven(天氣, tian1 chi); and from Earth was called Chi of Earth(地氣, di4 chi). They thought after breathing the (天氣, tian1 chi) and Earth(地氣, di4 chi) inside their bodies, these two chi's become a 和氣(harmonious chi). The 和氣(harmonious chi) then is circulating inside the body to give them a tremendous body energy.

In the ancient times mainly used 炁 (preheaven energy), but not 气 (post-heaven). All other- fantasy.

[Aetherous]

This whole breathing, no breathing is daft. If you are alive you are breathing. No one is arguing that qigong does not involve breathing (even embyronic breathing is breathing).

 

I am.

 

Embryonic breathing is not breathing. No ifs ands buts about it. One of its characteristics is that the person isn't inhaling or exhaling whatsoever. Those who disagree haven't experienced embryonic breathing, period.

 

But I don't need to repeat this anymore...apparently only myself and one other person here on taobums have experienced this. Hopefully others can practice correctly and get it.

[mjjbecker]

Let me try to explain briefly why Chi Kung is the practice in breathing. First, let's see how the Chinese express breathing. They say it in two characters, 呼吸(hu1 xi1).

 

呼(hu1): Exhale

吸(xi1): Inhale

氣(chi): Air

 

呼氣(hu1): Exhale air

吸氣(xi1): Inhale air

 

Hence 呼吸(hu1 xi1) is exhale and inhale.

 

When the ancient Chinese practice 呼吸(hu1 xi1) deeply and slowly and discovered they had developed a tremendous of body strength or energy. Since they don't have any scientific knowledge to explain to them how was all these energy were developed inside their bodies, so, they came up with all kinds of tales.

 

In the ancient times, the Chinese only knew they were existed between Heaven and Earth. So they considered themselves as Heaven-Human-Earth are united as one unity. So, the source of air(chi) they breathe has to come from Heaven and Earth. The source of air from Heaven was called the Chi of Heaven(天氣, tian1 chi); and from Earth was called Chi of Earth(地氣, di4 chi). They thought after breathing the (天氣, tian1 chi) and Earth(地氣, di4 chi) inside their bodies, these two chi's become a 和氣(harmonious chi). The 和氣(harmonious chi) then is circulating inside the body to give them a tremendous body energy.

 

This 氣(Chi) idea was in the mind of the Chinese for a long time and still is. At first, the ancient practice 呼吸(hu1 xi1), exhale and inhale. When they inhale with the abdomen fully expanded and called 吐(tu3) and exhale with the abdomen tucked in was called 納(na4). Hence, the practice of exhale/inhale was called 吐納(tu3 na4). Some place along the line, 吐納(tu3 na4) ended up by it calling 氣功(Chi Kung). The idea is till known as exhaling and inhaling air.

 

Originally, Chi is air; but the term 氣(Chi) was translated as "energy" into English. Now-a-days, the Chinese tend to call it energy too. However, the non-English speaking Chi Kung masters still referred as air. At the present, the term Chi in the west is "energy" and in the mind of the Chinese is either air or energy. For the most convenience, it was easier for the westerner to be accepted as energy because Chi does generate lots of body energy. Finally, let's not forget that the energy was obtained from breathing the air in space plus the food we ate, shall we give a little credit to "breathing" when we practice Chi Kung. After all, that was where the Chi came from, AIR....

 

It would seem certain types of qigong generate a lot of hot air also.

 

Those of us here that have tried to help you have made the effort to learn qigong from legitimate masters and lineages. Whether you like this fact or not, we know more about the subject than you do. Your putting up a few Chinese characters and repeating some stuff you've read in books is a really pitiful effort in comparison. Some of us here have travelled thousands and thousands of miles to learn and spent many hours over the years practising. Your knowledge and understanding doesn't compare.

 

That you assume you know more because you are a native of the culture is a common enough mistake-not just with Chinese people, but also those from other countries that assume non-ethnic people couldn't possibly grasp 'their culture'. Mistake it is though.

 

You can chose to ignore other opinions, or you could go and actually educate yourself on the subject. Your choice. Just don't think that consistently repeating the same thing over and over is going to change anything.

[Enishi]

Breathing, visualization and mental direction can be like the initial key that starts an engine, but after that the process itself must take over, otherwise you are only controlling chi that has a low vibration. Getting transmission from a teacher who can help you link your "tools" to the higher process is key.

 

For instance, you might try to visualize the fire element until the tendons in your face are standing out, but if you can't energetically connect to the TRUE fire element your visualization will be just a dim filter of the real thing.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Enishi

[ChiDragon]

It would seem certain types of qigong generate a lot of hot air also.

 

Those of us here that have tried to help you have made the effort to learn qigong from legitimate masters and lineages. Whether you like this fact or not, we know more about the subject than you do. Your putting up a few Chinese characters and repeating some stuff you've read in books is a really pitiful effort in comparison. Some of us here have travelled thousands and thousands of miles to learn and spent many hours over the years practising. Your knowledge and understanding doesn't compare.

 

That you assume you know more because you are a native of the culture is a common enough mistake-not just with Chinese people, but also those from other countries that assume non-ethnic people couldn't possibly grasp 'their culture'. Mistake it is though.

 

You can chose to ignore other opinions, or you could go and actually educate yourself on the subject. Your choice. Just don't think that consistently repeating the same thing over and over is going to change anything.

 

mjjbecker...

Yes, all the things you had learned do compare. I am hearing them all my life almost. Most of the Chinese were told that way too because that was how the Chi Kung masters were taught. I just don't buy this idea just like you don't buy mine. However, there is another side of it that you will never be told. I am here just to mention it to put in my two cents worth; but you have to compare it yourself and make your own judgment. May be it would be something that you might want to consider or just put it behind your head.

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

I am.

 

My apologies, please as you were

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

Yes, when breathing, an external qi is absorbed from the air, and this is post-heaven qi (气 or 气)

But if some of qigong is used this principle as the main method, this is wrong, this distortion and going away from the traditional methods of the neidan. Flee from such masters away.

 

On the other hand, is now to find the right methods ... everywhere and global ignorance of these matters.

 

In the ancient times mainly used 炁 (preheaven energy), but not 气 (post-heaven). All other- fantasy.

If you want to know more about Chi...Link: Chi

[寒月 Hanyue]

Does no one else find it ironic that the reason a group of practitioners was brought together to synthesize a standard and give it a name was to make it less confusing when opened out to the public at large??

 

The name they came up with, "qigong"

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

It seems to me that most of the people would like to leave everything as is.

 

Is there anybody would like to discussion Chi Kung scientifically to investigate why it is giving us a healthy body.....????

 

 

PS....

I know, I'm a pain in the "S"....

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChiDragon